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2 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

First off I have never claimed that anyone at SMiSA is lining their pockets. I've no idea where you are getting that from. Second, SMiSA is a Community Benefit Society - SMiSA chose to set themselves up in that way because it comes with certain tax breaks that help in it's operation. That means they have a legal obligation to the local community. Third, my objection to how the ballot was run was that it was manipulated by the SMISA board who took the decision to leave off other options from the ballot paper. I've no idea if any other option would have won, but it wasn't the first time the SMISA board have manipulated a vote within the organisation. Fourth, clearly I don't believe that this £9k will be the be all and end all of St Mirren's season. That's exactly the point I've been making. It's absurd to me that anyone would think that an extra player on £450 per week is going to keep St Mirren in the second tier all on their own yet that was how SMISA sold it, and it's how people like you have represented it over the last few days. 

You say I'm short sighted, yet your argument is that this £9k - this £450 per week - is essential to the club to give it every chance of staying up. My argument is that the same £9k could have been better utilised by investing it in community related activities that would not only have returned a profit on the £9k, but it would have increased club engagement within the local community, with a number of possible spin offs from increasing supporters numbers to less obvious things like the opportunity to create a large buying group that would help in sourcing team wear at a much better price than St Mirren can do on their own. 

So if it isn't benefiting SMISA members why would they do anything to the determent of the club? If they aren't lining their pockets what's your actual argument about them not doing the best for the club? For the millionth time they do a lot for the community, they have never set themselves out as 100% of all money raised will go to the community, if they have show me where?. A community Benefit Society don't have to give every penny of hard working fans direct debits to community funds so what's your point?  News flash these fans can vote how they want their money spent and SMISA have never hid that fact.  They went out with a clear diplomatic vote, yes to player funds no to player funds.  Hardly a manipulation, you again don't give your fellow fans enough credit, says more about you to be honest  You genuinely have no idea if another ballet option would win? I actually believe that but that's probably down to how stubborn you're coming across.  Money to the player fund would of won every day of the week.  Your claim that they manipulated the ballets is so far off the mark it's hilarious.  To imply St Mirren fans are not smart enough to know that voting no would of meant the money would be carried over and used for something else is ridiculous. Show me where it says they have a legal obligation to the community to give them every penny in the discretion fund? 

the £9k will not be but if it's the difference between one or two players that's what fans have voted on.  If you're chasing a player and can offer them and extra £200, £300 a week are you saying that potentially couldn't be the difference between a signing or not? If you think without the £9k we would be getting exact same signings and players you're tuned to the moon.  It's not everything but it is still considerable money.  Would you turn your nose up if someone offered you £9k over the next five months? I never said it was essential you are clearly clutching at straws.  

Your idea for the £9k is a great one, no one can argue about it but just because other fans think we're better spending the money on the player budget, the club want that, SMISA are happy to put that to the vote and they aren't doing anything illegal even as a community benefit society what's the big deal? SMISA do and will continue to invest in community. 

You're been so petty and putting your fellow fans down because they have a different opinion to you.  Get off your high horse, you've cancelled your membership and made a significant song and dance about it.  It's over, decision made and the right one in 88% of voting fans opinion.  You are the adult equivalent of a boy that takes his ball home because his mates want to play HORSE and he wants to play records! 

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33 minutes ago, div said:

In the same way I have asked Stuart to reign in his abuse of the wider support, can I also ask each of you to refrain from personal abuse when discussing things with him or indeed any other poster.

Ta!

I agree, it is getting out of hand. 

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I had no hesitation in voting for funds to be diverted to the playing budget. Indeed I would be happy for more funds to be put in a players pot as a incentive to avoid relegation.In saying that we would continue to survive comfortably we are a well run club and if Livi and Airdrie can remain full time on crowds of under one thousand in my opinion our hard core of 2500 would still continue with their support.My wife son and I had no hesitation in signing up with SMISA who do an absolutely fantastic job.Just look at Jim Crawford and others the way they recently offered their services in the cleaning up of our stadium.We have a new Board and Management Team who are working their buts off and deserve our loyal support.Yes they will make mistakes however more often than not they will get things right.Merry Xmas to all.COYS.

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I voted no. Every season there will probably always be a better player that we could use to push us that small extra step, be it to avoid relegation, push for a playoff spot, promotion, European spot. We will never have a perfect squad that couldn't be improved so I just didn't want this vote to set the precedent that the fans are integral in the future playing budget on a regular or constant basis. That's not what I wanted my monthly subscription to be used on. 

However, upon seeing the results of the poll I can see that I am in the vast minority! So I am happy to accept the will of the people. But if the same vote comes around again in a few months, I think I would still vote no for the same reason.  

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4 minutes ago, BoWSaint said:

I voted no. Every season there will probably always be a better player that we could use to push us that small extra step, be it to avoid relegation, push for a playoff spot, promotion, European spot. We will never have a perfect squad that couldn't be improved so I just didn't want this vote to set the precedent that the fans are integral in the future playing budget on a regular or constant basis. That's not what I wanted my monthly subscription to be used on. 

However, upon seeing the results of the poll I can see that I am in the vast minority! So I am happy to accept the will of the people. But if the same vote comes around again in a few months, I think I would still vote no for the same reason.  

A very sensible post from someone that has a difference of opinion.  Everyone has an opinion and respecting that should be part of being a fanbase.  Can completely understand your reasons for voting no and I would probably of done the same if we were mid table or even fighting for play-off/ Championship.  Thing that made me vote yes was it's a relegation dog fight now.  Any amount however small I'm happy to go towards that fight.  Does raise more questions though if we get into SPFL again, chances are every season would again be a relegation battle... Do we then always give the January money?  Ideally not. 

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33 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

So if it isn't benefiting SMISA members why would they do anything to the determent of the club? If they aren't lining their pockets what's your actual argument about them not doing the best for the club? For the millionth time they do a lot for the community, they have never set themselves out as 100% of all money raised will go to the community, if they have show me where?. A community Benefit Society don't have to give every penny of hard working fans direct debits to community funds so what's your point?  News flash these fans can vote how they want their money spent and SMISA have never hid that fact.  They went out with a clear diplomatic vote, yes to player funds no to player funds.  Hardly a manipulation, you again don't give your fellow fans enough credit, says more about you to be honest  You genuinely have no idea if another ballet option would win? I actually believe that but that's probably down to how stubborn you're coming across.  Money to the player fund would of won every day of the week.  Your claim that they manipulated the ballets is so far off the mark it's hilarious.  To imply St Mirren fans are not smart enough to know that voting no would of meant the money would be carried over and used for something else is ridiculous. Show me where it says they have a legal obligation to the community to give them every penny in the discretion fund? 

the £9k will not be but if it's the difference between one or two players that's what fans have voted on.  If you're chasing a player and can offer them and extra £200, £300 a week are you saying that potentially couldn't be the difference between a signing or not? If you think without the £9k we would be getting exact same signings and players you're tuned to the moon.  It's not everything but it is still considerable money.  Would you turn your nose up if someone offered you £9k over the next five months? I never said it was essential you are clearly clutching at straws.  

Your idea for the £9k is a great one, no one can argue about it but just because other fans think we're better spending the money on the player budget, the club want that, SMISA are happy to put that to the vote and they aren't doing anything illegal even as a community benefit society what's the big deal? SMISA do and will continue to invest in community. 

You're been so petty and putting your fellow fans down because they have a different opinion to you.  Get off your high horse, you've cancelled your membership and made a significant song and dance about it.  It's over, decision made and the right one in 88% of voting fans opinion.  You are the adult equivalent of a boy that takes his ball home because his mates want to play HORSE and he wants to play records! 

For the umpteenth time SMiSA is a Community Benefit Society. It enjoys certain privileges as a result. I do not believe that a Community Benefit Society gifting money to a commercial business for the purpose of either increasing a players salary or hiring an extra footballer for no return, is a legitimate way in which that Society should operate. As far as I can see it would, at the very least, be against the spirit of the FCA Guidelines under which BenComms are supposed to operate. 

As for "fellow fans", look if they were smart they would be having a much closer look right now at how the club operates and they should be demanding that the business takes steps to run itself far more efficiently in all areas of the club. If they were smart they would be demanding the kind of transparency that is sadly lacking from the SMISA "board" currently. They'd be questioning why the SMISA "board" is in breach of it's own constitution. And they would be questioning why the SMISA "board" took the rather extraordinary decision to co-opt two new members onto their "board" just prior to granting an interest free loan to the commercial business that members weren't consulted on. The fact that "fellow fans" appear not to care leads me to one of two conclusions - either these "fellow fans" are stupid, or they really don't give a f**k about the club they profess their undying love for. If you've got another conclusion I'd be happy to consider it. :rolleyes:

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2 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

A very sensible post from someone that has a difference of opinion.  Everyone has an opinion and respecting that should be part of being a fanbase.  Can completely understand your reasons for voting no and I would probably of done the same if we were mid table or even fighting for play-off/ Championship.  Thing that made me vote yes was it's a relegation dog fight now.  Any amount however small I'm happy to go towards that fight.  Does raise more questions though if we get into SPFL again, chances are every season would again be a relegation battle... Do we then always give the January money?  Ideally not. 

Aye so far you've shown tremendous respect to Shull and me and our opinions. 

Stick your ballet up yer arse. I prefer football. :rolleyes:

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Just now, BoWSaint said:

I voted no. Every season there will probably always be a better player that we could use to push us that small extra step, be it to avoid relegation, push for a playoff spot, promotion, European spot. We will never have a perfect squad that couldn't be improved so I just didn't want this vote to set the precedent that the fans are integral in the future playing budget on a regular or constant basis. That's not what I wanted my monthly subscription to be used on. 

However, upon seeing the results of the poll I can see that I am in the vast minority! So I am happy to accept the will of the people. But if the same vote comes around again in a few months, I think I would still vote no for the same reason.  

I would guess the majority agree with you BoW about regular payments to fund players but I for one, have one priority at the moment and that is to prevent us dropping down to a lower tier which would be pretty disastrous for our Club. I in fact would be willing to let my £2 from now until May (£10)  be used if it keeps us up. However once May comes and Jack has a chance to bin the poor signings and build his own squad then he is doing it within the budget he has. I would only consider any future payment to a player budget if we are stupid enough to get into a similar situation again where we are bottom of the second tier and facing oblivion in the third. I would be voting no in other circumstances including relegation from the Premiership. For me the now is not about principle but about survival.

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1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Tell me Kenny, it that was the case, what would be stopping - lets say - Amazon from setting up a Community Benefit Society as a tax efficient way of paying their profits into the business under the guise of looking after the community of shareholders of the company. 

As it was not St Mirren but members of the local community who set up SMISA, and as it was individual members of SMISA who freely voted, then this is yet another of the ludicrous comparisons you magic up in order to direct attention away from your floundering pronouncements.

You're talking mince, as usual. 

If Amazon tried something similar it would be just another glaring loophole in "tax management" regulations.  As there isn't such a loophole and they don't do that - why offer it up as a possibility?  Apart from desperation?

Members of the community have taken a decision with which you disagree, you don't like democracy, so you whine, as usual.

 

Keep floundering - it has its amusements.  :)

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33 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

For the umpteenth time SMiSA is a Community Benefit Society. It enjoys certain privileges as a result. I do not believe that a Community Benefit Society gifting money to a commercial business for the purpose of either increasing a players salary or hiring an extra footballer for no return, is a legitimate way in which that Society should operate. As far as I can see it would, at the very least, be against the spirit of the FCA Guidelines under which BenComms are supposed to operate. 

As for "fellow fans", look if they were smart they would be having a much closer look right now at how the club operates and they should be demanding that the business takes steps to run itself far more efficiently in all areas of the club. If they were smart they would be demanding the kind of transparency that is sadly lacking from the SMISA "board" currently. They'd be questioning why the SMISA "board" is in breach of it's own constitution. And they would be questioning why the SMISA "board" took the rather extraordinary decision to co-opt two new members onto their "board" just prior to granting an interest free loan to the commercial business that members weren't consulted on. The fact that "fellow fans" appear not to care leads me to one of two conclusions - either these "fellow fans" are stupid, or they really don't give a f**k about the club they profess their undying love for. If you've got another conclusion I'd be happy to consider it. :rolleyes:

So it's not SMISA's money, it's the money of paying members that pay £12/ £25 a month and have voted for how they want it spent.  Again what's wrong with that, I pay my money I would expect a vote on how it gets spent, exactly what SMISA have done.  SMISA raises money in different ways for different projects but at no time have they hid the fact that they are there to support St Mirren.  There advertising posters around the club even state funds have went towards youth development and even players wages.  That isn't community related, you don't seem to be grasping that Community Benefit Society does not mean every single penny, SMISA are there to benefit St Mirren and the local community.  You see a clue in there? Probably not.  They aren't doing anything wrong or illegal, I think they've been perfectly transparent but you know what if you don't what power do they actually have? All paying members have a vote on how funds are spent.  The £10k was a loan as well, money will be returned! 

'If they were smart' yet again with the put downs. No one is under and illusion at how tough the job is SMISA GS and the board have got.  This season has been very poor a big part of that IMO is the hangover from Alex Rae and his signing policy.  In regards to board members and your laughable comment about breaching constitutions I couldn't care less.  I feel fan ownership is a long term gain for the club and I appreciate we have an inexperienced board that are learning as they go along.  SMISA is not for profit, GS is a St Mirren fan trying to do his best for the club and will hand it over to the fans of St Mirren in under 10 years in what is a very transparent finance deal.  Maybe you have the expectations that a small Championship football team will be ran like Bayern Munich 6 months after a new board has been put in place but other fans have more realistic expectations that it'll be a long bumpy ride until things settle out. 

The £10K is a loan, SMISA made the choice to act fast and far from being stupid most fans are in agreeing that was the right call.  You clearly think anyone with a different opinion from you is stupid, I don't think anyone (even Shull) thinks that What I do know is a significant number of people think you are an a*se hole for the way you treat fellow fans.  Must make you feel so good about yourself calling people stupid, can tell you are an upstanding member of the community you are so desperate to support. 

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46 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Aye so far you've shown tremendous respect to Shull and me and our opinions. 

Stick your ballet up yer arse. I prefer football. :rolleyes:

respect is earned, why would anyone respect a small man that calls anyone on a message board with a different opinion to his stupid. 

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23 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

So it's not SMISA's money, it's the money of paying members that pay £12/ £25 a month and have voted for how they want it spent.  Again what's wrong with that, I pay my money I would expect a vote on how it gets spent, exactly what SMISA have done.  SMISA raises money in different ways for different projects but at no time have they hid the fact that they are there to support St Mirren.  There advertising posters around the club even state funds have went towards youth development and even players wages.  That isn't community related, you don't seem to be grasping that Community Benefit Society does not mean every single penny, SMISA are there to benefit St Mirren and the local community.  You see a clue in there? Probably not.  They aren't doing anything wrong or illegal, I think they've been perfectly transparent but you know what if you don't what power do they actually have? All paying members have a vote on how funds are spent.  The £10k was a loan as well, money will be returned! 

'If they were smart' yet again with the put downs. No one is under and illusion at how tough the job is SMISA GS and the board have got.  This season has been very poor a big part of that IMO is the hangover from Alex Rae and his signing policy.  In regards to board members and your laughable comment about breaching constitutions I couldn't care less.  I feel fan ownership is a long term gain for the club and I appreciate we have an inexperienced board that are learning as they go along.  SMISA is not for profit, GS is a St Mirren fan trying to do his best for the club and will hand it over to the fans of St Mirren in under 10 years in what is a very transparent finance deal.  Maybe you have the expectations that a small Championship football team will be ran like Bayern Munich 6 months after a new board has been put in place but other fans have more realistic expectations that it'll be a long bumpy ride until things settle out. 

The £10K is a loan, SMISA made the choice to act fast and far from being stupid most fans are in agreeing that was the right call.  You clearly think anyone with a different opinion from you is stupid, I don't think anyone (even Shull) thinks that What I do know is a significant number of people think you are an a*se hole for the way you treat fellow fans.  Must make you feel so good about yourself calling people stupid, can tell you are an upstanding member of the community you are so desperate to support. 

Sorry? Where? What poster is that? 

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A community benefit society gains a tax advantage because there is no employee payments as long as SMISA are using volunteers or members giving their time freely they stay within the legal terms.

I know it is a very loose reason but it can be stated that keeping St Mirren up is a benefit to the full Paisley community. From what I have seen from SMISA they are a community benefit society linked to a football club so therefore their focus is football related. A one off donation to the playing budget added to the other wider community projects is fine by me and by the looks of it the majority of the support. I can assure you if SMISA had done anything wrong they would up to their necks in various legal matters. I would even suggest that you are aware they are not doing anything wrong as the way you come across you would have reported them to prove your point. Just because they have not done what you want you throw your toys out

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21 minutes ago, notabuddie said:

A community benefit society gains a tax advantage because there is no employee payments as long as SMISA are using volunteers or members giving their time freely they stay within the legal terms.

I know it is a very loose reason but it can be stated that keeping St Mirren up is a benefit to the full Paisley community. From what I have seen from SMISA they are a community benefit society linked to a football club so therefore their focus is football related. A one off donation to the playing budget added to the other wider community projects is fine by me and by the looks of it the majority of the support. I can assure you if SMISA had done anything wrong they would up to their necks in various legal matters. I would even suggest that you are aware they are not doing anything wrong as the way you come across you would have reported them to prove your point. Just because they have not done what you want you throw your toys out

That's nonsense. There is absolutely no requirement for a community benefit society to employ solely volunteers. 

http://communityshares.org.uk/resources/handbook/community-benefit-societies

SMiSA are failing under the FCA guidance when it comes to Purpose. 

Quote

Purpose: The FCA says that “the conduct of a community benefit society’s business must be entirely for the benefit of the community.” There can be no alternative or secondary purposes, including any that may preferentially benefit the members. 

Making a gift to a commercial business to cover staff wages cannot be described as being for the benefit of the community. The guidance couldn't be any clearer. 

Oh and someone should point out to Kenny Morrison that he too is wrong. A Community Benefit Society must be run for the wider interests of the community - not just the membership and some paid employees in a commercial business the BenComm owns some shares in. If that was the case then it would have been more fitting had SMiSA registered as a Co-Operative Society which it is not. 

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Guest TPAFKATS
Tell me Kenny, it that was the case, what would be stopping - lets say - Amazon from setting up a Community Benefit Society as a tax efficient way of paying their profits into the business under the guise of looking after the community of shareholders of the company. 
I think you should perhaps take Gruffalos advice and have a wee look at the FCA guidelines are as to what the obligations are of the Society that you have been co-opted onto as a "Director". :rolleyes:

If you think Amazon are missing a trick with tax you should suggest this to them. I'm sure they would handsomely reward someone who could make them millions of pounds.

Unfortunately for you, I see this having a similar outcome to your other harebrained theories such as giving everyone 20 odd thousand to fund all their public services.
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I voted no. Every season there will probably always be a better player that we could use to push us that small extra step, be it to avoid relegation, push for a playoff spot, promotion, European spot. We will never have a perfect squad that couldn't be improved so I just didn't want this vote to set the precedent that the fans are integral in the future playing budget on a regular or constant basis. That's not what I wanted my monthly subscription to be used on. 
However, upon seeing the results of the poll I can see that I am in the vast minority! So I am happy to accept the will of the people. But if the same vote comes around again in a few months, I think I would still vote no for the same reason.  

Completely agree (although Europe would be dreamland), did the same, will likely do the same again if similar vote in the future and will accept the outcome/difference of opinion as I have done this time round.
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1 hour ago, Stuart Dickson said:

That's nonsense. There is absolutely no requirement for a community benefit society to employ solely volunteers. 

http://communityshares.org.uk/resources/handbook/community-benefit-societies

SMiSA are failing under the FCA guidance when it comes to Purpose. 

Making a gift to a commercial business to cover staff wages cannot be described as being for the benefit of the community. The guidance couldn't be any clearer. 

Oh and someone should point out to Kenny Morrison that he too is wrong. A Community Benefit Society must be run for the wider interests of the community - not just the membership and some paid employees in a commercial business the BenComm owns some shares in. If that was the case then it would have been more fitting had SMiSA registered as a Co-Operative Society which it is not. 

OK Stuart, are you going to actually do something about any of this or just bash your gums in a rather embarrassing post-resignation rant?

What is your end game here because literally nobody cares what you think?

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33 minutes ago, tony soprano said:


If you think Amazon are missing a trick with tax you should suggest this to them. I'm sure they would handsomely reward someone who could make them millions of pounds.

Unfortunately for you, I see this having a similar outcome to your other harebrained theories such as giving everyone 20 odd thousand to fund all their public services.

I think that particular nugget was my all-time favourite.

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Making a gift to a commercial business to cover staff wages cannot be described as being for the benefit of the community. The guidance couldn't be any clearer. 
Oh and someone should point out to Kenny Morrison that he too is wrong. A Community Benefit Society must be run for the wider interests of the community - not just the membership and some paid employees in a commercial business the BenComm owns some shares in. If that was the case then it would have been more fitting had SMiSA registered as a Co-Operative Society which it is not. 


I've never once said just. Indeed, if you look back you'll see I've mentioned the wider community and that you would prioritise various communities within that. The wider interests would be why SMISA has opened membership up to near enough anyone, made the recent food bank donation and enabled the local distribution of the Saint newspaper. Of course, not all Saint Mirren fans are from Paisley and that's a fairly wide community.
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This is what a community club does.

Renfrewshire's award-winning Street Stuff programme will entertain hundreds of young people this Christmas as a special activity camp takes place.

Football, dance, table tennis, photography and gaming are just some of the activities on offer from Monday 26 December to Tuesday 3 January at the Paisley 2021 Stadium.

St Mirren legend Tony Fitzpatrick will be showcasing the second book in his Babakoochi Bear series on Wednesday 28 December- as part of a festive party featuring a DJ and talent show which will see 150 young people have a Christmas meal in the St Mirren hospitality suite..

Youngsters in attendance will receive a free meal as part of each session of the programme ensuring they learn the importance of exercise and healthy eating.

The full list of activities on the Christmas programme can be found here.

Activities are free to attend and places will be assigned on a first-come, first-served basis. Those who sign up and take part could be in with a chance of winning free prizes such as an iPad Mini, signed St Mirren jerseys, signed footballs and more!

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