Alex Rae: sacked!

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 minute ago, munoz said:

We're lucky to have any points at all . We've been easily the poorest team in all our league games .

2 of those draws were against part time teams .

At least when you have played a dozen games you have played everyone and had a few teams home and away, and all sides will have had to contend with injuries and suspensions. 

[munoz]

Just now, Dibbles old paperboy said:

At least when you have played a dozen games you have played everyone and had a few teams home and away, and all sides will have had to contend with injuries and suspensions. 

That includes us when it comes to injuries and suspensions .

i really don't think Rae was the man for the job . At least now we might have a chance of turning things around . 

[Stuart Dickson]

In less than 30 months, we have sacked [or not renewed the contract] 9 coaches / assistant managers / managers.

1. Danny Lennon - manager - May 2014. Reason for sacking not taking us to the next level. Time in the job: 4 years. 2 11th place SPL finishes, 2 8th SPL place finishes, 3 Scottish Cup quarter finals (2 losses after replays), 1 League Cup victory and another League Cup QF.

2. Tommy Craig - manager - December 2014. Reason for sacking... trailblazing the way to the next level (which turned out to be down). Time in job: 6 months as manager.

3. Jim Goodwin - coach and co-assistant manager - December 2014. Sacked as coach and put on a final warning about discipline as a player. Time in job: 6 months.

4. Gary Teale - former coach and co-assistant manager and then interim manager thingy until sacked in May 2015 for not saving our season against all the odds.Time in job... it depends whether you include his time as caretaker manager preparing for the Argentinian takeover in December and most of January, or only count from when he was finally appointed interim manager for 4 months.

5. Mark Spalding - assistant manager, left by mutual consent, October 2015. Time in job: 5 months.

6. Ian Murray - manager - resigned December 2015. Time in job: 7 months.

7. Alex Miller - assistant manager / mentor to Ian Murray, non-contract not continued December 2015! Time in job: let's round it up to 2 months.

8. Alex Rae - manager September 2016. Time in job: 9 months. Record - saved us from almost certain relegation play off place and then 6 league games without a win suddenly becomes a sacking offence as well as smiling and waving at fans abusing him. Dismissed the same week as the CEO and board member calls him an excellent manager deserving more time to sort things out.

9. David Farrell - assistant manager September 2016. Time in job: 8 months a week or two.

I think we need to own up to being a dreadful club to work for. All nine men worked for the club while it was up for sale and subject to various takeover bids. If we are a club who sacks, dismisses people after 2,4,5,6 months then the appointments have been wrong in the first place and there is not a supportive structure in place for a management team to settle in and do well in (and in turn put in place a structure where the first team can improve, coaches can develop, and where young development can flourish).

You ask why we can't even sometimes do as well as Motherwell or St Johnstone?

Motherwell season 2013/14: Manager Stuart McCall: SPL 2nd placed; knocked out SC 4th round by Albion Rovers; LC QF defeat to Aberdeen.

Motherwell season 2014/15: Managers Stuart McCall (resigned) / Kenny Black (caretaker) / Ian Barraclough. SPL: 11th. Knocked out both cups in first match.

Motherwell season 2015/16: Managers Ian Barraclough followed by Mark McGhee. SPL: 5th. SC 5th round, LC 3rd round (losing to Morton). McGhee survives a 6 games run without a win in January to mid-February which includes a 6-0 pumping by Hearts.

Motherwell season 2016/17: Manager Mark McGhee: SPL currently 6th, LC qualified from group stage as 2nd placed then lost 5-0 to Celtic in next round.

St Johnstone season 2013/14: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 6th. LC semi final; SC winners.(Wright survives 5 games without a win at start of season and 4 at end of season).

St Johnstone season 2014/15: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 4th (despite losing 5 league games on the bounce in September - October and drawing the next game) LC QF loss to Rangers International, SC put out by Queen of the South in their 2nd match.

St Johnstone season 2015/16: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 4th (2 runs of 4 games without a win). LC semi final defeat to Hibs SC 4th round exit to Killie.

St Johnstone have had 1 manager during the time we've gone through 5 managers, 3 assistants and a coach / co-assistant manager. Motherwell have had 3 managers in the same time, 1 resigned, 1 was fired and the other is still in post. Motherwell made 1 bad appointment in the time we have had so many managerial casualties. Both Mark McGhee and Tommy Wright have survived being on the kind of run of league results which saw Alex Rae dismissed.

You missed David Longwell too. He had time as Assistant and was also a coach. Did he also manage the club for a game too or is my mind playing tricks on me?

Good post though DOP. I'd agree that St Mirren clearly hasn't been a good place to work. In my lifetime I think only Jimmy Bone and Gus MacPherson got a decent run at the job and a bit of stabiloty. Bone had limited success but launched the careers of the likes of Barry Lavety, Jamie Fullerton, Chris Iwelumo, and Ricky Gillies - probably more down to the success of the work of Joe Hughes than anything else. Whilst MacPherson enjoyed more success on the pitch but struggled to put in place any system that produced quality young talent - probably down to the fact that he was never allowed influence on the academy.

The claim is often that St Mirren are a nice wee club that's well run, but you look at the record the club has with managerial appointments and it has to put that claim to question.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 minute ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

You missed David Longwell too. He had time as Assistant and was also a coach. Did he also manage the club for a game too or is my mind playing tricks on me?

Good post though DOP. I'd agree that St Mirren clearly hasn't been a good place to work. In my lifetime I think only Jimmy Bone and Gus MacPherson got a decent run at the job and a bit of stabiloty. Bone had limited success but launched the careers of the likes of Barry Lavety, Jamie Fullerton, Chris Iwelumo, and Ricky Gillies - probably more down to the success of the work of Joe Hughes than anything else. Whilst MacPherson enjoyed more success on the pitch but struggled to put in place any system that produced quality young talent.

The claim is often that St Mirren are a nice wee club that's well run, but you look at the record the club has with managerial appointments and it has to put that claim to question.

 

I didn't list Longwell as a sacking because resumed the youth development role after Teale was dismissed and Longwell left after being offered a job in America.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You missed David Longwell too. He had time as Assistant and was also a coach. Did he also manage the club for a game too or is my mind playing tricks on me?

Good post though DOP. I'd agree that St Mirren clearly hasn't been a good place to work. In my lifetime I think only Jimmy Bone and Gus MacPherson got a decent run at the job and a bit of stabiloty. Bone had limited success but launched the careers of the likes of Barry Lavety, Jamie Fullerton, Chris Iwelumo, and Ricky Gillies - probably more down to the success of the work of Joe Hughes than anything else. Whilst MacPherson enjoyed more success on the pitch but struggled to put in place any system that produced quality young talent - probably down to the fact that he was never allowed influence on the academy.

The claim is often that St Mirren are a nice wee club that's well run, but you look at the record the club has with managerial appointments and it has to put that claim to question.

You don't think Hendrie and Lennon had a decent run at it?

[Stuart Dickson]

You don't think Hendrie and Lennon had a decent run at it?

No. Do you?

[barrhead saint]

2 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 

 

No. Do you?

 

I though both were treated pretty shodily at the time, especially Danny Lennon.

[Drew]

2 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

In less than 30 months, we have sacked [or not renewed the contract] 9 coaches / assistant managers / managers.

1. Danny Lennon - manager - May 2014. Reason for sacking not taking us to the next level. Time in the job: 4 years. 2 11th place SPL finishes, 2 8th SPL place finishes, 3 Scottish Cup quarter finals (2 losses after replays), 1 League Cup victory and another League Cup QF.

2. Tommy Craig - manager - December 2014. Reason for sacking... trailblazing the way to the next level (which turned out to be down). Time in job: 6 months as manager.

3. Jim Goodwin - coach and co-assistant manager - December 2014. Sacked as coach and put on a final warning about discipline as a player. Time in job: 6 months.

4. Gary Teale - former coach and co-assistant manager and then interim manager thingy until sacked in May 2015 for not saving our season against all the odds.Time in job... it depends whether you include his time as caretaker manager preparing for the Argentinian takeover in December and most of January, or only count from when he was finally appointed interim manager for 4 months.

5. Mark Spalding - assistant manager, left by mutual consent, October 2015. Time in job: 5 months.

6. Ian Murray - manager - resigned December 2015. Time in job: 7 months.

7. Alex Miller - assistant manager / mentor to Ian Murray, non-contract not continued December 2015! Time in job: let's round it up to 2 months.

8. Alex Rae - manager September 2016. Time in job: 9 months. Record - saved us from almost certain relegation play off place and then 6 league games without a win suddenly becomes a sacking offence as well as smiling and waving at fans abusing him. Dismissed the same week as the CEO and board member calls him an excellent manager deserving more time to sort things out.

9. David Farrell - assistant manager September 2016. Time in job: 8 months a week or two.

I think we need to own up to being a dreadful club to work for. All nine men worked for the club while it was up for sale and subject to various takeover bids. If we are a club who sacks, dismisses people after 2,4,5,6 months then the appointments have been wrong in the first place and there is not a supportive structure in place for a management team to settle in and do well in (and in turn put in place a structure where the first team can improve, coaches can develop, and where young development can flourish).

You ask why we can't even sometimes do as well as Motherwell or St Johnstone?

Motherwell season 2013/14: Manager Stuart McCall: SPL 2nd placed; knocked out SC 4th round by Albion Rovers; LC QF defeat to Aberdeen.

Motherwell season 2014/15: Managers Stuart McCall (resigned) / Kenny Black (caretaker) / Ian Barraclough. SPL: 11th. Knocked out both cups in first match.

Motherwell season 2015/16: Managers Ian Barraclough followed by Mark McGhee. SPL: 5th. SC 5th round, LC 3rd round (losing to Morton). McGhee survives a 6 games run without a win in January to mid-February which includes a 6-0 pumping by Hearts.

Motherwell season 2016/17: Manager Mark McGhee: SPL currently 6th, LC qualified from group stage as 2nd placed then lost 5-0 to Celtic in next round.

St Johnstone season 2013/14: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 6th. LC semi final; SC winners.(Wright survives 5 games without a win at start of season and 4 at end of season).

St Johnstone season 2014/15: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 4th (despite losing 5 league games on the bounce in September - October and drawing the next game) LC QF loss to Rangers International, SC put out by Queen of the South in their 2nd match.

St Johnstone season 2015/16: Manager Tommy Wright: SPL 4th (2 runs of 4 games without a win). LC semi final defeat to Hibs SC 4th round exit to Killie.

St Johnstone have had 1 manager during the time we've gone through 5 managers, 3 assistants and a coach / co-assistant manager. Motherwell have had 3 managers in the same time, 1 resigned, 1 was fired and the other is still in post. Motherwell made 1 bad appointment in the time we have had so many managerial casualties. Both Mark McGhee and Tommy Wright have survived being on the kind of run of league results which saw Alex Rae dismissed.

A well researched and presented post,  Dibs.

I've already posted that the job must now be regarded as a  poisoned chalice, but still maintain that it is not unreasonable to expect that a St Mirren team should be capable of a great deal more than we have witnessed since March 2013.

While Motherwell and St Johnstone have had mixed fortune as you have described, we have been on downward trajectory, and I refuse to apologise for deeming that to be unacceptable. 

I've been to 5 matches this season and had seen nothing to suggest that Rae and Farrell could turn things round. Perhaps Wright and McGhee survived periods of poor form because the stakes weren't so high (ie - potential relegation to the third tier of Scottish football). 

3 years ago, we considered the likes of Motherwell and St Johnstone to be our counterparts. I don't think my aspiration for the club to regain such a status is unduly lofty.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2016 by Drew

[Kendo]

Since Danny was sacked we've had a procession of low cost short term sticking plasters as managers while the board were trying to sell the club.

That board have gone and we now have a board who are it for the long term. Hopefully they will appoint a proper manager instead of a sticking plaster type and back him to bring us the success we are looking for.

Irrespective who is appointed it is vital he gets all our support from the start.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

2 minutes ago, Drew said:

A well researched and presented post,  Dibs.

I've already posted that the post must now be regarded as  poisoned chalice, but still maintain that it is not unreasonable to expect that a St Mirren team should be capable of a great deal more than we have witnessed since March 2013.

While Motherwell and St Johnstone have had mixed fortune as you have described, we have been on downward trajectory, and I refuse to apologise for deeming that to be unacceptable. 

I've been to 5 matches this season and had seen nothing to suggest that Rae and Farrell could turn things round. Perhaps Wright and McGhee survived periods of poor form because the stakes weren't so high (ie - potential relegation to the third tier of Scottish football). 

3 years ago, we considered the likes of Motherwell and St Johnstone to be our counterparts. I don't think my aspiration for the club to regain such a status is unduly lofty.

 

 

I would agree that we should be aiming to get into the group of clubs that Motherwell and St Johnstone are part of. I think once things settle down over the next few seasons we'll have Celtic out in front of the SPL for a few seasons to come, Aberdeen, Hearts and International Rangers challenging for the European places, St Johnstone, Motherwell, Dundee (before their next administration event) and Ross County in the next pack, and then Hamilton Accies, Hibs, Dundee United, Inverness, Kilmarnock, Partick Thistle and Falkirk as the SPL teams fighting relegation and Championship teams in the hunt for promotion. Sadly at this point in time we have several rungs of the ladder to go up before we get to near the top 6; safety in the Championship then contending for promotion play offs ; winning promotion ; staying up and building for a top 6 challenge; achieving a top 6 place and staying there for more than 1 season.

When Rae was sacked we were more or less bottom of the Championship on alphabetical order (same points and goal difference as Dunfermline and 1 point behind Morton). I still don't think there is much between the teams and once we get a win and another few results we could suddenly see most of the team beginning to look competent / quite good at this level as confidence returns.In a month we might be 6th or 7th and still within in sight of being in contention for the play off. We only need to spend 1 week inside the top 4 so long as it is the final week of the season (longer would obviously be far better!). 

Anyway, the deed is done. We can only hope that a chairman who hoped to run overseas businesses at the same time as running the club can put things in place so the next management team are a good fit for the club and are given time and support to help us climb the ladder back to where we were before we wanted to go to the next level!

[Drew]

Amen to that!

[zig]

3 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Until the end of October when we had played the first couple of the second round of league games, assuming we were getting some results. Our 3 league defeats have been to the top 3 in the league while we have been under-strength.

PS I have never been a fan of Rae's style of play

Was surprised at timing as I thought there was some sign on Saturday of a bit more drive from  a few players. If that had been the first or second game, we might have been saying we had the making s of a promising team. TBH I think the issue was more that Rae didn't see it as his problem - blamed the players and laughed at unhappy fans. If he couldn't acknowledge his part in it it wasn't going to get better.

[stlucifer]

10 hours ago, faraway saint said:

I believe in Santa Claus.....................we're both going to be very disappointed. 

Eh!!!!???? Why? Have you been a naughty boy this year?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

No. Do you?

You don't think 4 seasons for Danny Lennon was a reasonable amount of time?

I though both were treated pretty shodily at the time, especially Danny Lennon.

Completely agree, however he had adjacent amount of time in post

[Mid Calder Saint]

Lennon was not sacked.Quite simply his contract expired and was not renewed.Main reason for this was the amount of money we paid out to players in order to cancel their contracts.Players like Harkins Imrie Robertson etc.Yes I know first hand about Jon Robertson.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

2 hours ago, zig said:

Was surprised at timing as I thought there was some sign on Saturday of a bit more drive from  a few players. If that had been the first or second game, we might have been saying we had the making s of a promising team. TBH I think the issue was more that Rae didn't see it as his problem - blamed the players and laughed at unhappy fans. If he couldn't acknowledge his part in it it wasn't going to get better.

I wouldn't mind seeing footage of what happened at the end. Fans on facebook have admitted abusing him and being in his face, some have admitted to including sectarian abuse, some have said they were appalled at other fans shouting stuff about Rae's children, others have said police and stewards heard Rae getting sectarian abuse and looked the other way. None of that was a sign things could end well but people saying Rae smiled / laughed / waved at the fans and was arrogant towards the fans are surely overlooking the behaviour of a small section of our fans whose behaviour crossed the line on what's acceptable and descended into some behaviour that was criminal. If fans are going to give abuse out it is beyond laughable if they are incensed when the reaction they get isn't deemed appropriate by them. In the last few interviews Rae said over the last 2 or 3 weeks that he had signed and selected and coached the team and ultimately it was his responsibility.

Tom Walsh was one of the only players Rae named in his criticism in a post-match interview and seems to have flourished since then. Going from making a few subs appearances just after he signed to breaking into the starting XI and becoming our joint top scorer in the league.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

5 minutes ago, Mid Calder Saint said:

Lennon was not sacked.Quite simply his contract expired and was not renewed.Main reason for this was the amount of money we paid out to players in order to cancel their contracts.Players like Harkins Imrie Robertson etc.Yes I know first hand about Jon Robertson.

And since then we've signed 36 cracking successful players under Tommy Craig, Gary Teale, Ian Murray and Alex Rae none of whom were sent back to parent clubs or had their contracts terminated early by mutual consent?

 

[DLBud]

Gus no thanks gave little thought to fan base and grinded results out not the way forward

I'd take grinding out a few results right about now.

[gazmc83]

And since then we've signed 36 cracking successful players under Tommy Craig, Gary Teale, Ian Murray and Alex Rae none of whom were sent back to parent clubs or had their contracts terminated early by mutual consent?

 

Sure there's been other's since but Danny had an alarmingly high amount in his last season which was a big reason behind him not getting a new contract

[Dibbles old paperboy]

Just now, gazmc83 said:

Sure there's been other's since but Danny has an alarmingly high amount in his last season which was a big reason behind him not getting a new contract

Danny's success rate in the transfer market was fine - over 4 years he found us 20 players or more who did a decent or very good job for us in the SPL either from U20 squad stepping up or from mostly free transfers. The seasons since Danny left have seen us sign Keith Watson for 6 months and do well and Tesselaar return and do OK for a 2nd season and after that I am struggling to say the other 34 signings have been good or successful or even adequate!

[gazmc83]

Danny's success rate in the transfer market was fine - over 4 years he found us 20 players or more who did a decent or very good job for us in the SPL either from U20 squad stepping up or from mostly free transfers. The seasons since Danny left have seen us sign Keith Watson for 6 months and do well and Tesselaar return and do OK for a 2nd season and after that I am struggling to say the other 34 signings have been good or successful or even adequate!

The point was in Danny last season several of his signings were paid off costing the club a high amount of additional money , therefore that was ultimately his downfall that was one of the main reasons Gilmour gave for not renewing his contract , I'm not arguing with you that there hasn't been other terrible signings since just that in Danny's last year there was an extra high amount paid off after only a few months with the club

[windae cleaner]

11 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Danny's success rate in the transfer market was fine - over 4 years he found us 20 players or more who did a decent or very good job for us in the SPL either from U20 squad stepping up or from mostly free transfers. The seasons since Danny left have seen us sign Keith Watson for 6 months and do well and Tesselaar return and do OK for a 2nd season and after that I am struggling to say the other 34 signings have been good or successful or even adequate!

Take that up with Gilmour and Co

That was the main reason Danny got his jotters

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 minute ago, windae cleaner said:

Take that up with Gilmour and Co

That was the main reason Danny got his jotters

In future season we paid off managers early but had to keep most of their duff signings on 1 year contracts until they expired... 8 managers / assistants / coaches paid off early since Danny, I'll wager the compo payments will give DL's transfer mutual consenters a run for their money... now who 'signed' all the duff managers and coaches often without interviewing more than a handful of people each time?

[windae cleaner]

5 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

In future season we paid off managers early but had to keep most of their duff signings on 1 year contracts until they expired... 8 managers / assistants / coaches paid off early since Danny, I'll wager the compo payments will give DL's transfer mutual consenters a run for their money... now who 'signed' all the duff managers and coaches often without interviewing more than a handful of people each time?

You will find no one will disagree with you

It's been one bad decision after another since 2013

Personally i thought Teale got a raw deal as he had us playing again for only his main player took away from him for a pittance

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 minute ago, windae cleaner said:

You will find no one will disagree with you

It's been one bad decision after another since 2013

Personally i thought Teale got a raw deal as he had us playing again for only his main player took away from him for a pittance

Agree 100%. Teale got no support I could see from the board when it counted. Thrown in at the deep end as caretaker boss for December. Only announced as interim with 2 days left of the transfer window with lots of speculation about a takeover bid, new ownership for much of that time, no money to spend except what he could save from sending loanees back and terminating contracts early and then McLean sold on final afternoon with no time to source a replacement. He had some bad results in key games, but if we had any designs to try and fight relegation Teale had got the team playing quite well during his time as caretaker, had a run of games where key refereeing decisions went against him as well, then selling McLean hung Teale out on a hiding to nothing. I think Teale could very well have done better than Murray or Rae in the Championship if he had been given time to rebuild.