The Beautiful Game - The Beginning of the End

[Stuart Dickson]

I'd imagine that the St Mirren board may well be hoping to rent the stadium out to the Rangers Colts side - just as the club did in 1999/00  Not that I'd support the idea of Colts playing senior football, but I'm being pragmatic. I think a number of club boards in the lower divisions would be fairly happy to entertain this as even if it meant away attendances of a couple of hundred thats much more than most clubs at that level bring to games with them anyway. I can't see them managing to sell it to many Championship and First Division clubs though, it's going to have little positive effect for them especially since it may well mean that Rangers and Celtic would be less likely to loan out players to clubs at those levels. 

The rest of the article seems a right mixed bag. I'd love it if football clubs were keen to encourage their players to take part in other sports as well as football. It's something I was involved in an encouraged at a local level here. We had Motherwell AC coaches at a number of our training sessions working on sprint training and technique and we could see immediate and obvious benefits. Other sides at Wishaw, including the one my son plays for now go to a kick boxing club once a week which has helped them massively particularly in the transition to amateur football. Theres loads of ways in which other sports can be used to get lessons across whilst also increasing participation and excersize. In reality though most clubs - particularly at Pro Youth level - are scared that letting their kids participate in other sports might see them lose them. 

More nutritional education is great, so long as it's done correctly but the SFA performance officer is going to have one hell of a job trying to sell to young kids the idea that they should be eating chicken pasta rather than Chicken Nuggets, and celery sticks instead of bars of chocolate. Parents have influence and control of course but even in school dinners kids are most likely to go for the unhealthy choice on the menu if it's available. 

And the idea of measuring the fat levels in kids aged 10 and 11 is just ridiculous. 

[St.Ricky]

2 hours ago, pozbaird said:

The solution, as we are now over thirty years down the total domination road is highly unlikely to result from a combined effort to create a strong league rather than just pander to two already huge clubs. So, looking at an NFL style situation, or even taking elements of the NFL and adapting them to our market will not happen. The only way a solution (of sorts) will happen is if the Sevco implode like their old incarnation, and this time, the authorities act properly. Another way would be for them to actually get an invite to pastures new. Another equally unlikely way would be for some clinically insane Arab oil sheik or Russian oligarch to bizarrely decide to pump zillions into a non-ugly sister club and take them on. Or finally... SMiSA members decide to save up their £2 a month, every month, and in one hundred years time, under the guidance of an unremittingly enthusiastic descendent of Tony Fitzpatrick, we crack into the fund and fcuk the Old Firm right up the ersepiece'.

What I do know is that allowing two already huge clubs to field colt teams in our league system only acts to help the two disproportionally strong clubs to become even stronger.

If this is all the SFAs new sexist, racist homophobe has in his locker then why not let Neil Doncaster do Mackay's job too.

So..that's a no then.

We can't go back so we have to start where we are.

I  would wave ta ta to both of the OF and wish them all they could wish for in their New League.

That let's us start again with a chance to tailor things for the 21st Century.

Two Leagues of 14_16.

Must be full time. 

Play on Friday Evenings. 

Play in the summer. 

5 points for a win.

Allow up to 5 subs.

3 points for a score draw.

1 Point for a nil..nil draw.

Possibly even bonus point for scoring 3 or more goals in a game.

Just a few thoughts.

And...I like the idea of the draft system. 

[Stuart Dickson]

38 minutes ago, Loyal Supporter said:

Good lad agreed 100% I don't mind who beats any of them as long as they lose . Wouldn't it be great if we could have a full stadium EVERY home game ? Who cares what League we are in . The Paisley public need to be more interested in coming to home games . Living in Paisley and attending Parkhead and Ibrox !!!!!!!!! These people should be ashamed of themselves . They have a fantastic stadium on their doorstep AND Jack Ross has us playing good attractive football so no excuses for these people . I'm quite certain if local MP's ( who are thankfully all true Saints Fans ) put up a motion that Council Tax was increased to any person from Paisley holding a season ticket for Parkhead or Ibrox it would get a lot of support ( locally ) .  It would also be good if The Paisley Express could print the names of all people in The a Town who actually own season tickets for The Old Firm ! All fantasy stuff but it would be BRILLIANT,

Aw right. So it's the responsibility of the Paisley public to turn up and watch St Mirren, and not the responsibility of St Mirren to give them a reason to want to part with £20 to watch shite football in the first place? 

Honestly the attitude of football fans is utterly bizarre. Football clubs are going to have to go out there and prove to the people of Paisley and beyond that they deserve their support. It doesn't work the other way round. Football clubs will need to get their fingers out and do some decent work around the local community for a change.

[Stuart Dickson]

4 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

So..that's a no then.

We can't go back so we have to start where we are.

I  would wave ta ta to both of the OF and wish them all they could wish for in their New League.

That let's us start again with a chance to tailor things for the 21st Century.

Two Leagues of 14_16.

Must be full time. 

Play on Friday Evenings. 

Play in the summer. 

5 points for a win.

Allow up to 5 subs.

3 points for a score draw.

1 Point for a nil..nil draw.

Possibly even bonus point for scoring 3 or more goals in a game.

Just a few thoughts.

And...I like the idea of the draft system. 

Loads of issues with this - but the full time one - why? 

What we are seeing right now is that professional football is unsustainable at many senior clubs never mind full time football. Clubs like St Mirren and Dundee have already fallen foul of the HMRC rules on minimum hourly rates of pay. Surely the sport needs to find a level where what it does is sustainable. Remember Welsh and Irish league football is semi pro - Dundalk on crowds smaller that those at St Mirren can get through to the Europa League sections and can win matches against more salubrious opposition. And Republic of Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland all made the Euro Championships, and have a decent track record of supplying the English leagues with good quality high profile talent over the last 20 years, while Scotland has fallen away. 

We need to stop pretending our game is something it's not. Outside of Celtic I doubt any of the top Scottish sides could live in either of the top two tiers of English Football yet our clubs like to dream that they should be getting far bigger gates and a much larger slice of the TV money pie. It's bollocks and a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss. 

[St.Ricky]

41 minutes ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Loads of issues with this - but the full time one - why? 

What we are seeing right now is that professional football is unsustainable at many senior clubs never mind full time football. Clubs like St Mirren and Dundee have already fallen foul of the HMRC rules on minimum hourly rates of pay. Surely the sport needs to find a level where what it does is sustainable. Remember Welsh and Irish league football is semi pro - Dundalk on crowds smaller that those at St Mirren can get through to the Europa League sections and can win matches against more salubrious opposition. And Republic of Ireland, Wales and Northern Ireland all made the Euro Championships, and have a decent track record of supplying the English leagues with good quality high profile talent over the last 20 years, while Scotland has fallen away. 

We need to stop pretending our game is something it's not. Outside of Celtic I doubt any of the top Scottish sides could live in either of the top two tiers of English Football yet our clubs like to dream that they should be getting far bigger gates and a much larger slice of the TV money pie. It's bollocks and a bit of realism wouldn't go amiss. 

Stuart.

I take your point.

When Ferguson was at Saints we didn't have every player on full time contracts and we played OK.

I get the cut the cloth to suit argument as well. The other arguments centre on how to create excitement and competiton and attract bigger crowds and TV money.

How would you do this?

 

[Stuart Dickson]

3 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Stuart.

I take your point.

When Ferguson was at Saints we didn't have every player on full time contracts and we played OK.

I get the cut the cloth to suit argument as well. The other arguments centre on how to create excitement and competiton and attract bigger crowds and TV money.

How would you do this?

 

You get bigger crowds by engaging your local community. And you get more TV money if the quality of football on offer is of a high standard. Improving the matchday experience is vital and if you do the rest will follow. 

We need to work far more efficiently to find and develop talent. The academy and elite systems have been woefully inefficient and utterly wasteful both in terms of resources and in terms of money. We need a much smarter system that develops partnerships between community groups and senior football clubs, shares resources and where more money can be put into grassroots football, coach education and into facilities to encourage greater participation. And we need to stop the nonsense of sending 11 and 12 year olds off on a trip from Paisley to Dingwall, Inverness or Aberdeen on a weekend to play a football match. Apart from it being a massive pain in the arse for their parent, it's bound to affect school work, and it's certainly going to have a negative effect on the boys lifestyle as he gives up spending time hanging out with his friends, for an 8 hour return trip for a game of football. 

Tommy Boyle - a controversial character in athletics who coached Tom McKean and Yvonne Murray to Olympic and Commonwealth medals - once explained to me how you develop star athletes. He said the important thing was to get huge numbers of people participating at your club. He said those with talent will eventually shine through and you can focus on them. You'll need money to send them to warm weather camps, to overseas competition or for specialist coaching - that money comes from the large number of participants paying their dues. He said if you do it the other way and recruit just 5 athletes that you think have potential and talent at the age of 8 or 10 what will happen is that one of those kids will move away from the area cause their parents have a new job. One will suffer illness or injury and find their development hampered as a result. One will not develop physically as you expected. One will decide that they hate athletics and would rather enjoy their weekends with their mates. And the last one, who you are now pinning all your hopes on, quickly finds that athletics is going to be too expensive for them to compete in, and your club has no way of helping them meet those costs because you don't have anyone paying dues. For some reason - probably because those creating reports and blueprints were more interested in their own job stability and creating new job prospects for themselves - Scottish Football went down the elite road. 

[shull]

Stranraer & Alloa  Cnuts  already sniffing the Sectarian Pound.

And no, the Colts cannae start in any League, never mind the Lowland League.

BOTH CLUBS AND THEIR COLTS CAN F*CK OFF.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/rangers-celtic-colts-sides-should-9478883

[St.Ricky]

I am not keen on the Colts Plan. I think it opens the door for the OF to keep a footprint in the domestic game if or perhaps when they leave. I can see how this would appeal to the SFA.

I agree that community building and mass involvement are the way to go but am sure you agree these will take time. 

Beyond that, I stick with my other suggestions.

Summer football.

Friday Evening Football 

5 Points for a win

3 points for a score draw

Bonus points for goals.

TV money increase as we play outside the main UK ...England period 

[Dirty Sanchez]

3 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Aw right. So it's the responsibility of the Paisley public to turn up and watch St Mirren, and not the responsibility of St Mirren to give them a reason to want to part with £20 to watch shite football in the first place? 

I always regard this as the main reason Scottish football is where it is. The focus of those who instigated the disastrous SPL era was greed and short term gain for the few, many of whom ended up in administration or bust anyway, trying to play at being big time in a small time market.

If the primary focus had instead been on the long term view of trying to create a league that people (and TV companies) might actually want to pay to watch, we'd surely be in better shape now? 

Create an interesting product and the rest will follow. Surely a better approach than ringfencing all the money for the top division, then taking that cash and ringfencing most of it for the top two in the top division. Then pishing it all away on shite.

I'm personally bored out of my nut with the Scottish game. I only watch Saints because I got roped in at an early age and feel invested in it.  The only other fixtures in the calendar that I'm remotely interested in are those whose results affect St Mirren.

[Stuart Dickson]

1 hour ago, Dirty Sanchez said:

I always regard this as the main reason Scottish football is where it is. The focus of those who instigated the disastrous SPL era was greed and short term gain for the few, many of whom ended up in administration or bust anyway, trying to play at being big time in a small time market.

If the primary focus had instead been on the long term view of trying to create a league that people (and TV companies) might actually want to pay to watch, we'd surely be in better shape now? 

Create an interesting product and the rest will follow. Surely a better approach than ringfencing all the money for the top division, then taking that cash and ringfencing most of it for the top two in the top division. Then pishing it all away on shite.

I'm personally bored out of my nut with the Scottish game. I only watch Saints because I got roped in at an early age and feel invested in it.  The only other fixtures in the calendar that I'm remotely interested in are those whose results affect St Mirren.

What roped you in? Was it the way the league was set up? Was it an entertaining product? Or was it a parent or family member telling you this was a cause to get behind? Or were you like me, you went along for some spurious reason, saw a club you liked the look of and backed it? 

I'm not at all in disagreement with what you'e said. Fans have been completely overlooked as clubs rush and gush for their share of TV money and the dominance of Celtic in particular in recent years makes the game dull as hell for those of us who follow league tables. But for a kid coming to a game for the first time, I don't think the league set up matters to them. It's the match experience. And St Mirren really don't offer much at all to keep new fans coming back. 

 

 

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

11 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

Aw right. So it's the responsibility of the Paisley public to turn up and watch St Mirren, and not the responsibility of St Mirren to give them a reason to want to part with £20 to watch shite football in the first place? 

Honestly the attitude of football fans is utterly bizarre. Football clubs are going to have to go out there and prove to the people of Paisley and beyond that they deserve their support. It doesn't work the other way round. Football clubs will need to get their fingers out and do some decent work around the local community for a change.

This must be a first for you Stuart. ( I know this person  ) ( I was involved )  ( When I ran the running club ) ( when I ran the youth club ) ( when I was on the committee) Though have to give credit when its due as sometimes you use ( we did this ) (we ran it this way ) ( we gave the community an orgasam )( we get the function suite for nothing ) Im sure Ruth will contact Mrs May to put you forward for a nighthood. However maybe the many lies you have been cought out with will stop the nighthood. Keep up the good work ! 

[Bud the Baker]

The Challenge Cup experiment earlier this season wasn't a success for the Colt teams either on the park or in attendances so I don't see what benefit this will be to Scottish football in general. I'm against it, unless we bleed the OF financially and even then I think I'm against it.

[bazil85]

I have to say it’s good to see a topic that unites St Mirren fans and we can all (well mostly) agree that it is a terrible idea that will only benefit Celtic and Rangers.

My thoughts on the matter are that I don’t see it going through at all.  If even half of the teams in the lower three divisions have the same thoughts of us the clubs would very much struggle to vote it through.  Surely they would be going with their fans? Would also say SPFL clubs fans outside the Glasgow Derby teams probably share our opinion and with Hearts and Motherwell being fan owned, more or less surely they would have to vote on how the team should cast their single votes? If it doesn’t get 11 yes votes in the first round it’s a non-starter. 

The second part of the vote with the lower league clubs I think you’d be hard pushed to get any Championship or higher league 1 club voting for this.  No benefit to them with exception of maybe a stadium deal for Morton and maybe ourselves with Rangers.  (Still would vote no if it went out to the fans which I’m pretty sure it would have to)

My question is why are the SFA pushing this? It seems terribly unpopular and doomed to fail.  It’s the 12-12-18 and Rangers parachute debate all over again.  These morons should not have jobs in the SFA.  Why have they not been voted out, surely clubs have the power to remove them? They have no idea how to improve Scottish football and that’s clearly been shown over their tenure in charge.

My last point (after saying all of the above) just to play devil’s advocate is there any circumstance where you’d be happy for St Mirren to vote yes for this? Personally the only situation which would change my mind is if there was an agreement to expand the top league.  A 16 or 18/ 20 team top flight is the only thing that would potentially change my mind on this subject.  

[pozbaird]

25 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

My question is why are the SFA pushing this?

 

 

...because all they care about is sooking the Old Firm boaby.

[Dalrybud]

There is no upside to this plan. All simply window dressing to deflect from the main objective of getting OF colt teams into the league set up.

Interesting that this stupid idea keeps surfacing when we have OF representation on the SFA Board.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

In the press today Rangers manager is against such a move. Calling for a debate on the matter that it should not be pushed through.  

Edited December 19, 2016 by Isle Of Bute Saint

[irvine_buddie]

This almost seems like a bam up that they are ironically calling this "Project Brave" when the SFA are rolling over and letting every other club in Scotland get f**ked over by the Gruesome Twosome as usual.

[bazil85]

eight team elite development league + old firm colt teams.  32 disadvantaged clubs, would be turkeys voting for Christmas.  If St Mirren backed this fan ownership direct debit members would nose dive.  

[antrin]

2 hours ago, bazil85 said:

I have to say it’s good to see a topic that unites St Mirren fans and we can all (well mostly) agree that it is a terrible idea that will only benefit Celtic and SEVCO.

 

My thoughts on the matter are that I don’t see it going through at all.  If even half of the teams in the lower three divisions have the same thoughts of us the clubs would very much struggle to vote it through.  Surely they would be going with their fans? Would also say SPFL clubs fans outside the Glasgow Derby teams probably share our opinion and with Hearts and Motherwell being fan owned, more or less surely they would have to vote on how the team should cast their single votes? If it doesn’t get 11 yes votes in the first round it’s a non-starter. 

 

The second part of the vote with the lower league clubs I think you’d be hard pushed to get any Championship or higher league 1 club voting for this.  No benefit to them with exception of maybe a stadium deal for Morton and maybe ourselves with SEVCO.  (Still would vote no if it went out to the fans which I’m pretty sure it would have to)

 

My question is why are the SFA pushing this? It seems terribly unpopular and doomed to fail.  It’s the 12-12-18 and SEVCO parachute debate all over again.  These morons should not have jobs in the SFA.  Why have they not been voted out, surely clubs have the power to remove them? They have no idea how to improve Scottish football and that’s clearly been shown over their tenure in charge.

 

My last point (after saying all of the above) just to play devil’s advocate is there any circumstance where you’d be happy for St Mirren to vote yes for this? Personally the only situation which would change my mind is if there was an agreement to expand the top league.  A 16 or 18/ 20 team top flight is the only thing that would potentially change my mind on this subject.  

 

Agree with most of your post - except for the bits I fixed for you.  

Edited December 19, 2016 by antrin

[bazil85]

Agree with most of your post - except for the bits I fixed for you.   [emoji4]

Haha good point well made!

[St.Ricky]

Playing Devils Advocate - If it doesnt happen and C and R do leave the league then their buying power, number of away fans visiting Scottish Grounds etc would dissappear. If it does happen then sure, they get the best of both worlds - a bigger money pot but still have their Scottish League involvement and yes, the SFA and League continue to make money from their involvement. Call me cynical if you like.

[Bud the Baker]

7 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Playing Devils Advocate - If it doesnt happen and C and R do leave the league then their buying power, number of away fans visiting Scottish Grounds etc would dissappear. If it does happen then sure, they get the best of both worlds - a bigger money pot but still have their Scottish League involvement and yes, the SFA and League continue to make money from their involvement. Call me cynical if you like.

Devil's Idiot more like - the OF are going nowhere.

[St.Ricky]

Just now, Bud the Baker said:

Devil's Idiot more like - the OF are going nowhere.

If you say so Bud.

Then again the money men elsewhere might just say yes.

[bazil85]

Playing Devils Advocate - If it doesnt happen and C and R do leave the league then their buying power, number of away fans visiting Scottish Grounds etc would dissappear. If it does happen then sure, they get the best of both worlds - a bigger money pot but still have their Scottish League involvement and yes, the SFA and League continue to make money from their involvement. Call me cynical if you like.

To be honest best case scenario for me would be them Leaving. A lot of people say it would be the death of Scottish football and we need their Tv money and blah blah blah. We would adapt to life without them and actually have a competitive top flight. Our league is on level with Irish or Welsh leagues (maybe slightly bigger) just with a wee bit more interest because of Old firm.

They're not needed in this league, drag all the other clubs down.

[shull]

4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

 

To be honest best case scenario for me would be them Leaving. A lot of people say it would be the death of Scottish football and we need their Tv money and blah blah blah. We would adapt to life without them and actually have a competitive top flight. Our league is on level with Irish or Welsh leagues (maybe slightly bigger) just with a wee bit more interest because of Old firm.

They're not needed in this league, drag all the other clubs down.

 

Great post Bazzy. 

My wisdom seems to be rubbing off on you. 

Keep it up Sir.