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Goody the Legend at Alloa Athletic Thread

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Tuesday 25th July:

  1. Albion Rovers 1-2 Clyde - 377
  2. Alloa Athletic 3-2 Ross County - 319
  3. Berwick  2-3 Kilmarnock - 609
  4. Brechin City 1-1 St Johnstone (4-2 pens) - 912
  5. Dunfermline 1-5 Inverness CT - 2,580 
  6. Forfar Athletic 2-0 East Fife - 565
  7. Livingston 0-2 Ayr United - 643
  8. Motherwell 3-0 East Stirlingshire - 2,503
  9. Peterhead 2-0 Dundee - 998
  10. Queens' Park 3-3 The Airdrie United 2002 (7-8pens) - 553
  11. Stirling Albion 4-1 Elgin City - 553

Wednesday 26th July:

  1. Arbroath 0-2 Cowdendeath - 421
  2. Cove 3-0 Montrose (@ Forfar) - 189
  3. Edinburgh City 2-4 Hamilton Academical - 459
Edited by shull
They are deid

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6 hours ago, linwood bud said:

It's amazing how many teams have something to play for this weekend, I like this new format

While I fancied a league style start it was to augment a shorter league season with larger leagues. As it stands, financially, it doesn't make sense. Crowds are at such a level it would be better to call them groups. I expect the format will reset next season. This doesn't bode well for the stupid idea for the challenge cup which I think will suffer similar levels of interest.

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I'll admit I've not checked the attendance for the group stage against average attendance for each of the teams but surely it can't be that much lower than normal. Even if they are a bit down it must be down to summer holidays as i can't accept fans fancy friendlies over competitive cup ties.

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50 minutes ago, southsidebud said:

I'll admit I've not checked the attendance for the group stage against average attendance for each of the teams but surely it can't be that much lower than normal. Even if they are a bit down it must be down to summer holidays as i can't accept fans fancy friendlies over competitive cup ties.

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In last 8 years or so my St Mirren supporting mates and me have around this time of year been to Darlington, Wigan, Carlisle, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield for pre season friendlies.

 

This year we could have watched Saints play Livingston for the 6th time in 11 months or the first of 5 games v Ayr in next 9 months.

 

I haven't went to a game yet despite being off work last 2 weeks as this just doesn't interest me at all none of my mates have went either now if we were playing in England we would definitely be there friendlies are better at this time of year.

St Mirren and other teams could win 3 group games out of 4 and get knocked out? Where is sense in that even Euro 2016 rewarded shit group performances finish 3rd and you got through we could finish 2nd and get knocked out.

Stupid idea.

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5 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

In last 8 years or so my St Mirren supporting mates and me have around this time of year been to Darlington, Wigan, Carlisle, Manchester, Newcastle and Sheffield for pre season friendlies.

 

This year we could have watched Saints play Livingston for the 6th time in 11 months or the first of 5 games v Ayr in next 9 months.

 

I haven't went to a game yet despite being off work last 2 weeks as this just doesn't interest me at all none of my mates have went either now if we were playing in England we would definitely be there friendlies are better at this time of year.

St Mirren and other teams could win 3 group games out of 4 and get knocked out? Where is sense in that even Euro 2016 rewarded shit group performances finish 3rd and you got through we could finish 2nd and get knocked out.

Stupid idea.

You were not going for a Training Session Kickabout Friendly. 

You were going for a piss up. 

Sober up and stop posting shite. :lol:

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Its always about opinions - I've only ever been to a handful of friendlies over 30 years and most of them were in the first 5 or so if those; they just don't interest me.

That said, I get the summer holiday tour aspect - its just not for me.

The new format has obviously split opinion but for me it is exciting and something different and (for a change) the powers that be should be applauded.

As for qualifying from a four team group by finishing third - that is just wrong and I'm glad it's not in this tournament.

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2 hours ago, southsidebud said:

Its always about opinions - I've only ever been to a handful of friendlies over 30 years and most of them were in the first 5 or so if those; they just don't interest me.

That said, I get the summer holiday tour aspect - its just not for me.

The new format has obviously split opinion but for me it is exciting and something different and (for a change) the powers that be should be applauded.

As for qualifying from a four team group by finishing third - that is just wrong and I'm glad it's not in this tournament.

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Agree with the finishing 3rd & qualifying aspect that was a joke and so is finishing 2nd and getting knocked out.

 

3 hours ago, shull said:

You were not going for a Training Session Kickabout Friendly. 

You were going for a piss up. 

Sober up and stop posting shite. :lol:

I don't drink Shull, apparently alot of Scottish people do though I'm just not one of them.

Still better than playing in a 4 team league finishing 2nd and getting knocked out.

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It's pretty obvious that the further away the game, the fewer the number of people that will/can travel. Not sure what that's got to do with anything.

Last year I got to see my team play at an iconic stadium such as Hillsborough. Did I travel to Hamilton again for the umpteenth time last week?.........no, I didn't.

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Isn't this also about dipping the toe into water for summer football?

Certainly I enjoyed the experience 2 weeks ago against Ayr. Shorts on, beer garden then watching the game. Beats some of the miserable weather we have to endure at the height of the season, mid-winter.

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5 hours ago, Ronnie said:

Agree with the finishing 3rd & qualifying aspect that was a joke and so is finishing 2nd and getting knocked out.

 

I don't drink Shull, apparently alot of Scottish people do though I'm just not one of them.

Still better than playing in a 4 team league finishing 2nd and getting knocked out.

I don't drink either, but I'll be on a super high if we finish second and qualify. :D

I see ye FTOF :lol:

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Pretty much all the permutations explained...

 

The final group stage matches of the 2015/16 League Cup will be played this weekend, and 11 of the 12 qualification spots are still up for grabs.  Rangers (the only Premiership side to have played all 4 matches) are the only side who have already secured progression to the next round.

Group Winners

The 8 group winners will be guaranteed a spot in the next round of the competition.

A total of 18 clubs still have a theoretical chance of winning their group, and the permutations required for each club are listed below.  Note that ludicrously unlikely permutations of results have been placed in italics.

Group A

East Fife are top of the group with 8 points, but have already played all of their matches.  Peterhead or Forfar Athletic could still overhaul them.

East Fife will win the group if:

  • Peterhead fail to beat Dumbarton (A) and Forfar fail to beat Dundee (A)
  • Peterhead fail to beat Dumbarton (A) and Forfar beat Dundee (A) 1-0.

 

Peterhead will win the group if:

  • Peterhead win against Dumbarton (A)
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar fail to beat Dundee.
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar beat Dundee by a one goal margin.
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar beat Dundee by a two goal margin AND Peterhead score at least the same number of goals as Forfar on Saturday.

 

Forfar Athletic will win the group if:

  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by any scoreline other than 1-0 AND Peterhead take 1 point or fewer against Dumbarton (A).
  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by a two goal margin AND Peterhead earn no more than 2 points against Dumbarton (A) and Forfar score more goals than Peterhead on Saturday.
  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by a margin of 3 goals or more AND Peterhead earn no more than 2 points against Dumbarton (A).

 

 

Group B

St Johnstone currently lead the way with 7 points, ahead of Stirling Albion (6) and Brechin City (5).

St Johnstone will win the group if:

  • St Johnstone beat Stirling Albion (H).
  • St Johnstone earn 2 points against Stirling Albion (H)
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City take 2 points or fewer against Falkirk (A).
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 5 goals or fewer.
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 6 goals AND (Goals scored by Brechin – Goals scored by St Johnstone) < 2.

 

Stirling Albion will win the group if:

  • Stirling Albion beat St Johnstone (A).

 

Brechin City will win the group if:

  • Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 7 goals or more AND Stirling Albion defeat St Johnstone (A) on penalties.
  • Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 6 goals or more AND Stirling Albion defeat St Johnstone (A) on penalties AND Brechin score at least 2 more goals than St Johnstone.

 

Group C

Inverness Caledonian Thistle (7 points) currently lead the table by virtue of having scored more away goals than Dundee United (7 points).  Dunfermline (6 points) are in third place, and can still win the group.

Inverness will win the group if:

  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United fail to beat Dunfermline (H).
  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness record a bigger winning margin than Dundee United.
  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness record the same winning margin as Dundee United AND Inverness score at least as many goals as Dundee United.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of 3 goals AND Inverness score as many goals as Dunfermline.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3-0 scoreline AND Inverness score at least 2 goals.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H).
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness score at least the same number of goals as Dundee United.
  • Inverness earn 1 point against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness score at least the same number of goals as Dundee United.

 

Dundee United will win the group if:

  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness fail to beat Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United have a larger winning margin than Inverness.
  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United have the same winning margin as Inverness AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.
  • Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 1 point or fewer against Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.
  • Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness lose to Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 1 point against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.

 

Dunfermline Athletic will win the group if:

  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) AND Inverness take 1 point or fewer against Arbroath (H).
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of at least 4 goals AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H).
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3 goal margin AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline score at least 2 more goals than Inverness.
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3 goal margin AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline score exactly one more goal than Inverness AND Dunfermline score at least 4 goals.

 

Note that, no matter what happens in other matches, both Inverness and Dundee United can guarantee progression to the next round by winning their respective matches.  10 points is enough to guarantee one of the best runner-up spots.

 

Group D

Alloa Athletic lead the group with 9 points and face a winner takes all clash with second placed Raith Rovers (8 points).

Alloa Athletic will win the group if:

  • Alloa avoid defeat against Raith Rovers (A).

 

Raith Rovers will win the group if:

  • Raith Rovers beat Alloa (H).

 

Note that if Raith defeat Alloa on penalties, then both sides would have 10 points.  Alloa would win the group on goal difference, but Raith would be guaranteed progression to the next round as one of the best runners-up.

 

Group E

Partick Thistle lead the way with 9 points and only Queen of the South (6) can catch them.

Partick Thistle will win the group if:

  • Partick Thistle avoid defeat against Queen’s Park (H).
  • Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) AND Queen of the South fail to beat Stenhousemuir (H).
  • Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) by a one goal margin AND Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) by a one goal margin AND (Goals scored by Queens – Goals scored by Thistle) < 3.

 

Queen of the South will win the group if:

  • Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) AND Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) AND there is at least a 3 goal swing in terms of goal difference.
  • Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) by a one goal margin AND Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) by a one goal margin AND Queen of the South score at least 3 more goals than Partick Thistle.

 

Group F

Rangers have already secured Group F with 12 points.

 

Group G

Ayr United lead the group with 9 points, but have already played all of their matches.  Hamilton and St Mirren are both on 6 points with one game remaining.

Ayr United will win the group if:

  • Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City (H).
  • Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) by a margin of 3 goals or fewer.

 

Hamilton Accies will win the group if:

  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City (H).
  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) < 5.
  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) = 5 AND (Goals scored by St Mirren – Goals scored by Hamilton) <5.

 

St Mirren will win the group if:

  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) by a margin of 4 or more goals AND Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H).
  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) > 5.
  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) = 5 AND (Goals scored by St Mirren – Goals scored by Hamilton) > 4.

 

Group H

Morton lead the way with 8 points, ahead of Kilmarnock (6) in second.

Greenock Morton will win the group if:

  • Morton take at least 2 points against Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock take 1 point or fewer against Albion Rovers (H).
  • Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H) AND Kilmarnock beat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer.
  • Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H) AND Kilmarnock beat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND Morton score at least 3 goals more than Kilmarnock.
  • Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer AND Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H).
  • Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton score at least 3 goals more than Kilmarnock.

 

Kilmarnock will win the group if:

  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 4 or more goals AND Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND (Goals scored by Morton – Goals scored by Killie) < 2.
  • Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers by a margin of 4 or more goals.
  • Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers by a margin of 3 goals AND (Goals scored by Morton – Goals scored by Killie) < 2.

 

Best Runners-up

The 4 best runners-up across the groups will also progress to the next round.  This is a hugely complex scenario, and it is impossible for me to provide a comprehensive list of exactly what each club needs to qualify, but a brief overview is provided here.

The minimum and maximum points tallies for the runners up in each group are displayed in the plot below.  The left hand side of the bar shows the lowest possible tally, and the right end of the bar marks the maximum possible tally.

Group

At the moment, it is possible that group runners-up could have anything between 6 and 10 points.  My prediction is that clubs will need at least 9 points to have a chance of finishing as the best runner-up, though it is still possible that someone could sneak through with 8.

The list below provides a run-down of which clubs could finish on which points tallies.

10 points

There are only two groups where the runners-up could finish on 10 points (C & D).  Therefore, 10 points will guarantee progression to the next round.

In Group C, Inverness and Dundee United can both end up on 10 points by winning their final fixtures.  If both clubs do so, then whichever one finishes as runner-up will be sure to go through.

In Group D, the prospect of the runner-up having 10 points is slightly less likely.  This would only occur if Raith Rovers defeated Alloa Athletic on penalties, thus leaving both sides on 10.  It is possible that both sides could conspire to ensure this result, but a victory for either team could see them seeded in the next round, which would hugely boost their chances of reaching at least the quarters.

 

9 points

It seems likely that we might see quite a few runners-up on 9 points.  It is still possible for the runners-up in Groups C, D, E, F, G and H to end up with 9 points – so potentially two clubs with 9 points could miss out on progression.

If multiple clubs end up with 9 points, the tie-breakers are (1) goal difference, (2) goals scored, (3) away goals scored, (4) matches won, (5) away matches won (6) drawing of lots.  Building up a big goal difference could therefore be crucial for the sides who are currently likely to finish on 9 points.

In Group C, Inverness or Dundee United could end up on 9 points if they end up winning their weekend matches on penalties.  In both cases, these clubs would have a goal difference of +5  Alternatively Dunfermline Athletic could end up in second place on 9 points if they beat Dundee United, but Inverness win against Arbroath.  Dunfermline’s current goal difference is +2, but that would increase based on their winning margin.

In Group D, Alloa Athletic could end up in 2nd place with 9 points if they lose to Raith Rovers.  Their current goal difference is +7, but that would decrease with their defeat.  Alternatively, Raith Rovers could finish 2nd with 9 points if they lose on penalties to Alloa.  In that scenario, Raith’s goal difference would be +2.

In Group E, Queen of the South may finish in 2nd with 9 points if they beat Stenhousemuir at home and Partick Thistle avoid defeat against Queen’s Park.  The Doonhamers currently have a goal difference of +3, and that would increase with a win.  Partick Thistle could also finish 2nd on 9 points if they lose to Queen’s Park and Queen of the South overhaul them on goal difference.  Thistle’s goal difference is currently +5, but that would decrease with their defeat.

In Group F, Motherwell and Stranraer face off at Stair Park to decide who will finish as runners-up.  Both clubs have 6 points, so if either side wins in 90 minutes then they would take that tally to 9.  Motherwell’s current goal difference is +3, while Stranraer’s is 0.

In Group G, Ayr UnitedHamilton Accies and St Mirren could all still finish on 9 points.  This group is likely to be decided on goal difference – Ayr have finished all their matches and have +3, Hamilton are currently on +4 and Saints are on -1.  If the runners-up in this group have 9 points, then their goal difference is guaranteed to be at least +3.

In Group H, Kilmarnock would finish as runners-up with 9 points if they beat Albion Rovers at home and Morton take at least a couple of points at home to Berwick.  Killie’s current goal difference is 0, so they may need to increase that drastically to progress.  A slightly less likely scenario would see Morton finish as runners-up on 9 points if they lose on penalties to Berwick and Killie win heavily.  In that case, Morton would have a goal difference of +3.

The plot below shows the range of possible goal differences for each club who could finish on 9 points.  The red dots mark the current goal differences, and the green bars cover the range of goal differences which they could finish up with if they end up on 9 points.  The dashed lines separate groups (obviously only one club from each section can end up in consideration for the best second placed spot).

GD

 

8 points

Depending on results in other groups, it’s possible that runners-up with 8 points could sneak through.  The runners-up in Groups A and B cannot have any more than 8 points, and there are a number of teams in other groups who could end up with this total.

In Group A, East Fife could finish as runners-up if Peterhead beat Dumbarton and Forfar don’t beat Dundee.  The Fifers have finished all their matches and have a goal difference of +1.  Forfar Athletic could also finish as runners-up on 8 points if they win by a scoreline other than 1-0 and Peterhead win, or if they win 1-0 and Peterhead lose (there are also some other unlikely scenarios).  Forfar currently have a goal difference of 0.  Peterhead could also end up 2nd on 8 if they beat Dumbarton on penalties, but Forfar beat Dundee by a couple of goals.

In Group B, Stirling Albion could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they beat St Johnstone on penalties.  In that case, their goal difference would be +3.  Brechin could finish as runners-up on 8 if they beat Falkirk, and the Saints v Stirling game ends up with any result other than Stirling winning on penalties.  Their goal difference is currently -1, but would improve with a win.  It is theoretically possible for St Johnstone to finish 2nd on 8 points, but that would require a very unlikely turn of events.

In Group C, Dundee United could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose to Dunfermline on penalties and Inverness get at least a couple of points against Arbroath.  In that scenario, United would have a goal difference of +5.  Inverness could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose on penalties to Arbroath, and they too would have a goal difference of +5.  Dunfermline could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they beat Dundee United on penalties, and Inverness lose to Arbroath.  Their goal difference in that scenario would be +2.

In Group D, Raith Rovers will finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose to Alloa in their final match.  Raith’s current goal difference is +2, and that would decrease with a defeat.

In Group E, Queen of the South would end up with 8 points if they beat Stenhousemuir on penalties.  In this scenario, their goal difference would be +3.

In Group F, either Motherwell or Stranraer could end up in second place with 8 points if they win on penalties on Saturday.  Motherwell’s goal difference is +3, while Stranraer’s is 0.

In Group G, Hamilton could end up as runners-up with 8 points if they beat Livingston on penalties, and St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City.  In that scenario, Hamilton’s goal difference would be +4.  St Mirren could finish as runners-up with 8 points if they beat Edinburgh City on penalties and Hamilton took no more than 1 point against Livingston.  Their goal difference would be -1.

In Group H, Kilmarnock would finish second with 8 points if they beat Albion Rovers on penalties and Morton avoided a heavy defeat against Berwick.  In that scenario, Killie’s goal difference would be 0.  Morton could finish second on 8 points if they lose to Berwick and Killie beat Albion Rovers.  The Ton currently have a goal difference of +3, but that would drop with a defeat.

 

7 points

It is highly unlikely that 7 points will be enough to qualify for the next round.  It is already certain that the runners-up in Groups D and F will pick up at least 8 points, and it seems very likely that runners-up in many other groups will earn at least that many.

In Group A, Peterhead, Forfar and Dundee could all theoretically finish 2nd with 7 points.

In Group B, St Johnstone, Stirling Albion or Brechin could finish second with 7.

In Group C, Inverness, Dundee United or Dunfermline could all pick up 7 points in second place.

In Group E, Queen of the South could finish 2nd on 7 points by losing on penalties on Saturday.

In Group G, Hamilton or St Mirren could finish up second with 7 points.

In Group H, Killie could come in second with 7 points if they lose on penalties to Albion Rovers.

 

6 points

The runners-up in Groups A, B, E, G and H could still all finish on 6 points, so it is theoretically possible that one of these sides could sneak through.  This would require all of the following results to occur:

  • Dumbarton beat Peterhead (H)
  • Dundee defeat Forfar (A) on penalties
  • St Johnstone beat Stirling Albion (H)
  • Falkirk beat Brechin (H) either in 90 minutes, or on penalties
  • Stenhousemuir beat Queen of the South (A)
  • Livingston beat Hamilton (A)
  • Edinburgh City beat St Mirren (A)
  • Albion Rovers beat Kilmarnock (A)

 

In this scenario, one of Dundee, Falkirk, Livingston or Albion Rovers could sneak through on 6 points.

 

Summary

The plot below shows the possible range of points for each possible 2nd place finisher.  The dashed blue lines separate out the groups, and the red bars go from the minimum to maximum point tallies with which the club could conceivably finish second.

Club.jpeg

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I think a valid summary is that if Hamilton win in 90 mins, then we need a 4 goal winning margin over EC and at least 2 of the following to happen...

(Arbroath to win away to ICT OR Dung to win away to Dundee Utd on penalties)
Alloa to win away to Raith
Stenhousemuir to draw or win away to Queen of the South
Stranraer to draw or win home to Motherwell
(Berwick to win away to Morton OR Albion Rovers to avoid a 3 goal defeat at Rugby Park)

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On 7/29/2016 at 3:07 PM, Eric Arthur Blair said:

Pretty much all the permutations explained...

 

The final group stage matches of the 2015/16 League Cup will be played this weekend, and 11 of the 12 qualification spots are still up for grabs.  Rangers (the only Premiership side to have played all 4 matches) are the only side who have already secured progression to the next round.

Group Winners

The 8 group winners will be guaranteed a spot in the next round of the competition.

A total of 18 clubs still have a theoretical chance of winning their group, and the permutations required for each club are listed below.  Note that ludicrously unlikely permutations of results have been placed in italics.

Group A

East Fife are top of the group with 8 points, but have already played all of their matches.  Peterhead or Forfar Athletic could still overhaul them.

East Fife will win the group if:

  • Peterhead fail to beat Dumbarton (A) and Forfar fail to beat Dundee (A)
  • Peterhead fail to beat Dumbarton (A) and Forfar beat Dundee (A) 1-0.

 

Peterhead will win the group if:

  • Peterhead win against Dumbarton (A)
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar fail to beat Dundee.
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar beat Dundee by a one goal margin.
  • Peterhead earn 2 points against Dumbarton (A) AND Forfar beat Dundee by a two goal margin AND Peterhead score at least the same number of goals as Forfar on Saturday.

 

Forfar Athletic will win the group if:

  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by any scoreline other than 1-0 AND Peterhead take 1 point or fewer against Dumbarton (A).
  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by a two goal margin AND Peterhead earn no more than 2 points against Dumbarton (A) and Forfar score more goals than Peterhead on Saturday.
  • Forfar win against Dundee (A) by a margin of 3 goals or more AND Peterhead earn no more than 2 points against Dumbarton (A).

 

 

Group B

St Johnstone currently lead the way with 7 points, ahead of Stirling Albion (6) and Brechin City (5).

St Johnstone will win the group if:

  • St Johnstone beat Stirling Albion (H).
  • St Johnstone earn 2 points against Stirling Albion (H)
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City take 2 points or fewer against Falkirk (A).
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 5 goals or fewer.
  • St Johnstone earn 1 point against Stirling Albion (H) AND Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 6 goals AND (Goals scored by Brechin – Goals scored by St Johnstone) < 2.

 

Stirling Albion will win the group if:

  • Stirling Albion beat St Johnstone (A).

 

Brechin City will win the group if:

  • Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 7 goals or more AND Stirling Albion defeat St Johnstone (A) on penalties.
  • Brechin City beat Falkirk (A) by a margin of 6 goals or more AND Stirling Albion defeat St Johnstone (A) on penalties AND Brechin score at least 2 more goals than St Johnstone.

 

Group C

Inverness Caledonian Thistle (7 points) currently lead the table by virtue of having scored more away goals than Dundee United (7 points).  Dunfermline (6 points) are in third place, and can still win the group.

Inverness will win the group if:

  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United fail to beat Dunfermline (H).
  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness record a bigger winning margin than Dundee United.
  • Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness record the same winning margin as Dundee United AND Inverness score at least as many goals as Dundee United.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of 3 goals AND Inverness score as many goals as Dunfermline.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3-0 scoreline AND Inverness score at least 2 goals.
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H).
  • Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness score at least the same number of goals as Dundee United.
  • Inverness earn 1 point against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness score at least the same number of goals as Dundee United.

 

Dundee United will win the group if:

  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness fail to beat Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United have a larger winning margin than Inverness.
  • Dundee United beat Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness beat Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United have the same winning margin as Inverness AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.
  • Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 1 point or fewer against Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United earn 2 points against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.
  • Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness lose to Arbroath (H).
  • Dundee United earn 1 point against Dunfermline (H) AND Inverness earn 1 point against Arbroath (H) AND Dundee United score more goals than Inverness.

 

Dunfermline Athletic will win the group if:

  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) AND Inverness take 1 point or fewer against Arbroath (H).
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a margin of at least 4 goals AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H).
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3 goal margin AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline score at least 2 more goals than Inverness.
  • Dunfermline beat Dundee United (A) by a 3 goal margin AND Inverness take 2 points against Arbroath (H) AND Dunfermline score exactly one more goal than Inverness AND Dunfermline score at least 4 goals.

 

Note that, no matter what happens in other matches, both Inverness and Dundee United can guarantee progression to the next round by winning their respective matches.  10 points is enough to guarantee one of the best runner-up spots.

 

Group D

Alloa Athletic lead the group with 9 points and face a winner takes all clash with second placed Raith Rovers (8 points).

Alloa Athletic will win the group if:

  • Alloa avoid defeat against Raith Rovers (A).

 

Raith Rovers will win the group if:

  • Raith Rovers beat Alloa (H).

 

Note that if Raith defeat Alloa on penalties, then both sides would have 10 points.  Alloa would win the group on goal difference, but Raith would be guaranteed progression to the next round as one of the best runners-up.

 

Group E

Partick Thistle lead the way with 9 points and only Queen of the South (6) can catch them.

Partick Thistle will win the group if:

  • Partick Thistle avoid defeat against Queen’s Park (H).
  • Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) AND Queen of the South fail to beat Stenhousemuir (H).
  • Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) by a one goal margin AND Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) by a one goal margin AND (Goals scored by Queens – Goals scored by Thistle) < 3.

 

Queen of the South will win the group if:

  • Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) AND Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) AND there is at least a 3 goal swing in terms of goal difference.
  • Queen of the South beat Stenhousemuir (H) by a one goal margin AND Partick Thistle lose to Queen’s Park (H) by a one goal margin AND Queen of the South score at least 3 more goals than Partick Thistle.

 

Group F

Rangers have already secured Group F with 12 points.

 

Group G

Ayr United lead the group with 9 points, but have already played all of their matches.  Hamilton and St Mirren are both on 6 points with one game remaining.

Ayr United will win the group if:

  • Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City (H).
  • Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) by a margin of 3 goals or fewer.

 

Hamilton Accies will win the group if:

  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City (H).
  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) < 5.
  • Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) = 5 AND (Goals scored by St Mirren – Goals scored by Hamilton) <5.

 

St Mirren will win the group if:

  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) by a margin of 4 or more goals AND Hamilton fail to beat Livingston (H).
  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) > 5.
  • St Mirren beat Edinburgh City (H) AND Hamilton beat Livingston (H) AND (St Mirren’s winning margin – Hamilton’s winning margin) = 5 AND (Goals scored by St Mirren – Goals scored by Hamilton) > 4.

 

Group H

Morton lead the way with 8 points, ahead of Kilmarnock (6) in second.

Greenock Morton will win the group if:

  • Morton take at least 2 points against Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock take 1 point or fewer against Albion Rovers (H).
  • Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H) AND Kilmarnock beat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer.
  • Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H) AND Kilmarnock beat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND Morton score at least 3 goals more than Kilmarnock.
  • Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H) by a margin of 2 goals or fewer AND Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H).
  • Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton score at least 3 goals more than Kilmarnock.

 

Kilmarnock will win the group if:

  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 4 or more goals AND Morton take 1 point against Berwick Rangers (H).
  • Kilmarnock defeat Albion Rovers (H) by a margin of 3 goals AND (Goals scored by Morton – Goals scored by Killie) < 2.
  • Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers by a margin of 4 or more goals.
  • Kilmarnock take 2 points against Albion Rovers (H) AND Morton lose to Berwick Rangers by a margin of 3 goals AND (Goals scored by Morton – Goals scored by Killie) < 2.

 

Best Runners-up

The 4 best runners-up across the groups will also progress to the next round.  This is a hugely complex scenario, and it is impossible for me to provide a comprehensive list of exactly what each club needs to qualify, but a brief overview is provided here.

The minimum and maximum points tallies for the runners up in each group are displayed in the plot below.  The left hand side of the bar shows the lowest possible tally, and the right end of the bar marks the maximum possible tally.

Group

At the moment, it is possible that group runners-up could have anything between 6 and 10 points.  My prediction is that clubs will need at least 9 points to have a chance of finishing as the best runner-up, though it is still possible that someone could sneak through with 8.

The list below provides a run-down of which clubs could finish on which points tallies.

10 points

There are only two groups where the runners-up could finish on 10 points (C & D).  Therefore, 10 points will guarantee progression to the next round.

In Group C, Inverness and Dundee United can both end up on 10 points by winning their final fixtures.  If both clubs do so, then whichever one finishes as runner-up will be sure to go through.

In Group D, the prospect of the runner-up having 10 points is slightly less likely.  This would only occur if Raith Rovers defeated Alloa Athletic on penalties, thus leaving both sides on 10.  It is possible that both sides could conspire to ensure this result, but a victory for either team could see them seeded in the next round, which would hugely boost their chances of reaching at least the quarters.

 

9 points

It seems likely that we might see quite a few runners-up on 9 points.  It is still possible for the runners-up in Groups C, D, E, F, G and H to end up with 9 points – so potentially two clubs with 9 points could miss out on progression.

If multiple clubs end up with 9 points, the tie-breakers are (1) goal difference, (2) goals scored, (3) away goals scored, (4) matches won, (5) away matches won (6) drawing of lots.  Building up a big goal difference could therefore be crucial for the sides who are currently likely to finish on 9 points.

In Group C, Inverness or Dundee United could end up on 9 points if they end up winning their weekend matches on penalties.  In both cases, these clubs would have a goal difference of +5  Alternatively Dunfermline Athletic could end up in second place on 9 points if they beat Dundee United, but Inverness win against Arbroath.  Dunfermline’s current goal difference is +2, but that would increase based on their winning margin.

In Group D, Alloa Athletic could end up in 2nd place with 9 points if they lose to Raith Rovers.  Their current goal difference is +7, but that would decrease with their defeat.  Alternatively, Raith Rovers could finish 2nd with 9 points if they lose on penalties to Alloa.  In that scenario, Raith’s goal difference would be +2.

In Group E, Queen of the South may finish in 2nd with 9 points if they beat Stenhousemuir at home and Partick Thistle avoid defeat against Queen’s Park.  The Doonhamers currently have a goal difference of +3, and that would increase with a win.  Partick Thistle could also finish 2nd on 9 points if they lose to Queen’s Park and Queen of the South overhaul them on goal difference.  Thistle’s goal difference is currently +5, but that would decrease with their defeat.

In Group F, Motherwell and Stranraer face off at Stair Park to decide who will finish as runners-up.  Both clubs have 6 points, so if either side wins in 90 minutes then they would take that tally to 9.  Motherwell’s current goal difference is +3, while Stranraer’s is 0.

In Group G, Ayr UnitedHamilton Accies and St Mirren could all still finish on 9 points.  This group is likely to be decided on goal difference – Ayr have finished all their matches and have +3, Hamilton are currently on +4 and Saints are on -1.  If the runners-up in this group have 9 points, then their goal difference is guaranteed to be at least +3.

In Group H, Kilmarnock would finish as runners-up with 9 points if they beat Albion Rovers at home and Morton take at least a couple of points at home to Berwick.  Killie’s current goal difference is 0, so they may need to increase that drastically to progress.  A slightly less likely scenario would see Morton finish as runners-up on 9 points if they lose on penalties to Berwick and Killie win heavily.  In that case, Morton would have a goal difference of +3.

The plot below shows the range of possible goal differences for each club who could finish on 9 points.  The red dots mark the current goal differences, and the green bars cover the range of goal differences which they could finish up with if they end up on 9 points.  The dashed lines separate groups (obviously only one club from each section can end up in consideration for the best second placed spot).

GD

 

8 points

Depending on results in other groups, it’s possible that runners-up with 8 points could sneak through.  The runners-up in Groups A and B cannot have any more than 8 points, and there are a number of teams in other groups who could end up with this total.

In Group A, East Fife could finish as runners-up if Peterhead beat Dumbarton and Forfar don’t beat Dundee.  The Fifers have finished all their matches and have a goal difference of +1.  Forfar Athletic could also finish as runners-up on 8 points if they win by a scoreline other than 1-0 and Peterhead win, or if they win 1-0 and Peterhead lose (there are also some other unlikely scenarios).  Forfar currently have a goal difference of 0.  Peterhead could also end up 2nd on 8 if they beat Dumbarton on penalties, but Forfar beat Dundee by a couple of goals.

In Group B, Stirling Albion could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they beat St Johnstone on penalties.  In that case, their goal difference would be +3.  Brechin could finish as runners-up on 8 if they beat Falkirk, and the Saints v Stirling game ends up with any result other than Stirling winning on penalties.  Their goal difference is currently -1, but would improve with a win.  It is theoretically possible for St Johnstone to finish 2nd on 8 points, but that would require a very unlikely turn of events.

In Group C, Dundee United could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose to Dunfermline on penalties and Inverness get at least a couple of points against Arbroath.  In that scenario, United would have a goal difference of +5.  Inverness could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose on penalties to Arbroath, and they too would have a goal difference of +5.  Dunfermline could finish as runners-up on 8 points if they beat Dundee United on penalties, and Inverness lose to Arbroath.  Their goal difference in that scenario would be +2.

In Group D, Raith Rovers will finish as runners-up on 8 points if they lose to Alloa in their final match.  Raith’s current goal difference is +2, and that would decrease with a defeat.

In Group E, Queen of the South would end up with 8 points if they beat Stenhousemuir on penalties.  In this scenario, their goal difference would be +3.

In Group F, either Motherwell or Stranraer could end up in second place with 8 points if they win on penalties on Saturday.  Motherwell’s goal difference is +3, while Stranraer’s is 0.

In Group G, Hamilton could end up as runners-up with 8 points if they beat Livingston on penalties, and St Mirren fail to beat Edinburgh City.  In that scenario, Hamilton’s goal difference would be +4.  St Mirren could finish as runners-up with 8 points if they beat Edinburgh City on penalties and Hamilton took no more than 1 point against Livingston.  Their goal difference would be -1.

In Group H, Kilmarnock would finish second with 8 points if they beat Albion Rovers on penalties and Morton avoided a heavy defeat against Berwick.  In that scenario, Killie’s goal difference would be 0.  Morton could finish second on 8 points if they lose to Berwick and Killie beat Albion Rovers.  The Ton currently have a goal difference of +3, but that would drop with a defeat.

 

7 points

It is highly unlikely that 7 points will be enough to qualify for the next round.  It is already certain that the runners-up in Groups D and F will pick up at least 8 points, and it seems very likely that runners-up in many other groups will earn at least that many.

In Group A, Peterhead, Forfar and Dundee could all theoretically finish 2nd with 7 points.

In Group B, St Johnstone, Stirling Albion or Brechin could finish second with 7.

In Group C, Inverness, Dundee United or Dunfermline could all pick up 7 points in second place.

In Group E, Queen of the South could finish 2nd on 7 points by losing on penalties on Saturday.

In Group G, Hamilton or St Mirren could finish up second with 7 points.

In Group H, Killie could come in second with 7 points if they lose on penalties to Albion Rovers.

 

6 points

The runners-up in Groups A, B, E, G and H could still all finish on 6 points, so it is theoretically possible that one of these sides could sneak through.  This would require all of the following results to occur:

  • Dumbarton beat Peterhead (H)
  • Dundee defeat Forfar (A) on penalties
  • St Johnstone beat Stirling Albion (H)
  • Falkirk beat Brechin (H) either in 90 minutes, or on penalties
  • Stenhousemuir beat Queen of the South (A)
  • Livingston beat Hamilton (A)
  • Edinburgh City beat St Mirren (A)
  • Albion Rovers beat Kilmarnock (A)

 

In this scenario, one of Dundee, Falkirk, Livingston or Albion Rovers could sneak through on 6 points.

 

Summary

The plot below shows the possible range of points for each possible 2nd place finisher.  The dashed blue lines separate out the groups, and the red bars go from the minimum to maximum point tallies with which the club could conceivably finish second.

Club.jpeg

So how did it work out for us ?

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9 hours ago, nosferatu said:

it's all about money

I assume that this new format makes more cash than pre season games and a straight knock out league cup tie

700 fans to Hamilton suggests that Saints fans are behind it

 

It's all about funnelling money to the cash-strapped new club.

how many "lucky" home draws is it, that it's had in cup 'draws', now?

so they were first through from their really tough group. :rolleyes:

and have been drawn against Peterheid in the next round.  Tough match, luckily at home, as usual.

if more money is generated for other participants, that's a side benefit.

the only thing you may safely assume, is that those in charge of Scottish fitba have concerns for only one club.

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