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Heart Of The Community?


Stuart Dickson

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6 minutes ago, TsuMirren said:

I must admit that the Dons Trust, going by their site, doesn't seem to know what it is. They were an IPS, but those are now Registered Societies operating as Community or Co-operative societies in the same way SMISA moved across under the new Act. Their constitution mentions Community, just as SMISA's does.

Maybe you could go on their forum and enquire as to why their constitution is pre-2014 and why they still refer to themselves as an IPS.

Yes maybe I could but the point is you aren't comparing like with like. The Dons Trust doesn't have an asset lock in place, and just because it mentions the Community in their constitution doesn't make it a Community Benefit Society. And regardless to all of that - it's quite clear that the "We Are Wimbledon Fund" - the fund you refer to as being for the hire of football players - is run separately from the Dons Trust. 

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The Fund has been created, under the umbrella of The Dons Trust – the owners of AFC Wimbledon – to provide supporters with a straightforward way to directly increase the club’s playing budget. So your money is safe, and also comes with a return; the Trust will receive shares in return for the investment, further reinforcing ownership by the supporters.

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5 minutes ago, TsuMirren said:

The Fund has been created, under the umbrella of The Dons Trust – the owners of AFC Wimbledon – to provide supporters with a straightforward way to directly increase the club’s playing budget. So your money is safe, and also comes with a return; the Trust will receive shares in return for the investment, further reinforcing ownership by the supporters.

So not the Dons Trust - an umbrella of the Dons Trust. This sounds very like the SEN conference class I attended where it talked about a  SEN owning multiple Ltd companies which could each be liquidated without affecting the parent SEN if they weren't successful. Regardless anyway Kenny, this still isn't in any way similar to what SMiSA have done. Even in your short quote you can see that the money their fans donate is in exchange for equity in the club. If SMiSA had done the same I could see that as being more palatable. But for a Community Benefit Society to donate £9k of it's assets to a £multi million business as a gift - that's completely different. 

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5 hours ago, TsuMirren said:

 


From my reading, which fair enough may lack understanding, it would appear the CIC asset lock differs from a Registered Society asset lock.

Registered Society definition is "An asset lock is a constitutional device that prevents the distribution of residual assets to members. The purpose of an asset lock is to ensure that the public benefit or community benefit of any retained surplus or residual value is cannot be appropriated for private benefit of members." and appears to be regarding what happens should SMISA be coming to an end.

CIC definition is "The Asset Lock is designed to ensure that the assets of the CIC (including any profits or other surpluses generated by its activities) are used for the benefit of the community." and appears to be ongoing.

Registered Societies being run as a CBS can specify a defined community, such as a locality. In serving the needs of any defined community the society should not inhibit the benefit to the community at large. I certainly don't feel we're inhibiting the community at large. Of course, the £2 a month is a side fund and not strictly part of the SMISA monthly membership fee although it is collected at the same time. That was clear at the start, is easy to find detail on and is to me no different to AFC Wimbledon providing money towards the playing budget via their fund.

 

This is the definition that is important from SMISA RULES: (in particular 8.1.6 onwards which defines the transfer of assets outwith the society, please note i believe all assets are subject to the asset lock, not just £10 of the £12 per month)

 

ASSET LOCK 8. Restriction on use: Pursuant to regulations made under section 1 of the Co-operatives and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014: All of the society's assets are subject to a restriction on their use. 8.1 The society must not use or deal with its assets except- 8.1.1 where the use or dealing is, directly or indirectly, for the purpose that is for the benefit of the community; 8.1.2 to pay a member of the society the value of his withdrawable share capital or interest on such capital; 8.1.3 to make a payment pursuant under section 36 (payments in respect of persons lacking capacity) 37 (nomination by members of entitlement to property in society on member’s death), 40 (death of a member: distribution of property not exceeding £5,000) of the Co-operative and Community Benefit Societies Act 2014; 8.1.4 to make a payment in accordance with the Rules of the society to trustees of the property of bankrupt members or, in Scotland, members whose estate has been sequestrated; 8.1.5 where the society is to be dissolved or wound up, to pay its creditors; or 8.1.6 to transfer its assets to one or more of the following: 8.1.6.1 a prescribed community benefit society whose assets have been made subject to a restriction on use and which will apply that restriction to any assets so transferred; 8.1.6.2 a community interest company; 8.1.6.3 a registered social landlord which has a restriction on the use of its assets which is equivalent to a restriction on use and which will apply that restriction to any assets so transferred; 8.1.6.4 a charity (including a community benefit society that is a charity); or 8.1.6.5 a body, established in Northern Ireland or a State other than the United Kingdom, that is equivalent to any of those persons. 8.2 Any expression used in this Rule which is defined for the purposes of regulations made under section 1 of the 2014 Act shall have the meaning given by those regulations.]

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15 hours ago, Stuart Dickson said:

 


According to the constitution I'd have 6 months to raise grievance.

 

Yes you are correct however your membership fee is annual and is £1 of any sum you pay to them, so you are actually probably still a member unless you have actually resigned in writing.

Simply not paying your monthly fee only meams your membership will not renew in 1 years time.

This was one of my concerns about the system as it muddies the waters about SMISA AGMs as all members have a vote which is not the same as all contributors to BuytheBuds, by the very nature of the way it is set up there are more members of SMISA than there are of monthly subscribers to BUYtheBuds as one membership is taken annually and one is taken monthly

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The £2 a month is the SMISA subscription. It's not a side fund. Read the sign up info you can't be part of buy the buddies without being a member of SMISA. They can do what they (members) want with the subscription fee just like they did when they only had 200 members.

It's the £2 month that was gifted to the playing budget and it will be the £2 month pot that will go to what ever option is voted for

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13 hours ago, civilsaint said:

Slightly disappointing that a SMISA rep has chosen not to engage in discussion as yet, particularly in the SMISA section of the forum.

Engagement is how you increase subscription (if that's what they want).

Perhaps you should try talking to SMiSA rather than moaning about it on an unofficial club forum 

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6 minutes ago, BaldyOzBud said:

Perhaps you should try talking to SMiSA rather than moaning about it on an unofficial club forum 

 

Successful community groups usually achieve such success by going on the charm offensive and engaging at every opportunity. If answering questions in a dedicated section of the primary social media platform of the club is too much effort, then I don't hold much hope. 

Hopefully your response isn't reflective of SMISA though.

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7 minutes ago, civilsaint said:

 

Successful community groups usually achieve such success by going on the charm offensive and engaging at every opportunity. If answering questions in a dedicated section of the primary social media platform of the club is too much effort, then I don't hold much hope. 

Hopefully your response isn't reflective of SMISA though.

My only connection to SMiSA is as member, nothing that I post has anything to do with the governance of the organization, nor do I have influence other than my one in 1300(ish) vote on any particular matter; Any queries I have had concerning fan ownership I have forwarded  to the SMiSA website and have always received a reply  within 24 hours.

I would suggest to you that you do the same.

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1 hour ago, civilsaint said:

 

Successful community groups usually achieve such success by going on the charm offensive and engaging at every opportunity. If answering questions in a dedicated section of the primary social media platform of the club is too much effort, then I don't hold much hope. 

Hopefully your response isn't reflective of SMISA though.

Quit with the entitlement bud and just phone or email them directly.

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2 hours ago, BaldyOzBud said:

My only connection to SMiSA is as member, nothing that I post has anything to do with the governance of the organization, nor do I have influence other than my one in 1300(ish) vote on any particular matter; Any queries I have had concerning fan ownership I have forwarded  to the SMiSA website and have always received a reply  within 24 hours.

I would suggest to you that you do the same.

 

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Quit with the entitlement bud and just phone or email them directly.

 

Like I said, not the type of attitude that is conducive to maximising membership (and thus maximising funds). Just another example of my concern over fan ownership.  

There's a captive audience capable of being persuaded to join, surely this should be exploited rather than expecting people to approach SMISA.

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5 minutes ago, civilsaint said:

 

 

Like I said, not the type of attitude that is conducive to maximising membership (and thus maximising funds). Just another example of my concern over fan ownership.  

There's a captive audience capable of being persuaded to join, surely this should be exploited rather than expecting people to approach SMISA.

If it was coming from SMISA board members then I'd agree.

But from two random club supporters on an internet, one of whom might not even be a SMISA member................

Have to agree with the latter poster. If you've got concerns then surely the adult approach would be to contact SMISA directly or isn't that public enough for you?

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10 minutes ago, FTOF said:

If it was coming from SMISA board members then I'd agree.

But from two random club supporters on an internet, one of whom might not even be a SMISA member................

Have to agree with the latter poster. If you've got concerns then surely the adult approach would be to contact SMISA directly or isn't that public enough for you?

It isn't about being "adult" or not. I find it a bit concerning that point point is being missed.

Put simply, if I don't 'contact SMISA directly' it makes no difference to me. Where as, if SMISA choose not to engage on the primary social media platform, they risk missing out on valuable funds (£1,400 per sign up). The only people with anything to lose are SMISA.

This is clearly a wider point than m original query, the same applies to every single person who has a query or who could be persuaded to part with their money. 

 

Edited by civilsaint
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25 minutes ago, FTOF said:

If it was coming from SMISA board members then I'd agree.

But from two random club supporters on an internet, one of whom might not even be a SMISA member................

Have to agree with the latter poster. If you've got concerns then surely the adult approach would be to contact SMISA directly or isn't that public enough for you?

Quote

SMiSA

Got a question or point to raise about the St.Mirren Independent Supporters Association ? This is the place to do it. SMiSA members and non-members all welcome. Also visit www.smisa.net for more SMiSA related information.

Nothing needs adding.

Edited by Kombibuddie
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While I do not agree to the tone the point is valid. The SMISA section is on this forum there is nothing that states there is no connection between the forum and SMISA. The fact the SMISA used this media format to convey information on the buyout I think it is a fair request or assumption that they could provide a response on this forum. Seems to me they are following the St Mirren way of communication as being selective

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7 hours ago, notabuddie said:

While I do not agree to the tone the point is valid. The SMISA section is on this forum there is nothing that states there is no connection between the forum and SMISA. The fact the SMISA used this media format to convey information on the buyout I think it is a fair request or assumption that they could provide a response on this forum. Seems to me they are following the St Mirren way of communication as being selective

What's your query, I will answer it if i can.

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On 18/01/2017 at 3:09 PM, notabuddie said:

While I do not agree to the tone the point is valid. The SMISA section is on this forum there is nothing that states there is no connection between the forum and SMISA. The fact the SMISA used this media format to convey information on the buyout I think it is a fair request or assumption that they could provide a response on this forum. Seems to me they are following the St Mirren way of communication as being selective

 

On 15/01/2017 at 2:07 PM, civilsaint said:

It isn't about being "adult" or not. I find it a bit concerning that point point is being missed.

Put simply, if I don't 'contact SMISA directly' it makes no difference to me. Where as, if SMISA choose not to engage on the primary social media platform, they risk missing out on valuable funds (£1,400 per sign up). The only people with anything to lose are SMISA.

This is clearly a wider point than m original query, the same applies to every single person who has a query or who could be persuaded to part with their money. 

 

Black & White Army is only one of several fans' groups social media outlets. There are other various official and unofficial Facebook and Twitter accounts. B&W Army may have lots of people signed up but in reality they only have a couple of hundred at most who regularly use the site. Out of the Buddies who sit around me in the Stadium and other friends I meet at half-time I am the only one who uses B&WArmy. Personally I think the SMiSA forum on B&WArmy is a reasonable place to discuss SMiSA related topics I do not think it is the mechanism for direct contact with SMiSA for any concerns or questions that anyone has. For that I believe that people should contact SMiSA direct  http://www.smisa.net/contact

That being said maybe SMiSA should make it clear how they want people to communicate with them. Their banner in the SMiSA forum states Got a question or point to raise about the St.Mirren Independent Supporters Association ?  . If they are offering such a service on this fans' forum then they should either address questions or remove their strap line.

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9 hours ago, Sonny said:

That being said maybe SMiSA should make it clear how they want people to communicate with them. Their banner in the SMiSA forum states Got a question or point to raise about the St.Mirren Independent Supporters Association ?  . If they are offering such a service on this fans' forum then they should either address questions or remove their strap line.

 

I have a fundamental problem with this. It can't be about how they want "people to communicate with them". For SMISA/fan ownership to work it must be the other way round. They should seek out queries and address them proactively if they want to convince people to join the revolution. If addressing queries on BAWA is too difficult, the baw's burst.

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I have a fundamental problem with this. It can't be about how they want "people to communicate with them". For SMISA/fan ownership to work it must be the other way round. They should seek out queries and address them proactively if they want to convince people to join the revolution. If addressing queries on BAWA is too difficult, the baw's burst.

They/we have sought out queries and many of those have been addressed proactively. Covering things on BWA isn't too difficult, it's just not feasible to answer every single question. Questions were being answered and then it suddenly became very time consuming.

{Slight edit}

To answer the opening post on this thread. The community that SMISA serves is the Saint Mirren support, which obviously SMISA has since it was put together. SMISA are absolutely at the heart of that community and are looking to work with the club to further that work. Alongside that, SMISA will look to consider the wider community. Various initiatives previously submitted for consideration in the £2 spend votes are currently being costed up or investigated. Any other sensible suggestions are welcomed and will be looked at.

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On a slightly different topic, one that maybe does not need it's own thread - the money loaned to the club, as a matter of good housekeeping and for financial management and prudence, does anybody know if a loan agreement was put in place with the club?

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On a slightly different topic, one that maybe does not need it's own thread - the money loaned to the club, as a matter of good housekeeping and for financial management and prudence, does anybody know if a loan agreement was put in place with the club?


For the USH? Yes, there is an agreement in place.
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