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shull

Thread To Discuss An Independent Scotland.

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Yes I would agree with that but it would only be right if it were independence based on the Norwegian model.

 

 

There can be no kidding the next time . I fail to understand why Sturgeon has a fascination with Europe , an organisation which has stifled our trade and monumentally f**ked our fishing industry. .

Maybe she feels Scotland's fishing industry would be better represented by Scotland when it comes to negotiations?

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Was speaking to my daughter she told me her friends who voted No would now vote YES to get back into Europe and that is around 25 wow ! I'm surprised at that.

Obviously don't know what age she is, however most peeps under 25 seem to have voted to stay. Main reason? Ability to have free movement to work in study in 27 other countries in Europe.

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6 hours ago, zurich_allan said:

 

A one off return to the political discussion for just this one post to explain my own stance in light of the pages of discussion in this thread. Again, just my own personal opinion.

 

What did I vote in the 2014 referendum? I voted no.

 

Do I regret that? No I don't, because that was the only option at that time to guarantee EU Membership at that moment in time. That and, also in my opinion, the white paper was one of the most amateur documents I've ever seen for such an important and life-changing decision.

 

To repeat - the option I chose at that time was to remain part of both the UK and EU.

 

That is no longer an option. It is obtuse to infer that the political climate is the same now, 2 years on. In the general election, the majority of Scotland rejected the Conservatives and the concept of the EU referendum that went along with them (it WAS part of their manifesto, so Scotland directly rejected it). Regardless, we were forced (democracy?) into having to make that choice. Scotland rejected that choice, demonstrating for the second major election in a row how fundamentally different the political ideals of those north and south of the border have become. I don't see why this is such an emotive issue, it's simply factual. All one has to do is look at the election results map for both elections to see how vastly different the ideals are. Arguably, the Union in just a short 21 months or so has become untenable, or at least requires a radical rethink more than the current constitutional arrangement.

 

You see, here's the thing: I'm not and never have been an entrenched voter, nor a pedant. I'm a realist who is completely open to critically considering all options open to me at any given time, recognising that political climate indisputably DOES change. I don't change on a whim, on a populist swing, or for any other reason than I've weighed up the pro's and con's of the issues at that time in depth, then decided accordingly.

 

So that brings us back to now. The option of staying in the UK and the EU no longer exists. So I have to decide what I think is more important here. In my opinion that would NOW (not previously) be to leave the UK if that becomes an option, and negotiate a deal ideally for full EU Membership, or for the best bilateral agreement package possible. I believe that the economy in the UK / England without a proper EU agreement (which I now believe will be difficult in a number of areas for a variety of reasons) will be in a very, very bad state of affairs for a long time. However, I would still like to see a 'white paper' put forward by the independence movement that stands up to full scrutiny more than the last one to fully cement my vote.

 

So in short, I do not, nor have I ever voted SNP. I would likely now vote for independence as I don't now see this as a party political issue, which in my opinion it still was to an extent in 2014. Upon any potential independence I don't know as yet who I would vote for as I do not (nor does anybody) know what parties or candidates would stand.

 

I see the circumstances as being way beyond materially different now in comparison to what they were just 2 years ago; certainly in a constitutional sense that is simply beyond argument. I see it as right and proper that the question is put back to the Scottish public. Should that result in independence? Fine, I would be happy that moving forward, EU Membership is a target to work toward. Should the Union be retained? Also fine, as then the will of the Scottish people has then been asserted under the new constitution arrangement, and it can be put to bed for decades to come.

 

No emotion from me, just my own cold, hard analysis and my own opinion. I've been as complete as possible as it will be my only post on the matter.

Jesus wept. What a final sentence. Get over yourself FFS.

:lol:

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2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Jesus wept. What a final sentence. Get over yourself FFS.

:lol:

Was it only the final sentence that rattled your cage? ZA has regularly given us incisive posts with his slant as a legal eagle. One of the good guys. Did you only read the last sentence? Or does your emoticon indicate that you were genuinely amused? Hard to know with you.

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If Scotland do a deal with the EU to stay in the EU during the negotiations to Brexit and this is a good deal for Scotland. I can see us having a second referendum where we split from the UK. 

England are delighted to have their country back. They hated being ruled from Brussels. However they've enjoyed much more independence than Scotland ever had since then Union of the crowns 300 years ago. 

England has made a huge mistake that was driven by immigration. America are fighting an election on the same issue. Can't people see that the Donald Trump's and Boris Johnson's / Nigel Farage's of this world build their support on division and hatred?

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1 hour ago, shull said:

Those who rule here, there and everywhere in the World will do what they f*cking want , despite the Drama Queens in the Media, on the streets and on here.

:lol:

 

To a certain extent that is true . We only get to vote once every five years , in-between times it is a dictatorship but we do know who the dictators are . Laws and policy are put through parliament .  .

In Europe you cannot vote out the policy/law makers(Commissioners) , most of us don't even know who these people are because they are totally unaccountable . They constantly make laws to constrict your freedom as an individual . For instance , that have written over fifty laws about bed linen - and other ludicrous things like that . .

The reason British politicians like Europe is because it is a place where failed UK politicians can be put out to fodder on the European gravy train - far more lucrative than the House of Lords , the Kinnocks for instance were made millionaires by Europe . There are over 10,000 Eurocrat's earning more than the British PM. .

Europe is a racket. .a well organised , well oiled , racket. .

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13 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

In indy ref once in a generation the majority of Scots elected to remain in the UK.

In the EU Referendum the majority of the UK elected to leave the EU.

I have typed that very slowly in the hope that you can keep up and understand a very simple democratic process.

It really is not hard to understand if you are willing to try!

The Independence referendum was fought along the lines of continued EU membership. Many "non  Scottish" residents/students were allowed to vote. I'm certain most, if not all, voted NO on the assumption that a YES vote would affect that status. Many young Scots did so also. Now that it would possibly work in completely the opposite way how do you think it would affect their decision?

Why would you deny the democratic right of those, and others, to make a choice under a new set of circumstances? It's not exactly a small change.

Edited by stlucifer

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2 hours ago, shull said:

Those who rule here, there and everywhere in the World will do what they f*cking want , despite the Drama Queens in the Media, on the streets and on here.

:lol:

 

Vested interests, now and as always. The ordinary working chap or chapette just need to get on with it.

So what's happening  ^_^ 

 

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4 hours ago, RickMcD said:

 ZA has regularly given us incisive posts with his slant as a legal eagle. One of the good guys.

Crrrriiiiiiinnnnnngge.

How on earth can we expect ZA to get his head out of his own arse when he has you in the way, half way up his colon.

:lol:

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Crrrriiiiiiinnnnnngge.

How on earth can we expect ZA to get his head out of his own arse when he has you in the way, half way up his colon.

:lol:

You need to wind it in, oaky, Rick's bang on. The law's not like science, there are many interpretations of legalese and many of those are as valid as each other until precedent is set. z_a usually gives us an informed and balanced view of these interpretations.

You should try being informed and balanced, sometime, does wonders for your blood pressure...

:)

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1 hour ago, salmonbuddie said:

You need to wind it in, oaky, Rick's bang on. The law's not like science,

Where did I say the law was like science?

That wasn't the point of my response to him.

Not like you to completely miss the point but go ahead......

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19 hours ago, linwood buddie said:

If we go for  Referendum and decide to leave the UK and rejoin  the Eurozone we will be forced to take on the Euro as currency. 

And we'll have to change currency when driving to England...possibly through border controls. What a clusterf**k!!

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2 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Arbroath is the east right enough........................:lol:

No in Saudi...................yet. :P

 

I suppose any man who has an avatar of himself wearing a lampshade canny be that dangerous.

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There is absolutely no chance of Scottish Independence now. None at all. Perhaps if the referendum was yesterday when the pound was tumbling and some of the doomsday predictions were coming true, when there appeared to be knee jerk anger across Scotland and when people feared that Farage was going to take over the UK in some sort of coop, but none of that looks in any way likely now. The pound stabilised and was on the way back by lunchtime yesterday and the stock market followed. Many City of London experts were saying that this exit could be superb news for the UK as now the City of London would be able to trade freely without interference from the EU. I've even seen the changing mood amongst some of my nationalist friends on Social Media from wanting to throw themselves off the Forth Rail Bridge at 8am yesterday to seeing how this resilient nation will sort out all the problems and roar back stronger. I've even seen a growing number of comments from people saying that they voted Yes last time, but they would never do that again. 

Think about it this way. It'll take at least a year to 18 months to set up an independence referendum - that's assuming that it would be perceived as lawful to do so given that there is no mandate for a referendum from the Scottish electorate. By that time all the bumps will have been ironed out, the UK will have set up the various trade deals, people will know the sky hasn't fallen down and we'll have seen the change have very little effect on our day to day lives. We'll also have seen the EU in meltdown, at least one more massive Greek bailout that we'll have managed to dodge a bullet from since we're leaving, we'll also probably have seen other EU states demanding their own EU referendums with there being every possibility others will want to leave the club too. There's also a very strong possibility that the Scottish economy will still be extremely weak because of low oil prices, and possibly lower than usual whisky export figures whilst trade deals get sorted. You'd have to have your hatred of the English pretty heavily ingrained to want to vote to leave the UK especially since any deal with the EU would obviously have to mean adopting the Euro as your currency. 

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