The Politics Thread

[smcc]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So we should happily subject them to taxation but deny them representation?

I don't think so.

There is absolutely no guarantee that these voters would vote Yes anyway.

In fairness to Sturgeon I think she is genuinely ding what she thinks is right and fair and on this issue she has my support and the support of the majority of reasonable people.

The people you mention (Gibraltar or USA) would only get a vote if they lived and worked here (including students).

I expect they'd have had to have been here at least 3 years as before?

Oh and as regards an independence vote, the SNP very much DO have competition - from the majority who voted No last time. This is about independence not Holyrood.

I seem to remember being taught that taxation without representation led to the Boston Tea Party and its consequences!

[oaksoft]

1 minute ago, smcc said:

I seem to remember being taught that taxation without representation led to the Boston Tea Party and its consequences!

Yes, that's what I was hinting at when I posted that.

[Slarti]

I assume citizens from Gilbraltar with a British passport will already have the right to vote?

Someone born in the USA (cue for a song) but doesn’t hold a British passport wouldn’t have a vote, because they’re not a British National.

If any of my responses are incorrect then hands up.

Someone on a work permit may end up making Scotland their home, and good for them. IMO, if you don’t hold a British passport you shouldn’t get a vote.

Again, in my opinion. Political parties are using the “foreign citizen” route to bolster their voting figures. That was a popular ploy by labour in England where the demographics were more of the Muslim persuasion. Put up a Muslim candidate to win a seat.
I’m not saying that’s what the SNP are doing, as they don’t really have competition.

Not in a Scottish IndyRef they don't. Is that not what we are talking about.

If the person born in the USA qualifies for a British passport, then they could always get one and vote, according to your "rule". Just as an FYI, it is British Subject, not National.

What I am getting at is you can have a British passport without being born in Britain and without ever having stepped foot in Britain, yet you think that anyone with a British passport should get to bote in a Scottish IndyRef. I don't have a passport, do I not get a vote?

[Slarti]

Yes, that's what I was hinting at when I posted that.

Naw ye wurnae.

[Russian Saint]

Not in a Scottish IndyRef they don't. Is that not what we are talking about.

If the person born in the USA qualifies for a British passport, then they could always get one and vote, according to your "rule". Just as an FYI, it is British Subject, not National.

What I am getting at is you can have a British passport without being born in Britain and without ever having stepped foot in Britain, yet you think that anyone with a British passport should get to bote in a Scottish IndyRef. I don't have a passport, do I not get a vote?

The question was regarding foreign nationals (subjects if you want to be splitting hairs)
You don’t need a passport unless you intend to travel overseas. You do however require a passport to get into the UK (unless you’re crossing the channel in a dinghy or the back of truck) so I don’t see what you’re point is.

So let me make my point clear once again.

I don’t believe foreign nationals (students or those in on a work permit as they’re do t have residency or citizenship) Now. That’s my opinion and you have yours. We’ll leave it at that.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The question was regarding foreign nationals (subjects if you want to be splitting hairs)
You don’t need a passport unless you intend to travel overseas. You do however require a passport to get into the UK (unless you’re crossing the channel in a dinghy or the back of truck) so I don’t see what you’re point is.

So let me make my point clear once again.

I don’t believe foreign nationals (students or those in on a work permit as they’re do t have residency or citizenship) Now. That’s my opinion and you have yours. We’ll leave it at that.

Do foreign students currently get a vote in UK elections?

[Slarti]

The question was regarding foreign nationals (subjects if you want to be splitting hairs)
You don’t need a passport unless you intend to travel overseas. You do however require a passport to get into the UK (unless you’re crossing the channel in a dinghy or the back of truck) so I don’t see what you’re point is.

So let me make my point clear once again.

I don’t believe foreign nationals (students or those in on a work permit as they’re do t have residency or citizenship) Now. That’s my opinion and you have yours. We’ll leave it at that.

No, there are foreign nationals, it's just the likes of us British who are subjects. We're not even British Citizens, we are subjects of Auld Lizzie (officially at least). But that is not the point, so I'll leave it.

But you said that you get to vote if you have a British passport. I don't have one.

Unless they have changed the rules, you can officially become British without giving up other nationalities. You could therefore be British but have, say, a French passport. How would that work into your rules?

As I said, it's not easy

Why don't you believe foreign nationals? [emoji38]

[ALBIONSAINT]

2 hours ago, freethinker said:

 

According to research from the Scottish conservatives 😂😂😂

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, ALBIONSAINT said:

According to research from the Scottish conservatives 😂😂😂

You'll notice that shull only posts the opinions of other people.

He cleverly avoids telling us what he thinks for fear of being outed as an uneducated bellend.

[Slarti]

You'll notice that shull only posts the opinions of other people.
He cleverly avoids telling us what he thinks for fear of being outed as an uneducated bellend.

It's pointless to not have him on ignore these days, all he does is post links to alt right shit. At least that was what he was doing before I put him on ignore again, maybe he's changed. [emoji38]

[antrin]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

You'll notice that shull only posts the opinions of other people.

He cleverly avoids telling us what he thinks for fear of being outed as an uneducated bellend.

I think “cleverly” is rather over-egging it...

”bellend”is in the alt-right ball park...

[ALBIONSAINT]

Interesting article about food standards post Brexit. Given that it looks like farmers and fisheries are going to suffer, Will this have an impact for on support for the union? 
 

 

Under cover of the Coronavirus pandemic and headlines over the Government’s handling of the crisis which has seen Britain suffer more deaths than any other European country, another major public health story has slipped through barely noticed, and has rarely been mentioned inthe weekly PMQs.

The most important farming legislation in generations passed its third reading in parliament despite warnings that in a bid to make the UK market pliable for a post-Brexit US trade deal, protections of minimum food safety standards have evaporated, as have safeguards for Britain’s farmers.

With most MPs still socially distanced at home, MPs passed the legislation’s third reading in a virtual vote – 360 – 211 despite guarantees of a minimum standard to protect British food – and therefor British farming – being absent from the overhaul of UK agriculture. A full list of how they voted in this crucial legislation is below.

As the bill moves to the Lords for a second reading amid outrage from UK farmers, this weekend former Ulster Unionist MEP Jim Nicholson expressed his disbelief that all eight DUP MPs had voted with Conservative colleagues for a bill he said has “the potential to be the last nail in the coffin for agriculture in Northern Ireland.”

He warned: “the Bill opens the flood gates to cheap food imports into the UK from around the world. This food will not have been produced to the same standards achieved consistently by farmers in Northern Ireland. These imports will serve to drive markets down at a time when local farmers are under tremendous pressure.”

It was sadly predictable to see Conservative and DUP MPs falling into line, despite previous concerns expressed by those very MPs that have rural constituencies or knowledge of foods and farming, or indeed Northern Ireland – where the farming industry now has big concerns with Boris Johnson’s promises of no border checks and alignment with the rest of the UK rather than Europe evaporating daily.

Just ONE Tory MP rebelled: Helen Grant, Conservative MP for Maidstone and the Weald. Not one Labour, Lib Dem or SNP MP voted for the bill.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[beyond our ken]

On 8/29/2020 at 9:38 AM, Russian Saint said:

 

Why should foreign citizens be allowed to vote?
I’ve lived and worked in many countries but never had the option to vote, and rightfully so. IMO. If an individual from a foreign country that has then taken British citizenship, then yes, but not someone that’s only in the country on the back of a visa/work permit.

 

so where does it say you can get a vote on the back of a visa or work permit?

registering to vote requires leave to remain or settled status, not readily or easily obtained and certainly not available on a visa alone or a work permit.

And before we go any further, leave to enter doesn't just mean coming in on holiday

Who can register

You must be aged 16 or over (or 14 or over in Scotland and Wales).

You must also be one of the following:

• a British citizen
• an Irish or EU citizen living in the UK
• a Commonwealth citizen who has permission to enter or stay in the UK, or who does not need permission
• a citizen of another country living in Scotland or Wales who has permission to enter or stay in the UK, or who does not need permission

 

[Russian Saint]

so where does it say you can get a vote on the back of a visa or work permit?
registering to vote requires leave to remain or settled status, not readily or easily obtained and certainly not available on a visa alone or a work permit.
And before we go any further, leave to enter doesn't just mean coming in on holiday

Who can register

You must be aged 16 or over (or 14 or over in Scotland and Wales).

You must also be one of the following:

• a British citizen
• an Irish or EU citizen living in the UK
• a Commonwealth citizen who has permission to enter or stay in the UK, or who does not need permission
• a citizen of another country living in Scotland or Wales who has permission to enter or stay in the UK, or who does not need permission

 

That was kinda my point chap. FYI. That form was put through my door, along with documents for voting registration. (I’m renting a flat in Aberdeen as I had to come up here for my job)

I took a pic and posted it on here......... it’s not some screen grab from the internet.

So from what I’m reading in your post, you’re basically agreeing with me.
I know the legal process on immigration too well and how many hurdles there are to get over.
My point was. IMO....... that’s the key phrase. Unless you have gained citizenship complete with a British passport, you don’t get a vote.
If you’re a foreign national and are in the application process to gain citizenship and a passport, you don’t get a vote.

[Bud the Baker]

A blast from the past from one of my fave comedians

 

[stlucifer]

On 8/29/2020 at 2:06 PM, oaksoft said:

I'm not struggling with it at all.

Those were the rules last time. Those will be the rules next time. Those people you describe may or may not move to another country  but right now they are showing more loyalty to our country than those who chose to move away and pay tax and support the economy of another country. I've done the same when I was younger and I would have accepted it as a consequence of being part of the brain drain out of the  country.

You're just going to have to accept it I'm afraid. Or take it up with Sturgeon.

I had to laugh when you claimed leaving Scotland drained our country of any brain.

[Slarti]

I had to laugh when you claimed leaving Scotland drained our country of any brain.

Maybe his name's Brian and he made a typo. [emoji38]

[ALBIONSAINT]

20 minutes ago, freethinker said:

 

Did he not used to be a notorious socialist worker ? or am I thinking of someone else 

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, stlucifer said:

I had to laugh when you claimed leaving Scotland drained our country of any brain.

I wondered if that would get a wee bite. 😅

[antrin]

On 8/29/2020 at 2:06 PM, oaksoft said:

Those people you describe may or may not move to another country  but right now they are showing more loyalty to our country than those who chose to move away and pay tax and support the economy of another country.
 

I know you pride yourself on your Twattery so I usually indulge that and Don’t pick up on your posts, but...
 

How about those who move away as economic migrants, to pay their tax in the the same United country where not only does their own taxed labour and their new town subsidise the rest of the Uk, but they personally provide economic support to those left behind, back home?

Is it right should they be disenfranchised?

 

[Slarti]

I know you pride yourself on your Twattery so I usually indulge that and Don’t pick up on your posts, but...
 
How about those who move away as economic migrants, to pay their tax in the the same United country where not only does their own taxed labour and their new town subsidise the rest of the Uk, but they personally provide economic support to those left behind, back home?
Is it right should they be disenfranchised?
 

Aye. [emoji38]

[salmonbuddie]

I know you pride yourself on your Twattery so I usually indulge that and Don’t pick up on your posts, but...
 
How about those who move away as economic migrants, to pay their tax in the the same United country where not only does their own taxed labour and their new town subsidise the rest of the Uk, but they personally provide economic support to those left behind, back home?
Is it right should they be disenfranchised?
 

You can't be disenfranchised if you weren't enfranchised in the first place. You still don't get a vote.

[emoji846]

[antrin]

2 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

You can't be disenfranchised if you weren't enfranchised in the first place. You still don't get a vote.


 

I was enfranchised before I took the High Road.    Voted whenever I could.
 

I even - excruciatingly and uniquely - didn’t vote Labour once, (voted instead for a wee, nasty party with a good local candidate) when I returned to work up in Moray  for a year, in order to help remove the sitting Tory MP, who was Sec of State for Scotland.

 

as I’ve repeatedly posted... the French, the Yanks, Scandinavians.... all let their nationals vote in national elections, no matter where they live on Earth.

only small-minded Scotland under its current leadership is incapable (or too small-minded) to make that happen for its people.
 

 

[Slarti]

I was enfranchised before I took the High Road.    Voted whenever I could.
 
I even - excruciatingly and uniquely - didn’t vote Labour once, (voted instead for a wee, nasty party with a good local candidate) when I returned to work up in Moray  for a year, in order to help remove the sitting Tory MP, who was Sec of State for Scotland.
 
as I’ve repeatedly posted... the French, the Yanks, Scandinavians.... all let their nationals vote in national elections, no matter where they live on Earth.
only small-minded Scotland under its current leadership is incapable (or too small-minded) to make that happen for its people.
 
 

But, again, how do you determine who is a Scottish national? And I'm not talking about the horse race at Ayr.

US citizens abroad are also subject to US income tax, irrespective of whether they pay income tax in their country of residence. How do you fancy that scenario?

[salmonbuddie]

I was enfranchised before I took the High Road.    Voted whenever I could.
 
I even - excruciatingly and uniquely - didn’t vote Labour once, (voted instead for a wee, nasty party with a good local candidate) when I returned to work up in Moray  for a year, in order to help remove the sitting Tory MP, who was Sec of State for Scotland.
 
as I’ve repeatedly posted... the French, the Yanks, Scandinavians.... all let their nationals vote in national elections, no matter where they live on Earth.
only small-minded Scotland under its current leadership is incapable (or too small-minded) to make that happen for its people.
 
 

So you disenfranchised yourself then, like my brother who lives in Wales? He votes in Wales only, his wife is Welsh, she voted in Scotland when they lived in Scotland, now she votes in Wales again.

My nephew was born in England, Scottish father, identifies as Scottish - does he get a vote? Where do you draw the line?

The vote concerns the people directly affected by it, the people of Scotland. Get registered to vote in Scotland, get to vote in Scotland. The precedent was set in 2014 so nope, you don't get a vote.