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Thread To Discuss An Independent Scotland.

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On 1/18/2020 at 3:59 PM, Bud the Baker said:

Erm no I said you couldn't be a proud Londoner and Scot and that your Scottishness was sentimental

It's not your place to present statements like this as factual.

As much fun as it is to wind antrim up about these things, it's a pretty arrogant position.

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19 minutes ago, oaksoft said:
Quote

 

Erm no I said you couldn't be a proud Londoner and Scot and that your Scottishness was sentimental

It's not your place to present statements like this as factual.

As much fun as it is to wind antrim up about these things, it's a pretty arrogant position.

Well the backstory was @antrin complaining about having no say in the previous and upcoming Independence referendums, I pointed out he no longer lives in Scotland and that he is able to vote for the Mayor of the city where he lives.

The choices people make define them and I stand by my opinion (one which I am fully aware won't be shared by everyone), it cuts both ways I'm more than happy to accept immigrants who want to stay in Scotland as proud Scots..

Edited by Bud the Baker

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Well the backstory was [mention=15031]antrin[/mention] complaining about having no say in the previous and upcoming Independence referendums, I pointed out he no longer lives in Scotland and that he is able to vote for the Mayor of the city where he lives.
The choices people make define them and I stand by my opinion (one which I am fully aware won't be shared by everyone), it cuts both ways I'm more than happy to accept immigrants who want to stay in Scotland as proud Scots..
You missed out that he resides in Scotland for half the year.

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2 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

You missed out that he resides in Scotland for half the year. emoji6.png

I didn't know, he didn't say!

I presume he must have made a decision to make London his "official" residence.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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I dunno how often I have posted on here that I work and live in Scotland April to October.

(Mostly Inverness and Orkney now - used to go all over Scotland...  

...though I do still lead one regular group on Scottish Hills - and that can be anywhere.  This year in Galloway and Arran.)

Not that it matters in this instance as BtB is making his irrelevant objective decisions about something that is extremely subjective to me.

He simply knows not of what he speaks.

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On ‎1‎/‎19‎/‎2020 at 8:52 AM, cockles1987 said:

Wish you'd used another Tories leaflet. emoji24.png

Although I have the displeasure of knowing Mr Kerr reasonably well and for fairly long time. And although is everything you say he is, he is by no means the worst of the tories, only the most honest.

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44 minutes ago, antrin said:

I dunno how often I have posted on here that I work and live in Scotland April to October.

(Mostly Inverness and Orkney now - used to go all over Scotland...  

...though I do still lead one regular group on Scottish Hills - and that can be anywhere.  This year in Galloway and Arran.)

Not that it matters in this instance as BtB is making his irrelevant objective decisions about something that is extremely subjective to me.

He simply knows not of what he speaks.

Apologies but I've never seen this information before - maybe it was posted by bluto! :P

I still don't see how it makes my original point irrelevant as you still get a vote, in London not Scotland (which you confirmed in the original argument) which must be your choice - like I said you're not being denied a vote.

I do know of what I speak - no-one is entitled to two votes! 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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Apologies but I've never seen this information before - maybe it was posted by bluto! 
I still don't see how it makes my original point irrelevant as you still get a vote, in London not Scotland (which you confirmed in the original argument) which must be your choice - like I said you're not being denied a vote.
I do know of what I speak - no-one is entitled to two votes! 
I believe Antrin was previously highlighting that those living outside of the UK and have no residence here could vote in the Brexit referendum but he couldn't vote in the Scottish independence referendum in his circumstances.

And yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter how wrong they are.

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12 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

I believe Antrin was previously highlighting that those living outside of the UK and have no residence here could vote in the Brexit referendum but he couldn't vote in the Scottish independence referendum in his circumstances.

And yes everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter how wrong they are. emoji14.png

The circumstances being that he gets a vote in London Mayoral elections, not Scottish Independence referendums, both internal UK elections - no-one is entitled to two votes.

He was denied nothing and it's comparing apples with oranges that is wrong! emoji14.png

Edited by Bud the Baker

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

Apologies but I've never seen this information before - maybe it was posted by bluto! :P

I still don't see how it makes my original point irrelevant as you still get a vote, in London not Scotland (which you confirmed in the original argument) which must be your choice - like I said you're not being denied a vote.

I do know of what I speak - no-one is entitled to two votes! 

I was denied a vote by self-seeking politicians.

(there are no other kinds, but the point is relevant.

Civilised countries such as Ireland and France are not only capable of giving their countryfolk a vote even if they are living in London, they are proud to do so.  That is democracy in action.  It has happened for decades now.

 

THAT has always been my point.  Scotland believed it was too difficult, yet still thought it practical to sell votes buy support from students who had just arrived from... well... anywhere...

Scotland was unable to provide  a simple service for its nationals that other countries were doing.   Maybe this is a sign Scotland isn't ready for the big stage?

 

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3 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

The circumstances being that he gets a vote in London Mayoral elections, not Scottish Independence referendums - no-one is entitled to two votes.

He was denied nothing and it's comparing apples with oranges that is wrong! emoji14.png

Absurd comparison, BtB, old fruit!

What bearing does a local council election have on a "once-in-a-lifetime" referendum, other than that French and Irish people could vote on a London Mayor AND still be allowed to vote in all opportunities available in their home lands?

Or should I accept that it was just yet another thing that the SNP was incapable of organising?  :whistle

 

 

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58 minutes ago, antrin said:

Absurd comparison, BtB, old fruit!

What bearing does a local council election have on a "once-in-a-lifetime" referendum, other than that French and Irish people could vote on a London Mayor AND still be allowed to vote in all opportunities available in their home lands?

Or should I accept that it was just yet another thing that the SNP was incapable of organising?  :whistle

Except it wasn't simply the SNP (baaaaaaaaaaad!) who signed up to the terms but all the major parties and the rules are also the same for past & presumably future referendums in Northern Ireland.

Quote

Professor John Curtice cited the precedent of the Northern Ireland sovereignty referendum of 1973 (the "border poll"), which allowed only those resident in a part of the UK to vote on its sovereignty.[

Like I said comparing apples and oranges.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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4 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Well the backstory was @antrin complaining about having no say in the previous and upcoming Independence referendums, I pointed out he no longer lives in Scotland and that he is able to vote for the Mayor of the city where he lives.

The choices people make define them and I stand by my opinion (one which I am fully aware won't be shared by everyone), it cuts both ways I'm more than happy to accept immigrants who want to stay in Scotland as proud Scots..

Oh I agree that if he's declared London as his main residence then he can't legitimately complain that he had no vote in Indyref. I recall taking great pleasure in debating with him on that score.

I was talking about you apparently deigning to make proclamations on his "Scottishness". That is not your call. If you were only talking about his right to vote then I'll withdraw but it seemed pretty clear to me that you were going beyond that.

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26 minutes ago, antrin said:

I was denied a vote by self-seeking politicians.

(there are no other kinds, but the point is relevant.

Civilised countries such as Ireland and France are not only capable of giving their countryfolk a vote even if they are living in London, they are proud to do so.  That is democracy in action.  It has happened for decades now.

 

THAT has always been my point.  Scotland believed it was too difficult, yet still thought it practical to sell votes buy support from students who had just arrived from... well... anywhere...

Scotland was unable to provide  a simple service for its nationals that other countries were doing.   Maybe this is a sign Scotland isn't ready for the big stage?

 

Did you or did you not declare London as your main residence for voting?

If you did then stop bleating.

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45 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

BBC News - Scottish independence: SNP dismisses expat voting call
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480

Antrin
How long never mind the cost would it take to check 800,000 possible applications?

The terms of the referendum were agreed by all the political parties, the article also mentions the call for all of the UK to be involved however the convention is that only those resident in a part of the UK are allowed to vote on its sovereignty.

Other than @antrin's summer sleeping arrangements I stand by what I have posted.

PS - SNP baaaaaaaaad!

Edited by Bud the Baker

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13 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

BBC News - Scottish independence: SNP dismisses expat voting call
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480

Antrin
How long never mind the cost would it take to check 800,000 possible applications?

Also, why should people who have chosen to make another country their main residence have a say in the future of the country they left behind?

At least foreign students were actually living in Scotland at the time.

Personally I would not have allowed non-Scottish students to vote but I know why it was done as they were more likely to vote Yes. Scottish expats would have been more likely to vote No.

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None of you have addressed the very real fact that both Ireland and France (and doubtless many other civilised nations that I don't yet know of) are perfectly capable of permitting their nationals to vote wherever they are living AND in all significant votes back in their home country.

 

BtB was simply (and I'll admit effectively.  A wee bit...) winding me up about how I could not be a passionate Scot.  It's not within his jurisdiction to decide how my emotions play.

Please explain to me what genuine bearing a transient ephemeral facet of someone's life such as address got to do with someone's unending nationality?  Unless you accept that Scotland is a wee tinpot  amateurish operation?  I prefer to believe it can be better than that.  It should be.

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29 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

BBC News - Scottish independence: SNP dismisses expat voting call
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-16607480

Antrin
How long never mind the cost would it take to check 800,000 possible applications?

There are 200,000 French nationals in London alone.  Dunno how many Paddies in the UK.

THEY ALL MANAGE TO HAVE VOTES BACK HOME.

 

(I thought there were only 80, 000 Scots south of the border?

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4 minutes ago, antrin said:

None of you have addressed the very real fact that both Ireland and France (and doubtless many other civilised nations that I don't yet know of) are perfectly capable of permitting their nationals to vote wherever they are living AND in all significant votes back in their home country.

 

BtB was simply (and I'll admit effectively.  A wee bit...) winding me up about how I could not be a passionate Scot.  It's not within his jurisdiction to decide how my emotions play.

Please explain to me what genuine bearing a transient ephemeral facet of someone's life such as address got to do with someone's unending nationality?  Unless you accept that Scotland is a wee tinpot  amateurish operation?  I prefer to believe it can be better than that.  It should be.

Well, We are not talking about an independence referendum in either France or Eire so I personally couldn't care less what arrangements they make.

It is reasonable to me that someone needs to be living and working in Scotland as their main place of residence to have a vote. London-dwellers don't get a say because they don't have to live with the consequences.

Seems fair enough to me.

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I was very comfortable with the decision that those resident in Scotland irrespective of nationality got to vote, I would personally have loved a vote but I don't live in Scotland to benefit or otherwise from it so I accepted the reasoning for that decision.

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The main problem is probably who decides who is eligible to claim to be Scottish. Those born in Scotland? Those born of one or two parents who were born in Scotland? Those with any Scottish ancestry at all? Those who have had whisky, haggis or Irn Bru? No matter what condition you applied, the "next one on the list" would also want a say. Residency is the only real practical way to decide.

Out of curiosity, antrin, do you have a Scottish tax code?

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