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Thread To Discuss An Independent Scotland.

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3 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

It is indeed interesting, but does that not presuppose that the whole of Scotland is unified in the desire for independence?

The UK as it is does not serve the majority... He's right.

If we all put the same amount of effort into campaigning to fix it and did so in unity, maybe... just maybe, there could be a better outcome for a much larger number of people?

Yes and that's the entire problem for those advocating independence. There isn't the support for it yet. Let alone nonsense about simply declaring independence.

If Yes was polling at over 70% then I'd say that simply declaring independence was the way to go bu we are probably an actual generation or more away from that sort of support.

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The SNP need to stop wittering on about Indyref2 having to happen right now, drop the grievance politics and demonstrate that they have listened to and accepted the 2014 result before voters start switching off.
They then need to lay out the case for Indyref2 towards the end of this decade at least to show they've at least made an attempt at waiting a generation. They need to let Brexit bed in and work towards building the polls in their favour whilst continuing to return solid election wins.
The power to call Indyref2 should have been handed over already but it's been mixed up with actually using that power immediately and also the very real prospect of neverendums.
Grievance politics thst saw them increase their seats at WM.
Aye right.

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9 hours ago, delpierro said:

Grievance politics thst saw them increase their seats at WM.
Aye right.

I could have sworn this was a thread about Scotland gaining independence and what the SNP need to do to make that happen.

How are the SNP getting on there in the face of all the material changes since 2014?

Last I looked, polls hadn't significantly shifted in 6 years.

 

Edited by oaksoft

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7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I could have sworn this was a thread about Scotland gaining independence and what the SNP need to do to make that happen.

How are the SNP getting on there in the face of all the material changes since 2014?

Last I looked, polls hadn't significantly shifted in 6 years.

 

The decade leading up to 2014 referendum averaged 28.2% support for an independent Scotland. In 2019 standardised question polls, most of which excluding 16 & 17 year old's (which are believed to more favour independence) averaged 44.6% (not excluding undecided which is about 8%).   

There has been a clear increase in support for independence in recent times. More details being made available in a referendum campaign and the undecided factor, has a very real chance of pushing this over 50% if the increase in 2014 is anything to go by. I find it strange anyone can argue against the democratic mandate for another vote.  

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23 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

No it wouldn't.

The folks passionately supporting Indyref2 would just find another way of justifying it IMO.

Very true but they wouldn't have a valid case for the demand. It would have been much less vocally supported.

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A lot of what you say makes total sense and is what I too believe.

I was chatting to a local Labour MP candidate for ages before the last election.

She asked my thoughts (unusual for any politician but she is refreshingly open and transparent).

I told her I feared Labour was fighting the wrong battle by seeing defeating the Tories as a measure of success.

To regain credibility and control, they had to win votes from the SNP in Scotland and from a number of parties in England and Wales.

Throughout the UK, people are rebelling at the Londoncentric politics of Westminster.

Not just in Scotland... But all over the UK.

That is a contributing factor in people in the North East of England voting Tory knowing their grandparents will be turning in their grave.

Labour HAS to come out and apologize. Say they got it wrong and now see that the current political system is good for nothing but division and a few rich people.

It needs to convince people that they are determined to return control of local affairs to local regions by creating more local assemblies (expensive buildings not needed) and devolving power to those assemblies.

The power of the collective supporting the needs of local areas and individuals.

That way, local councils can respond to local needs.

A federal system throughout the UK is the only way of saving it... Buy politicians are too blind or too scared to advocate as much.

Had that happened then I believe a lot of the disillusioned voters who voted SNP would have reconsidered.

Problem now is, everything that is happening is playing right into the hands of the separatists, and it is becoming increasingly more difficult to counter their demands for another referendum.

I believe this is totally the wrong time for one... but my gut feeling is that we are heading towards one regardless.
"Separatists "

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3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

The decade leading up to 2014 referendum averaged 28.2% support for an independent Scotland. In 2019 standardised question polls, most of which excluding 16 & 17 year old's (which are believed to more favour independence) averaged 44.6% (not excluding undecided which is about 8%).   

There has been a clear increase in support for independence in recent times. More details being made available in a referendum campaign and the undecided factor, has a very real chance of pushing this over 50% if the increase in 2014 is anything to go by. I find it strange anyone can argue against the democratic mandate for another vote.  

I am not arguing against Scotland being handed that power. My problem is one of the timing of any vote itself.

The decade leading to 2014 is irrelevant. It's whether the polls have moved significantly since the referendum.

They haven't and IMO that is what the SNP need to focus their efforts on. Grievance has got them to about 45 to 48% but something else is now needed to make the significant shift they require.

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2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I am not arguing against Scotland being handed that power. My problem is one of the timing of any vote itself.

The decade leading to 2014 is irrelevant. It's whether the polls have moved significantly since the referendum.

They haven't and IMO that is what the SNP need to focus their efforts on. Grievance has got them to about 45 to 48% but something else is now needed to make the significant shift they require.

I get that, I can see issues with the timing with all the uncertainty and turmoil currently. For me it's just not a good enough reason for SNP to abandon a manifesto promise.  

The decade before was a point of comparison. As are any poll's really. A poll isn't a be all and end all but I feel they're more than a strong enough indicator that a majority in Scotland may vote for independence given the choice. If we combine that with the SNP manifesto promise, the EU voting results in Scotland and the very clear pitfalls of the no campaign, I don't think "timing" is strong enough to overturn all of that. If SNP suddenly stopped pushing for a second vote they would be contradicting a stance that many people voted for them on just over a month ago.

As for significant shift, 45-48% I'm not sure how significant that shift is to get a majority for independence. I guess only a vote which they promised they'd fight for will tell us. 

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I am not arguing against Scotland being handed that power. My problem is one of the timing of any vote itself.

The decade leading to 2014 is irrelevant. It's whether the polls have moved significantly since the referendum.

They haven't and IMO that is what the SNP need to focus their efforts on. Grievance has got them to about 45 to 48% but something else is now needed to make the significant shift they require.

A year of BoJo and his cronies should do the trick!

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1 hour ago, BuddieinEK said:

That took longer than I expected!
emoji311.png

What term would you prefer me to use for people who want to separate Scotland from the rest of the UK?
emoji850.png

It's the connotations that go along with the word but I feel you knew that given the "that took longer than I expected" comment. 

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It's entirely normal to want your country to make its own decisions and be politically independent.
Equally, it is entirely normal to be a passionate Scot but believe if the political system changed, the benefits and security of the Union are a benifit.

Also equally, even if you don't, it is normal to resist change.

Normal is not an acceptable substitute. Sorry!

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Equally, it is entirely normal to be a passionate Scot but believe if the political system changed, the benefits and security of the Union are a benifit.

 

Also equally, even if you don't, it is normal to resist change.

 

Normal is not an acceptable substitute. Sorry!

We've been trying to change the UK political system by voting left of centre my entire adult lifetime (I'm in my 8th decade, you know), what has that got us, BiEK? An entire adult lifetime of Tory government, most of it blue, some of it red. But still Tory.

 

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We've been trying to change the UK political system by voting left of centre my entire adult lifetime (I'm in my 8th decade, you know), what has that got us, BiEK? An entire adult lifetime of Tory government, most of it blue, some of it red. But still Tory.  
Not once during my lifetime have I felt that any vote was to change the UK political system... Just to vote in a different version of the same Londoncentric lunatics!

Things have changed now.

For example...

There is a growndswell of oponion that the House of Lords is undemocratic and should be replaced.

When has that ever been an issue before?

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Not once during my lifetime have I felt that any vote was to change the UK political system... Just to vote in a different version of the same Londoncentric lunatics!

Things have changed now.

For example...

There is a growndswell of oponion that the House of Lords is undemocratic and should be replaced.

When has that ever been an issue before?
I'm sure Labour will commit to abolishing it soon.

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Not once during my lifetime have I felt that any vote was to change the UK political system... Just to vote in a different version of the same Londoncentric lunatics!

Things have changed now.

For example...

There is a growndswell of oponion that the House of Lords is undemocratic and should be replaced.

When has that ever been an issue before?
I get where you're coming from but that groundswell has been there since I first voted in a GE over 49 years ago. Still hasn't happened - and won't while there are Tories in government.

Which of the major parties in WM has zero representation in the Lords because it believes the system is wrong so won't support it?

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I get where you're coming from but that groundswell has been there since I first voted in a GE over 49 years ago. Still hasn't happened - and won't while there are Tories in government.

Which of the major parties in WM has zero representation in the Lords because it believes the system is wrong so won't support it?
I hear you.
I agree.

That's why I feel if the same passion that was put into independence in Scotland and anti immigration in England was focused on the thing that could truly unite and make a difference in what is essentially one small island with no natural borders, change could happen.

The power to make it happen and the will is there... It's just fragmented... and that's no coincidence either!

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18 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

Equally, it is entirely normal to be a passionate Scot but believe if the political system changed, the benefits and security of the Union are a benifit.

Also equally, even if you don't, it is normal to resist change.

Normal is not an acceptable substitute. Sorry!
emoji12.png

BTB disnae believe that first sentence.  :whistle
 

He claimed it was impossible for people like me - like you describe - to be a passionate Scot without going on independence marches and waving wee flags.

or just by living in Lovely London, within sound of the Brexit Bongs....  :P

 

 

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