Guest TPAFKATS Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 So just to clarify. The Natsi have no credibile plan to raise the extra £15bn per annum that they currently spend but don't earn. Am I right in saying that? So, £15bn of cuts. Where do the Natsis plan to start with that one? Pensions? The NHS? Apologies for quoting the trolling liar, but can anyone provide figures for these Scottish Government projects that he claims UK gov contributed to? Hiya Stuart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 5 hours ago, tony soprano said: Get someone to read my post and explain it to you Stuart. I read it fine. See the beauty of being part of the UK is we do control our own currency. We're able to make decisions on quantitative easing, printing money, and controlling our own interest rate to stimulate growth when needed. The SNP have no proposal that suggests that an Independent Scotland would have the same ability. We're told we'll be using Sterling, or the Euro - neither of which will allow us to print more money to pay off debts. So therefore an Independent Scotland WOULD have to do what the UK currently doesn't for very obvious reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 hour ago, tony soprano said: Hiya Stuart! Hello Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 I read it fine. See the beauty of being part of the UK is we do control our own currency. We're able to make decisions on quantitative easing, printing money, and controlling our own interest rate to stimulate growth when needed. The SNP have no proposal that suggests that an Independent Scotland would have the same ability. We're told we'll be using Sterling, or the Euro - neither of which will allow us to print more money to pay off debts. So therefore an Independent Scotland WOULD have to do what the UK currently doesn't for very obvious reasons. Sterling is in freefall, yet you chose to promote it as an advantage for Scotland staying within the UK.You're not very bright are you. Is this why you aren't answering the other questions being asked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Simple to make up the shortfall re out going to income. Working people pay a bit more tax since the tax level is low considering the huge amount of services that is avaliable to us all. Also closed all those tax dodges that are available on the public as well as the companies. If that f up some of our ex saints stars well hard f to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, tony soprano said: Sterling is in freefall, yet you chose to promote it as an advantage for Scotland staying within the UK. You're not very bright are you. Is this why you aren't answering the other questions being asked? Dear oh dear. First off in the SNP White Paper printed prior to the Independence Referendum Alex Salmond and the party leadership were absolutely insistent that an Independent Scotland would use Sterling. They were so categorical in their insistence they stated that even if the Bank Of England and the rUK denied them use of Sterling they would use it anyway. Back in 2013 Sterling was trading quite strongly with the rest of the world. Today as you rightly observe it's trading at a much lower value. However what you appear to be proposing here, is cashing out your Sterling at absolutely the worst time possible to switch to AN Other currency - the SNP claimed it would be the Euro at their latest party conference - with the undeniable effect that all Scots will immediately be worse off, and the new Scottish Government would be unable to control matters such as printing more money, devaluing the currency, or lowering, or raising interest rates. What a car crash that would be for Scotland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 33 minutes ago, renfrew said: Simple to make up the shortfall re out going to income. Working people pay a bit more tax since the tax level is low considering the huge amount of services that is avaliable to us all. Also closed all those tax dodges that are available on the public as well as the companies. If that f up some of our ex saints stars well hard f to them. Aye well paying more tax would work. What percentage rate would you tax the average man on the street to balance the books? 35%? 40%? As for companies well if you can get multi nationals to pay all their tax in Scotland instead of shifting their profits it to low tax economies like Switzerland then brilliant, particularly if you also are raising tax rates at the same time. The SNP however have a policy of funding multi nationals who set up in Scotland by giving them subsidies so high it offsets their tax liabilities for trading in Scotland. Don't believe me? Just look into the deal Alex Salmond struck with Amazon. Edited October 23, 2016 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepaisleypanda Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, Stuart Dickson said: Dear oh dear. First off in the SNP White Paper printed prior to the Independence Referendum Alex Salmond and the party leadership were absolutely insistent that an Independent Scotland would use Sterling. They were so categorical in their insistence they stated that even if the Bank Of England and the rUK denied them use of Sterling they would use it anyway. Back in 2013 Sterling was trading quite strongly with the rest of the world. Today as you rightly observe it's trading at a much lower value. However what you appear to be proposing here, is cashing out your Sterling at absolutely the worst time possible to switch to AN Other currency - the SNP claimed it would be the Euro at their latest party conference - with the undeniable effect that all Scots will immediately be worse off, and the new Scottish Government would be unable to control matters such as printing more money, devaluing the currency, or lowering, or raising interest rates. What a car crash that would be for Scotland. The pont was - We can use WHATEVER currency we like! - As can any other independent country!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, thepaisleypanda said: The pont was - We can use WHATEVER currency we like! - As can any other independent country!! Ok, well lets say that is correct, even though it probably isn't advisable to hand over total control of all your economic levers to someone else - how would it help an Independent Scotland raise the extra £15Bn per annum it needs just to stand still? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepaisleypanda Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Just now, Stuart Dickson said: Ok, well lets say that is correct, even though it probably isn't advisable to hand over total control of all your economic levers to someone else - how would it help an Independent Scotland raise the extra £15Bn per annum it needs just to stand still? Erm, how do we do that at the moment?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, thepaisleypanda said: Erm, how do we do that at the moment?? I don't understand your question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Ok, well lets say that is correct, even though it probably isn't advisable to hand over total control of all your economic levers to someone else - how would it help an Independent Scotland raise the extra £15Bn per annum it needs just to stand still? You won't get an answer... Just more deflection, abuse or avoidance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thepaisleypanda Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 If we would be in debt taking on independence, then surely we would be no worse off than being in debt under the union? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, thepaisleypanda said: If we would be in debt taking on independence, then surely we would be no worse off than being in debt under the union? Really? You think this? The UK operates with a deficit of 4% of GDP. An Independent Scotland running with a £15Bn deficit would be running a deficit of 9% of GDP. That puts an Independent Scotland in a more alarming situation than Greece, and we all know how the EU has dealt with them. So yes, immediately you'd be worse off and looking for massive austerity cuts or huge tax increases, or both. On top of that Sterling is still seen as one of the safe bets in terms of investment. The UK has been able to issue Gilts and Bonds to cover our national borrowings offering a very low rate of interest, trading off our reputation in the world. Scotland wouldn't have this reputation so it's easy to assume that an Independent Scotland would have to pay far higher interest repayments on any borrowings than it currently does as part of the UK. So unless you can find a way for the country to raise more than £15bn per annum from a massive increase in GDP, or from huge austerity cuts and tax increases, Scotland would be much worse off. You could argue that Scotland remaining in the EU may see some of that problem with GDP offset as some companies who wish to trade within the EU may relocate to Scotland, although why they would do that ahead of Ireland, Poland, Czech Republic etc, where there are cheaper workforces available is anyones guess, but you'd also have to factor in the damage that separating from the rest of the UK would do to Scottish trade to by far our biggest customer base.bar none. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 11 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: You won't get an answer... Just more deflection, abuse or avoidance. Yeah I know Brian. Its how these Nationalists work. I've got to admit this Ladybird book on basic economics has been a god send. It's aimed at 5 - 8 year olds so even I can understand it. Maybe I should buy a few copies and send Alex Salmond, Nicola Sturgeon, Derek MacKay etc one each. I'm just concerned it might be too tough for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salmonbuddie Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Yeah I know Brian. Its how these Nationalists work. Carlsberg admits defeat as it cedes its "Irony" crown to StuD to prevent any further drop in share value... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said: The UK operates with a deficit of 4% of GDP. An Independent Scotland running with a £15Bn deficit would be running a deficit of 9% of GDP. That puts an Independent Scotland in a more alarming situation than Greece, and we all know how the EU has dealt with them What are you basing your projected calculation of GDP in an independent Scotland on? Edited October 23, 2016 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 26 minutes ago, Drew said: What are you basing your projected calculation of GDP in an independent Scotland on? The figure is widely quoted Drew.The Institute of Fiscal Studies issued a report saying that the Scottish Deficit versus GDP was now three times greater than that of the Uk as a whole. That report was issued in March 2016. There are many excellent news reports across a variety of media that accept those figures as fact and even George Kerevan at The National has accepted them as fact, before writing a rather bizarre piece saying that running a deficit of 9.7% of GDP, although high, is about right. He cites Japan, running a deficit of 7.1% of GDP getting praised for what it does and he says the UK should follow Scotlands lead in spending far more than it earns to boost our Public Sector. You'd think with all the Natsis on here telling us that George Osbourne's failure to balance the books to be a criminal disaster, that the last thing they'd expect would be the SNP member on the Treasury Select Committee and chief economist expert on "Oor Stoormer" to be criticising George Osbourne for not borrowing more, but that is indeed what he has done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insaintee Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 11 hours ago, BuddieinEK said: So technically, a deficit of 8% would indeed see us "better off". Nice. How do we pay off our debts though? The general idea is you don't. Money is essentially debt. If you pay it off then it leads to massive deflation . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 You won't get an answer... Just more deflection, abuse or avoidance. He gets answers, however he won't answer any questions put to him. It's just paragraphs of, I believe the appropriate term might be filibuster, with the same pish about 15bn.The 15bn isn't real so its irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said: The figure is widely quoted Drew.The Institute of Fiscal Studies issued a report saying that the Scottish Deficit versus GDP was now three times greater than that of the Uk as a whole. That report was issued in March 2016. There are many excellent news reports across a variety of media that accept those figures as fact and even George Kerevan at The National has accepted them as fact, before writing a rather bizarre piece saying that running a deficit of 9.7% of GDP, although high, is about right. He cites Japan, running a deficit of 7.1% of GDP getting praised for what it does and he says the UK should follow Scotlands lead in spending far more than it earns to boost our Public Sector. You'd think with all the Natsis on here telling us that George Osbourne's failure to balance the books to be a criminal disaster, that the last thing they'd expect would be the SNP member on the Treasury Select Committee and chief economist expert on "Oor Stoormer" to be criticising George Osbourne for not borrowing more, but that is indeed what he has done. That doesn't answer my question, though. I asked how you have come up with a GDP calculation for an independent Scotland of the future. Like me, you have absolutely no idea what the detail of an economic settlement based on the share of national debt and assets would be. That is why I am not guessing what a GDP calculation might be, much less how one might extrapolate a national deficit from this. Again, you are selectively snatching at any available analysis that suits your argument, when, in reality, you really don't have the first clue what an independent Scotland might look like. My position is that I really don't know whether it would work out for the best in economic terms, but I'm willing to take that punt based on how abject this toxic union has become. Frankly, I don't identify with the UK in any way, whatsoever. I want out of it. It is also worth pointing out that comparisons with the situation in Greece are absolutely spurious. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the recent history of the Greek economy would know this. Edited October 23, 2016 by Drew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Drew said: That doesn't answer my question, though. I asked how you have come up with a GDP calculation for an independent Scotland of the future. Like me, you have absolutely no idea what the detail of an economic settlement based of the share of national debt and assets would be. That is why I am not guessing what a GDP calculation might be, much less how one might extrapolate a national deficit from this. Again, you are selectively snatching at any available analysis that suits your argument, when, in reality, you really don't have the first clue what an independent Scotland might look like. My position is that I really don't know whether it would work out for the best in economic terms, but I'm willing to take that punt based on how abject this toxic union has become. Frankly, I don't identify with the UK in any way, whatsoever. I want out of it. It is also worth pointing out that comparisons with the situation in Greece are absolutely spurious. Anyone with a modicum of understanding of the recent history of the Greek economy would know this. You're right, I've no idea what an Independent Scotlands future GDP will be. However we do know what is widely accepted to be the current situation and that is that Scotland's annual budget deficit runs at around 9% - 9.7% of GDP. That's a frightening figure and one of the highest annual budget deficits in the world and it's not fictitious either. It's a real figure based on the geographical share of oil tax revenues - best case scenario for an Independent Scotland, well it is unless you really are living in la la land like Rev Stewart Campbell and his followers. You want to take a punt with your livelihood, your children's livelihood and their children's livelihood.. I get it Drew. You are so anti-English that you'll accept being told what to do by anyone else. It seems a bit prejudicial of you, I'm sure you could find many fellow UK residents that you would identify with and get on well with, but who am I to deny you your bigotry. I'm even sure that given half a chance you'd discover that there are many English, Northern Irish and Welsh people who you have a great deal more in common with than your average Lithuanian, Croatian, Pole or even German or Italian. You may even discover that you share a common language and 300 years of common history. Personally I don't find the United Kingdom toxic in any way shape or form. I have many English friends, work colleagues and even family members. I work for a German owned company that was founded by two Englishmen in Lancashire. The company still has an HQ in England. In common with many, including your favourite football club, I buy a lot of products from English companies and when I had my business the vast majority of my customer base were from England. I don't feel prejudiced or bigoted towards anyone in the UK at all (except Geordies, they really are f**kwits, and Scousers - I just can't talk to a Scouser without feeling the need to immediately go and wash afterwards ) and I want my two children to enjoy all the opportunities to develop and progress in life as I have done, and as many generations of my family have done and I would only feel like taking a punt on Scottish Independence if the SNP could actually make a credible case showing in detail how we would all (and I do mean ALL Scots) be wealthier outside of the UK union. Edited October 23, 2016 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 Okay, I feel dirty, but I'll bite. Show me one post I've made that is anti-English. One. A solitary post would do. If the best argument you can come up with is to accuse me of being a bigot, it seems to me that you really are toiling. Incidentally, when you refer to 'all Scots", don't you mean everyone who lives in Scotland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 23, 2016 Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Drew said: Okay, I feel dirty, but I'll bite. Show me one post I've made that is anti-English. One. A solitary post would do. If the best argument you can come up with is to accuse me of being a bigot, it seems to me that you really are toiling. Incidentally, when you refer to 'all Scots", don't you mean everyone who lives in Scotland? Ok I'll give you that. Everyone living in Scotland. Fair enough. You'll need to give me your comments on the Union though, Lets face it Drew, you have been happy enough to profit from the UK Union, just like me. But now you want to deny our kids the same protection, stability and security that was afforded to us and to many generations before us. And for what reason? Well you said it was because you believe the UK Union to be toxic and that you don't identify with any part of it, and you are happy to take a punt on anything that isn't the UK no matter the cost or financial implications. Surely you have to admit your prejudice has coloured your judgement Edited October 23, 2016 by Stuart Dickson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Dickson Posted October 24, 2016 Report Share Posted October 24, 2016 IoBS, thanks for the link to that programme on how governments spend our money. Thoroughly enjoyed that. I'm not sure what I was supposed to learn from it though, or quite how you thought it backed up the case for Independence. Governments are inefficient and waste money. We all know that. Are you attempting to claim that the Scottish Government are currently wasting £15bn per annum and that come Independence Day they'll suddenly turn off all the waste, and running super efficiently we won't notice any difference in our services? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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