Saints V Dumbarton

[BigD]

Positives. I thought McKenzie and Gordon looked competent. And although I didn't think either McAllister or Naismith had an excellent game I was impressed with McAllister dropping back and covering Naismith when Naismith went forward. It was very noticable and it deserves mention because as that kind of cover down the right doesn't happen all that often at St Mirren. I could see why Jack Ross would play a 4-5-1 yesterday. He's tried to keep things a bit more solid, but it didn't really work. After the first 20 minutes when Sutton was fairly well supported, the performance levels dropped and all too often Sutton was left isolated. Another positive was the fact that there was less passing the ball around the back four before passing the ball back to Langfield. Most of the passing seemed to have a purpose although the build up play was often too slow and it allowed Dumbarton the opportunity to get their shape back. However in saying that it was that f**king about at the back between Irvine and Langfield that caused the goal so it hasn't been completely eradicated. 

I don't think there were any players who particularly impressed with their overall play. Sutton grafted hard without support and the supply from the flanks wasn't great at all. Mallan was still poor, and his set pieces haven't improved at all Clarkson and McGennis were functional if not stylish. 

Langfield would obviously be slaughtered for his mistake. It was amateurish and it's the kind of mistake he's made often all throughout his career, but the fact is that even if Langfield hadn't f**ked up St Mirren still wouldn't have won. You need to score more than your opponent to win, and St Mirren just aren't capable of converting the two or three chances that their creative play generates. They need to up the creativity and get a better supply to the front line.

That f@@@ing about was actually between langfield and Mackenzie if you had been paying attention

[Stuart Dickson]

4 minutes ago, BigD said:

That f@@@ing about was actually between langfield and Mackenzie if you had been paying attention

Really? I was certain it was Irvine. Langfield passed the ball out to the left, and the player passed it back to him under pressure, Langfield then played it back in the same direction but short and the Dumbarton player nipped in and square the ball. I was certain that was Irvine, it was right infront of where I was sitting, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. 

[Seaside Nipper]

Four points from thirty six sums up our untapped potential, our nucleus of a decent squad, our promising youth. WTF ?Pundits and most commentators on our  plight are feckin clueless.

Our experienced journeymen are not presently good enough. The team is utterly experimental.

We are now realistically in the position that we unwittingly plotted a destination for the minute after we proved to be a match for Celtic and Hearts in 2013

The die was cast in advance of that of course, but let's be honest here, this club is still enduring a freefall launched back in the period after posting the for sale boards. We have been stale and wholly unimpressive for years. No plan, no dynamic, no control, very little optimism.

Presently , the above still applies.

Good luck to Jack Ross, an intelligent, articulate young manager with an undoubted future in the game. Will he work well for us, he has to , cos we cannot bin anyone else.

If he ends up managing us to relegation , well, we will prove to have been a club too far for yet another manager.

Frankly, you have to believe in patience and hard work. That's all there is for a club like us.

[BuddieinEK]

Just watched 15 minutes of highlights on Sons tv...

 

89 minutes of shooty-in from us and one monumental cock up to gift the game!

[FTOF]

58 minutes ago, BigD said:

That f@@@ing about was actually between langfield and Mackenzie if you had been paying attention

Indeed it was.

[Stuart Dickson]

Just watched it on Sons TV and so it was Gary McKenzie. It's even worse watching the pictures back. Ok the obvious is to ask what the f**k was Langfield doing, but also what the f**k is Gordon and McKenzie doing? Two centre backs and both have taken up wide positions. Even if Langfield punts the ball forward and a Dumbarton player picks it up, he's got two players in advanced positions and both St Mirren Centre Halves are out of position. 

[Bobby_F]

Didn't make the game, but just watched 15 minutes of highlights from Dumbarton TV.

An incredibly one-sided game!

It's like Celtic v a minnow, but where somehow the minnow win.

We've given away some absolutely dreadful goals this season, that one perhaps not even the worst, and with us not able to score with even 20 shots on goal, it's no surprise we're in the position we're in.

[DougJamie]

Def not going to question the endeavor or even the tactics, 20 shots is 18 more than Ton managed.  on target but also hitting wood. I will probably sound like a manager here  but carry on like that and we will be ok.

I am positive if just one had gone in we would have won that easily, it didn't..... however compared to Ton and Hibs match it was so much better.....

JRs job is somehow to get the guys believing , I would spend as much time talking with players than passing a ball. We are down on belief....

Look at Dundee, lose 6, then win 2, Look at Hull lose 6, then get the breaks, it takes one goal, one game, even one pass.

As long as I see the team really try they have my support and I saw that Sat.

 

As for the rest, ok, that's what happens when confidence is shot. Langfield made a great save before we imploded.... 

[Sonny]

The Scotsman's report on the game (bold by me). The strikers were as much to blame on Saturday as Langfield (although I still cannot get my head around what he was thinking). Ross did his bit. The strikers did not do theirs. However a vast improvement from the shit served under Rae.

 

When the footballing Gods conspire against you it seems like nothing will ever go your way.

This is how St Mirren will be feeling, as not only did they lose a game they controlled from near start to finish, not only are they now anchored at the foot of the Championship, but they gift-wrapped Dumbarton the three points with an awful individual error.

Credit Dumbarton as they hung on in there and rode their luck, but if new Saints manager Jack Ross doubted the size of the mess he has inherited from the previous regime, then he will now know in no uncertain terms as his charges have now gone more than 200 days without a league win and face a long struggle to safety.

St Mirren would have loved an early breakthrough: what they didn’t need was to dominate and blow a host of good chances as John Sutton, who led the line tremendously, just could not convert a series of opportunities served up to him as the Buddies steamrollered Dumbarton with nothing tangible to show for their first-half efforts, with Lewis Morgan and starting debutant Kyle Magennis also coming agonisingly close.

Having spent the opening period by and large chasing shadows, the visitors could have been ahead straight from the restart when only Jamie Langfield’s save from Garry Fleming at point blank range denied Dumbarton.

If Langfield was the hero on this occasion he was absorbing the wrath of the home fans a little after the hour mark as he presented Dumbarton an opening goal out of nothing when he passed the ball straight to Joe Thomson, who squared for Fleming to tap into the empty goal.

Saints kept going and only an amazing Ryan Hardie miss denied them a point from a game they should have won.

[DougJamie]

Compare above to the sitting back piss we did against Ton, that's what I struggle with.

Saints created more chance against Sons than they had in their previous 2 matches

Misses happen, but if you keep creating we will score.

 

 

[faraway saint]

3 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

Compare above to the sitting back piss we did against Ton, that's what I struggle with.

Saints created more chance against Sons than they had in their previous 2 matches

Misses happen, but if you keep creating we will score.

 

 

Indeed, but we were playing a real shit team, and still lost.

Unlikely we would create chances against a decent side, don't you think? 

[DougJamie]

Just now, faraway saint said:

Indeed, but we were playing a real shit team, and still lost.

Unlikely we would create chances against a decent side, don't you think? 

No, disagree, as better sides open up more and we had to carve out these openings...... But its an extremely valid point you have made, with dignity and nuance

Mate , its Monday, and for some reason I am feeling very positive today.... I even think that we will beat England, that Trump will win and that we wont Brexit.....

I suggest to St Mirren catering to start putting Class A drugs in the pies and I think they listened

[Sonny]

Just now, DougJamie said:

Compare above to the sitting back piss we did against Ton, that's what I struggle with.

Saints created more chance against Sons than they had in their previous 2 matches

Misses happen, but if you keep creating we will score.

 

 

Against the Ton we had Hutton, Walsh and Shankland starting and none of them broke sweat or put in a tackle. We started the game with 3 players short. On Saturday we had 11 players playing from the kick off and the difference was huge. And it looks like Magennis and McAllister have forced their way into the team which is good news. They are young and we cannot expect too much and we are still very short of players but at least we now have players actually trying during a game.

[Sonny]

2 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Indeed, but we were playing a real shit team, and still lost.

Unlikely we would create chances against a decent side, don't you think? 

I really do not know what you were expecting Faraway when Ross took over - 4 straight wins and challenging for promotion?

We played Hibs, Dundee Utd,  Morton and Dumbarton with Hibs and Morton being away - all difficult games in this League. Ross has an absolutely shit squad of players who had only played one formation under Rae of 4-4-2 which wasn't working and a tactic of hoofball - believe me it was dire to watch. Ross gave the existing players a chance but changed the formation and tactics in every game since he took over - trying to find what works and what suits the players available. We still did not get any points but suddenly we looked like we at least had a plan. And Ross identified players who were not putting in a shift. He has subsequently dropped Hutton, Walsh, Hardie and Shankland from the starting line-up and replaced them with energy and drive and no little skill from U20 lads.

We need points and I want them as much as you. Earlier this season we played Dumbarton and it was an even game ending 1-1. Saturday was not an even game and we played them off the park (watch the highlights) but failed to score and threw the game away with a goalkeeping error. A huge improvement which at least gives me some hope of better things to come unlike the performances at the start of the season.

We still have a shit squad unfortunately and Ross is having to work with it to the best he can do. Some wasters have been dropped but have to be used as subs as we have no-one else. Others are not starting. Clarkson puts in a shift playing in midfield but he is out of position and his legs have gone. But who else is there? Both keepers are rubbish. On Saturday it was the most composed the back four have looked all season (beside Langfield). It was the most composed and energetic the midfield had played all season. With even a ba-hair of luck we would have buried them but it was not to be. Gutted we still do not have any points but I can see the difference Ross has made with little at his disposal.

And to answer your question every team in this League is better than us as the League table shows so there are no easy games for us. We are the shittiest team in this League.

We were not bad against Dundee Utd  and did create chances but shit against Hibs and Morton. But some regular players have been dumped and new players brought in. Time will tell if we can still create decent chances in games to come but I for one feel a lot better now that I did under Rae. But Ross desperately needs replacement players.

 

[Lord Pityme]

17 minutes ago, Sonny said:

I really do not know what you were expecting Faraway when Ross took over - 4 straight wins and challenging for promotion?

We played Hibs, Dundee Utd,  Morton and Dumbarton with Hibs and Morton being away - all difficult games in this League. Ross has an absolutely shit squad of players who had only played one formation under Rae of 4-4-2 which wasn't working and a tactic of hoofball - believe me it was dire to watch. Ross gave the existing players a chance but changed the formation and tactics in every game since he took over - trying to find what works and what suits the players available. We still did not get any points but suddenly we looked like we at least had a plan. And Ross identified players who were not putting in a shift. He has subsequently dropped Hutton, Walsh, Hardie and Shankland from the starting line-up and replaced them with energy and drive and no little skill from U20 lads.

We need points and I want them as much as you. Earlier this season we played Dumbarton and it was an even game ending 1-1. Saturday was not an even game and we played them off the park (watch the highlights) but failed to score and threw the game away with a goalkeeping error. A huge improvement which at least gives me some hope of better things to come unlike the performances at the start of the season.

We still have a shit squad unfortunately and Ross is having to work with it to the best he can do. Some wasters have been dropped but have to be used as subs as we have no-one else. Others are not starting. Clarkson puts in a shift playing in midfield but he is out of position and his legs have gone. But who else is there? Both keepers are rubbish. On Saturday it was the most composed the back four have looked all season (beside Langfield). It was the most composed and energetic the midfield had played all season. With even a ba-hair of luck we would have buried them but it was not to be. Gutted we still do not have any points but I can see the difference Ross has made with little at his disposal.

And to answer your question every team in this League is better than us as the League table shows so there are no easy games for us. We are the shittiest team in this League.

We were not bad against Dundee Utd  and did create chances but shit against Hibs and Morton. But some regular players have been dumped and new players brought in. Time will tell if we can still create decent chances in games to come but I for one feel a lot better now that I did under Rae. But Ross desperately needs replacement players.

 

Ross has already said he took the job knowing he wouldnt be getting a load of replacements in January, so how is he going to prove better than his predecessor if he has the same tools for the job?

we are bottom of the league because we are the worst in the league, if everyone could accept that, then and only then can we start to move forward. Luck will not save us from relegation, neither will "better performances"... only goals and points count.

[Sonny]

Just now, Lord Pityme said:

Ross has already said he took the job knowing he wouldnt be getting a load of replacements in January, so how is he going to prove better than his predecessor if he has the same tools for the job?

we are bottom of the league because we are the worst in the league, if everyone could accept that, then and only then can we start to move forward. Luck will not save us from relegation, neither will "better performances"... only goals and points count.

Do not think anyone is arguing that we need points are they? And I do not think Ross is expecting a load of replacements in Jan (neither am I). Couple of loanees out may give him a couple more in. That would be about it. Do you not see an improvement since Rae left?

[Lord Pityme]

12 minutes ago, Sonny said:

Do not think anyone is arguing that we need points are they? And I do not think Ross is expecting a load of replacements in Jan (neither am I). Couple of loanees out may give him a couple more in. That would be about it. Do you not see an improvement since Rae left?

I am not getting at you bud, just the frustration we are all feeling. Imo, if you are talking points gained then, no there is no improvement. Rae's shelling tactics were horrendous to watch, however inspite of that we picked up draws, and could even have won a couple of games late on, Sutton's miss at Ayr, at the death of a horrific game being the one that springs to mind.

 We now give teams one and two goal starts, or indeed in Dunfermline surrender the lead twice in one game. On top of that we have seen Langfield gift chance after chance, with Webster and McKenzie chipping in with woeful play that lead to goals.

Ross has now gone through the squad, moved onto the U20's and we still cannot score against Dumbarton. So i dont see improvement, I see change where we try to play the ball a lot more, but the skill/stamina/legs to do that effectively we lack. If we are pinning our hope on the replacement of two loanees then I cant sed our fortunes changing.

indeed i would be suprised if Hardie and Walsh both go as Sevco wont play them, and no one else is likely to want them, and we love a bargain down at the 2021. One or both may well be back?

[faraway saint]

1 hour ago, Sonny said:

I really do not know what you were expecting Faraway when Ross took over - 4 straight wins and challenging for promotion?

We played Hibs, Dundee Utd,  Morton and Dumbarton with Hibs and Morton being away - all difficult games in this League. Ross has an absolutely shit squad of players who had only played one formation under Rae of 4-4-2 which wasn't working and a tactic of hoofball - believe me it was dire to watch. Ross gave the existing players a chance but changed the formation and tactics in every game since he took over - trying to find what works and what suits the players available. We still did not get any points but suddenly we looked like we at least had a plan. And Ross identified players who were not putting in a shift. He has subsequently dropped Hutton, Walsh, Hardie and Shankland from the starting line-up and replaced them with energy and drive and no little skill from U20 lads.

We need points and I want them as much as you. Earlier this season we played Dumbarton and it was an even game ending 1-1. Saturday was not an even game and we played them off the park (watch the highlights) but failed to score and threw the game away with a goalkeeping error. A huge improvement which at least gives me some hope of better things to come unlike the performances at the start of the season.

We still have a shit squad unfortunately and Ross is having to work with it to the best he can do. Some wasters have been dropped but have to be used as subs as we have no-one else. Others are not starting. Clarkson puts in a shift playing in midfield but he is out of position and his legs have gone. But who else is there? Both keepers are rubbish. On Saturday it was the most composed the back four have looked all season (beside Langfield). It was the most composed and energetic the midfield had played all season. With even a ba-hair of luck we would have buried them but it was not to be. Gutted we still do not have any points but I can see the difference Ross has made with little at his disposal.

And to answer your question every team in this League is better than us as the League table shows so there are no easy games for us. We are the shittiest team in this League.

We were not bad against Dundee Utd  and did create chances but shit against Hibs and Morton. But some regular players have been dumped and new players brought in. Time will tell if we can still create decent chances in games to come but I for one feel a lot better now that I did under Rae. But Ross desperately needs replacement players.

 

I didn't, and was very clear not to, mention any of the previous games, although the manner of defeat against Morton could have been posted AGAIN but I see no point.

All I said, and it didn't really require a 500 word response, was, sure we created chances against a team that are a shit as we are and lost but I doubt very much we will create as many chances against better teams which is very worrying.

I agree Ross needs time but as a few ,including Lord Lookatme, have pointed out, we were in the shit when he came but are even deeper now.

When do we start seeing a manger who can get more out of the current crop of players as I'm fed up hearing about this January window being our saviour, I though the manger was meant to fill that role.

See, you've got me repeating myself now.

[DougJamie]

10 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

I didn't, and was very clear not to, mention any of the previous games, although the manner of defeat against Morton could have been posted AGAIN but I see no point.

All I said, and it didn't really require a 500 word response, was, sure we created chances against a team that are a shit as we are and lost but I doubt very much we will create as many chances against better teams which is very worrying.

I agree Ross needs time but as a few ,including Lord Lookatme, have pointed out, we were in the shit when he came but are even deeper now.

When do we start seeing a manger who can get more out of the current crop of players as I'm fed up hearing about this January window being our saviour, I though the manger was meant to fill that role.

See, you've got me repeating myself now.

Agreed, especially on this Jan window. The only huge difference that made, was when we sold Kenny and surrended on SPL position

[shull]

1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

I didn't, and was very clear not to, mention any of the previous games, although the manner of defeat against Morton could have been posted AGAIN but I see no point.

All I said, and it didn't really require a 500 word response, was, sure we created chances against a team that are a shit as we are and lost but I doubt very much we will create as many chances against better teams which is very worrying.

I agree Ross needs time but as a few ,including Lord Lookatme, have pointed out, we were in the shit when he came but are even deeper now.

When do we start seeing a manger who can get more out of the current crop of players as I'm fed up hearing about this January window being our saviour, I though the manger was meant to fill that role.

See, you've got me repeating myself now.

Too many words to read. 

Gonnae summarise please? 

[stevie-dee]

On 06/11/2016 at 8:03 AM, gc_SMFC said:

Sums up all of our 'youth' products. Technically not good enough, physically behind and mentally fragile.

Far too much focus and hope has been spent on playing football the 'right way', which has only produced a handful of players who fail to standout in an awful Championship side, was there not a hope we could one day field an entire team of our youth players? 

The sooner we rip up the half arsed approached we have to developing youth products the better. I'd rather see every penny spent on scouting.

 

Total Bollocks

 

[Sonny]

3 hours ago, Lord Pityme said:

I am not getting at you bud, just the frustration we are all feeling. Imo, if you are talking points gained then, no there is no improvement. Rae's shelling tactics were horrendous to watch, however inspite of that we picked up draws, and could even have won a couple of games late on, Sutton's miss at Ayr, at the death of a horrific game being the one that springs to mind.

 We now give teams one and two goal starts, or indeed in Dunfermline surrender the lead twice in one game. On top of that we have seen Langfield gift chance after chance, with Webster and McKenzie chipping in with woeful play that lead to goals.

Ross has now gone through the squad, moved onto the U20's and we still cannot score against Dumbarton. So i dont see improvement, I see change where we try to play the ball a lot more, but the skill/stamina/legs to do that effectively we lack. If we are pinning our hope on the replacement of two loanees then I cant sed our fortunes changing.

indeed i would be suprised if Hardie and Walsh both go as Sevco wont play them, and no one else is likely to want them, and we love a bargain down at the 2021. One or both may well be back?

We are all frustrated Pityme. None more so than me on Saturday when we threw away 3 points.

I was wrong when I thought at the beginning of the season we had a decent squad. The loaness in particular have failed to deliver and neither has Hutton, S Gallagher nor C Gallagher . That is six out of 12 players we signed. And Webster, Quinn and McKenzie have all been injury prone. And Clarkson only has 45 mins in him. Consequently I did not expect any drastic improvement under Ross with individuals but hoped for at least an improvement in formation and tactics and commitment. Ross still has a shit squad to work with.

Walsh and Hardie are only on loan until January so I believe we can punt both of them then. Shankland is on loan until May and I do not see Aberdeen recalling him on his current form.

[gc_SMFC]

13 hours ago, stevie-dee said:

Total Bollocks

 

 

Please explain why?

The youth academy has produced zero transfer fees for players, other than McGinn who was out of contract and forced his move. We are outlaying money that is bringing no financial gain back to the club. A key element to any decent youth system is making money out of players, ideally with minimal outlay.

The youth academy has produced zero players who stand out at Championship level in my eyes. What we have is a lot of carbon copy players, who lack any realy technical ability, tactical nous or physical stats, that make them stand out over a course of games.

Is the youth squad not toiling in the under 20's league as well?

The youth academy has added nothing in real terms to the club, other than a self congratuarly pat on the back for bringing through our young players who play football the 'right way'. When all evidence shows, that they are all mainly incapable of being competitive, and mainly aiding the team in getting results.

Since we decided that our youth products were the way forward, we have slipped down the leagues. With investment being withdrawn, as we apparently have youth players ready to step up. When we never have.

We should be looking to attact players from other systems, let someone else do all the work then reap the rewards. What does our youth academy offer compared to other teams, why would a young player sign for us instead of someone else? Are we selling players on, are our players making headlines? No, quite simply our youth 'academy' set-up is a bit of a joke.

We should be looking outwith Scotland instead of relying on a tiny pool of players in the West of Scotland; who it appears we can't even scout fully  to attempt to cherry pick the best.

The sooner we overhaul or bin the current set-up the better. It could be decent but it's far from it.

 

[stevie-dee]

I don't think the Academy is doing things the wrong way What I see having being going to youth games  every week for the last 10 years is a lack of talent coming through the set up. I reckon the present generation do not have the hunger of previous generations of players to make it in the game. If we were as a club to ditch the Youth Academy then where would the talented young players from this region learn the game they could go to other PY clubs or play at boys clubs and we might miss out on a real gem of a player.

Edited November 8, 2016 by stevie-dee

[gc_SMFC]

1 hour ago, stevie-dee said:

I don't think the Academy is doing things the wrong way What I see having being going to youth games  every week for the last 10 years is a lack of talent coming through the set up. I reckon the present generation do not have the hunger of previous generations of players to make it in the game. If we were as a club to ditch the Youth Academy then where would the talented young players from this region learn the game they could go to other PY clubs or play at boys clubs and we might miss out on a real gem of a player.

 

2

So the youth academy is definietly doing things the wrong way. 

How many clubs have youth academy's in our area? Are we doing anything different to them? Are we bringing in players from further afield then them?

The area we operate in, means our chances of uncovering one decent player that can be sold are incredibly slim. If we want a decent youth academy we need to be bringing in players from everywhere, and we need lots of them. That takes lots of investment; in terms of coaching and a scouting network, something our club maintains is part of the managers job, which is equally as foolish. Keep scouting and transfer knowledge within the club, not a position that is likely to change every two years.

A club our size should be exploiting near finished products that we can sign for free then sell on, instead of trying to develop our own players. Until we change our youth setup or at least push it down our recruitment policy we will struggle to have real success on the field.

Look at the Pozzo's tenure at Udinese, Watford and Grenada (before they were sold). An entire setup that focused on youth. Not developing the players, but signing the promising players before anyone else. Alexis Sanchez was signed by Udinese as a 14 year old, before the major clubs could even get a look in. Why because they have a global scouting network, and have built their clubs around retaining experience and knowledge. Recognising that a first team manager is one of the worst people to rely on when it comes to transfers and youth development. I'm not saying we have the resources that they do, but we can certainly attempt to sign players from further afield than Scotland, to increase our chances of success. As a scouting network of any efficieny will support the first team and youth prospects.

Much better than the half arsed approach the club takes to most things!

Edited November 8, 2016 by gc_SMFC
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