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Bid accepted for Kyle McAllister?


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9 minutes ago, buddygreat said:

I'm chucking it if we lose mallan and mcallister..its bleak..losing McLean to Aberdeen in the January window contributed to losing our spl status..we say we need to go with youth but anyone decent will be sold?..no ambition..we have become mediocre at best. Start losing the youth before they've spent any time in the first squad and we won't even be that..2nd division here we come...quite happily it would seem..

What is your expectation on McAllister then mate?

How would you play the current situation better?

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1 hour ago, saintargyll said:

beats me why any young player holding down a first team place would want to go somewhere else for more money to play for reserves....where is the ambition?

best option would of been to stay with saints till at least 21 then he could command an even better pay day whilst still being a youngster

there is no way he will be playing in their first team down south...

this shows a lack of ambition

and very badly advised

or maybe the club need the money

On the contrary, This shows huge ambition. The player is risking a lot to go to a bigger club where first team football is not guaranteed. You would need to show a huge amount of ambition to take on a job on that basis. He clearly want's to be a successful player who earns a decent level of money from the game. You can't hold him back from that and cite that he has no ambition!

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On the contrary, This shows huge ambition. The player is risking a lot to go to a bigger club where first team football is not guaranteed. You would need to show a huge amount of ambition to take on a job on that basis. He clearly want's to be a successful player who earns a decent level of money from the game. You can't hold him back from that and cite that he has no ambition!


Hmmmm, not sure it's like that regarding ambition. It's obvious he's not rubbish, so once he moves he's going to be around the same wage level and comfortable the rest of his career. He certainly doesn't appear to be one who'll bounce back North for example.
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36 minutes ago, div said:

 

New Players

Two deals very close to completion. One for a loan forward/winger from within the SPFL.

The other is coming from England. A 28 year old central midfielder. Not sure if he's a loan or permanent deal but assume former.

Firstly, thanks for the update. 

Secondly, you have to assume that these two players have been brought in on the basis that both McAllister and Mallan were leaving. This will leave us with decent competition for the midfield places (at last) but I'm also wondering what our best XI looks like.  I can't find room in the same team for Loy and Mallan, and both of these options leaves out Magennis, which seems harsh, and Quinn (assuming injury).

At least we have a meritocracy in midfield rather than just playing Hutto because he exists and we signed him :unsure:

Home (4-4-2):

Billy; Irvine, MacKenzie, Fjelde, Demetriou; New winger, Storie, McGinn, Morgan; Loy, Sutton.

Away (4-4-1-1):

Billy; Irvine, MacKenzie, Fjelde, Demetriou; New winger, Storie, McGinn, Morgan; Mallan; Sutton.

 

Scary curve ball (3-5-2): 

Billy; MacKenzie, Fjelde, Baird; Irvine, Demetriou (WBs); Storie, McGinn, Mallan; Loy, Sutton. (Aside from Irvine at WB, I quite like that. Obviously never seen Stelios play, but word is he likes to get forward, so it could work.) 


Either way, I can't believe how different the team is going to look from just a few weeks ago. :lol:

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1 minute ago, TsuMirren said:

 

 


Hmmmm, not sure it's like that regarding ambition. It's obvious he's not rubbish, so once he moves he's going to be around the same wage level and comfortable the rest of his career. He certainly doesn't appear to be one who'll bounce back North for example.

 

What I'm saying is that people with no ambition stay within their comfort zone. People with ambition will try a harder role when the chance arises as they want to step up a level and prove that they are better than what they have already done.

I think any player who looks for a move to a big club to hover around the fringes is taking a superb gamble that they will not be out of a job when their contract expires.

Personally I think if he had no ambition he would have signed the first contract extension he was offered, but no, he wanted to try and get a better deal just like people in all walks of life who show ambition.

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I'm chucking it if we lose mallan and mcallister..its bleak..losing McLean to Aberdeen in the January window contributed to losing our spl status..we say we need to go with youth but anyone decent will be sold?..no ambition..we have become mediocre at best. Start losing the youth before they've spent any time in the first squad and we won't even be that..2nd division here we come...quite happily it would seem..






Who has got more money ?? Well to turn this slightly, a rival bidder for a start.

My point is that historically over the years we seem to fail to realise and agree sound sale fees / valuations on players. Mcinnes himself admitted that getting McLean was "a steal "from us !!! We had by then of course gotten ourselves duly in the shit that we took conservatively £200k less than was realistic, but we had to keep the wolf from the door and sell thereby honouring a "gentleman's agreement" Great !?

It's growth and sell on for us, no question but who knows, let's see what transpires. Maybe the CEO and BoD will play a blinder and negotiate something significant for a superb young talented player.

Part of our clubs ambition must always be to entice a biding war for a significant talent. We don't appear to have succeeded in the past here.

Appreciate there are lots of underlying factors around this one but our sole most aim has to be to sell well, not cave as we tend to.

Still, it's reflective of where we are. We can but hope.

please sell now.
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What is your expectation on McAllister then mate?
How would you play the current situation better?

Div. I'm a lifelong supporter, like yourself and many others. The rhetoric coming out of the club and management, since winning the cup, has been one of adjusting our expectations, cutting our cloth, and going more with youth. If, and it's an if, if our youth barely get a run out before we let them go, what's the future?. A youth development that benefits other clubs but not our progress on the pitch?.
I don't know the answer. Is it their contracts? Is it agents? Is it the board? Is it ralston?..i don't know. In a declining industry that is competing with the fans of the future and their xboxes, watching entertaining football is paramount..not selling it off and watching the club fall...cause there is no doubt we are in decline
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13 minutes ago, buddygreat said:


Div. I'm a lifelong supporter, like yourself and many others. The rhetoric coming out of the club and management, since winning the cup, has been one of adjusting our expectations, cutting our cloth, and going more with youth. If, and it's an if, if our youth barely get a run out before we let them go, what's the future?. A youth development that benefits other clubs but not our progress on the pitch?.
I don't know the answer. Is it their contracts? Is it agents? Is it the board? Is it ralston?..i don't know. In a declining industry that is competing with the fans of the future and their xboxes, watching entertaining football is paramount..not selling it off and watching the club fall...cause there is no doubt we are in decline

Spot on bud. A few games in the first team and the young guys want away. Disappointing as we do like to think some of the team are playing for the jerseys - particularly the boys that come through the academy from a young age.  No doubt we will be slammed as deluded. Personally I think £200k is pretty decent in this case particularly if there is a sell on. Still doesn't make you feel great about being a Saints fan though.

Edited by magnus
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35 minutes ago, mcdowell76 said:

Erm, you appear to be missing the point.

Why use McCarthy & McArthur in your example?

Why not just simply use the names of the former St. Mirren players who are now Premiership and international regulars and have subsequently been sold for £ million?

If you can't actually name these players (essentially because they don't exist) then what exactly is your "perception" based on?

Not difficult to understand from my reply.

 

This really isn't difficult Captain / latest alias.... One last time... We have a player who could leave for nothing in the summer. The player has refused to sign new contracts and wants to leave. The player is not attracting the interest of clubs like Everton or West Ham, even Newcastle... who may think a million needs to be offered to secure this talented lad. With me so far? Good...

Now, personally I am resigned to situations like this, but across the pages of this forum, people seem to be voicing a view along the lines of 'we always sell our talent for peanuts while other clubs don't'. So, I posed the question is it the case that it isn't merely the McAllister sale causing grief for some folk, but rather, do they genuinely feel we always sell ourselves short whereas others are more savvy / stubborn / clued up - phrase that however you want. Still with me?

I phrased the possibility of a more deep-rooted discontent with the way St Mirren's BoD sell players over many years, by choosing two players who a Scottish 'wee club' did sell for the kind of cash that St Mirren would dearly love, by asking, had those million pound players been under the stewardship of the St Mirren BoD, not Hamilton's - do you think we'd just have papped them for 150k - 200k, while Accies clearly didn't. I'm not saying that St Mirren have million pound players, I'm asking if people think the issue is our BoD not doing as good a job as other BoDs. 

These mystery St Mirren stars now playing in the Premiership you are on about? What have these non-existent players got to do with anything? I'm posing a very simple question. Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or something else I don't quite understand.

I'll offer my opinion - I do believe that we haven't been as savvy as other clubs over the years. My view is that, like the kit deal and allowing JD to do it all, or allowing AWP to crack on and deal with the merchandising, or forming the Fan Council to do stuff for them, in many areas the old BoD took the path of least work involved for them. I do believe if they'd been in Accies shoes, they'd likely have taken the first offer that landed on their desk. You can agree or disagree with that, that's anyone's perogative, but try to stop being daft.

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6 minutes ago, buddygreat said:


Div. I'm a lifelong supporter, like yourself and many others. The rhetoric coming out of the club and management, since winning the cup, has been one of adjusting our expectations, cutting our cloth, and going more with youth. If, and it's an if, if our youth barely get a run out before we let them go, what's the future?. A youth development that benefits other clubs but not our progress on the pitch?.
I don't know the answer. Is it their contracts? Is it agents? Is it the board? Is it ralston?..i don't know. In a declining industry that is competing with the fans of the future and their xboxes, watching entertaining football is paramount..not selling it off and watching the club fall...cause there is no doubt we are in decline

It's a very tough one mate. The academy is the only real way a club like us has of generating good revenue outside of cup runs, commercial sponsorship and gate money.

Bosman screwed the transfer market right up and it's clubs like us that are paying the price.

We're also in a tailspin of our own. At the end of the day we're currently sitting bottom of the Championship, staring down both barrels at third tier football.

If we were mid table in the Premiership then I guess McAllister would have gone for more.

At the end of the day a club like Cardiff are valuing Johnny Hayes at £500K and he's a significantly better player right now than a still very raw Kyle McAllister.

I've no doubt Kyle will go on to be a superstar, same as John McGinn. If they do then we get the big money eventually. All a gamble.

Ryan Fraser left Aberdeen, a much bigger club than us, to sign for Bournemouth 4 years ago for £400K. It's all relative I suppose, I've no idea what clauses or add-ons they got.

Similar situation. Signed for Aberdeen in May 2010 at 16 on a 3 year deal. Rejected a contract extension in December 2012, so Aberdeen sold in January 2013 before he was able to walk way on a bosman.

 

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5 minutes ago, magnus said:

Spot on bud. A few first games in the fitst team and the young guys want away. Disappointing as we do like to think some of the team are playing for the jerseys - particularly the boys that come through the academy from a young age.  No doubt we will be slammed as deluded. Personally I think £200k is pretty decent in this case particularly if there is a sell on. Still doesn't make you feel great about being a Saints fan though.

Agreed. I think 200 k, plus add ons, plus a sell on, is a decent figure for someone who hasn't played a huge amount of games for us, and no longer wants to be here.

Unfortunately loyalty doesn't come in to it these days, especially with the wages on offer down south. 

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Spot on bud. A few games in the first team and the young guys want away. Disappointing as we do like to think some of the team are playing for the jerseys - particularly the boys that come through the academy from a young age.  No doubt we will be slammed as deluded. Personally I think £200k is pretty decent in this case particularly if there is a sell on. Still doesn't make you feel great about being a Saints fan though.


Yup, this just demonstrates what a difficult job JR has. Then you add fans expectations and where we are. He has my faith, trust and hope, what else is there.
Best we can do, hell the only thing to do is support whoever plays for us presently. Days of loyal dying for the jersey brigade types all long gone now. Different world.
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According to the PFA the average basic wage for a player in the Championship is £4k to £5K a week which is probably about 10 times more than we pay him at the moment. Kyle could spend 2 years at Derby and potentially earn £500,000 before he is 20. No wonder the guy wants to head down south.

And for anyone comparing McAllister to MaCarthy: McCarthy had played 100 first team games for the Accies who were an SPL Club when they sold him. McCarthy was also the Young Player of the Year in Scotland and had 3 years left on his contract. He was 19 with plenty of first team action in the top level. Now McAllister may well turn out to be as good as McCarthy but the situation surrounding their transfers are radically different. McCarthy was happy at Hamilton. Kyle wants away being one.

 

EDIT TO ADD: Looks like Barnsley are not meeting our valuation of Mallan so the BoD cannot be accused of accepting the first bid that comes along for a player. Hopefully he stays but I expected Kyle to move during this transfer window.

 

Edited by Sonny
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It's a very tough one mate. The academy is the only real way a club like us has of generating good revenue outside of cup runs, commercial sponsorship and gate money.
Bosman screwed the transfer market right up and it's clubs like us that are paying the price.
We're also in a tailspin of our own. At the end of the day we're currently sitting bottom of the Championship, staring down both barrels at third tier football.
If we were mid table in the Premiership then I guess McAllister would have gone for more.
At the end of the day a club like Cardiff are valuing Johnny Hayes at £500K and he's a significantly better player right now than a still very raw Kyle McAllister.
I've no doubt Kyle will go on to be a superstar, same as John McGinn. If they do then we get the big money eventually. All a gamble.
Ryan Fraser left Aberdeen, a much bigger club than us, to sign for Bournemouth 4 years ago for £400K. It's all relative I suppose, I've no idea what clauses or add-ons they got.
Similar situation. Signed for Aberdeen in May 2010 at 16 on a 3 year deal. Rejected a contract extension in December 2012, so Aberdeen sold in January 2013 before he was able to walk way on a bosman.
 

It is difficult. My son and I look forward to the morgans, magennises, mallan and mcallister..take those boys out and, well, not very entertaining. Sell them, and we risk relegation. Get relegated and it's more difficult to attract the youth when they have options. The further we fall, the less we'll be happy to accept in future..downward spiral..
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1 hour ago, div said:

I've spoken to a few people this morning. So here's an update on where I think we are at.

McAllister

As I said previously, the player wants to go. His agent want him to go. He won't sign a new deal and he has 12 months of his contract left. He will be free to sign a pre-contract with 6 months of his deal remaining which would be this summer. If that happened he would walk away next January for a development fee alone, no add-ons, no sell-on.

The player signed a 3 year deal on his 16th birthday in January 2015. This is the maximum allowed under SFA rules. The club tried to register the contract to summer 2018 but the SFA made them change it as it was noted that would be a 3.5 year contract.

Player has been offered new terms, doesn't want to sign.

As such we either keep an unhappy player for the rest of the season, risk being a third tier club anyway and lose the lad for next to nothing.

Or we try and cash in as much as we can now.

Plenty of clubs interested but Derby are front runners. Club wanted him back on loan as part of the deal but Derby not having that. I don't know the actual numbers involved but it's more than double what we got for McGinn, and with plenty of add-ons and a sell on clause.

Other clubs coming in might push the price up, and one of them might be more receptive to a loan back. We're in the final stages in any case with this one. The player is going, it's just a matter of when not if.

Mallan

As things stand currently the deal to sell Mallan is OFF. Barnsley won't meet our valuation currently so as things stand he is staying put. That might change of course but it is in no way linked to the McAllister deal. His contract situation is different of course as he does have 18 months left so we are really in no need to sell right now unless the deal is too good to turn down. 

New Players

Two deals very close to completion. One for a loan forward/winger from within the SPFL. He is 21 so we can get him in within the loan rules. We're allowed 4 players on loan from within the SPFL. Only one can be over 21 (Rory Loy in our case) and you can only have two from any one club outside your own division. The over 21 rule is why you won't see Keith Watson re-joining on loan for example, he's too old.

The other is coming from England. A 28 year old central midfielder. Not sure if he's a loan or permanent deal but assume former.

"Loan" signings from outside your own association do not count as actual loans as these are acutally temporary transfers requiring international clearance. This is sometimes why clubs down South are reluctant to loan players to Scotland as they are unable to then recall them until the temporary transfer expires.

The manager is also looking at a few other players who would come in once the McAllister deal is finalised.

 

That's where we are right now.

Thanks for the update Div or ??????.

 

1 hour ago, div said:

I've spoken to a few people this morning. So here's an update on where I think we are at.

McAllister

As I said previously, the player wants to go. His agent want him to go. He won't sign a new deal and he has 12 months of his contract left. He will be free to sign a pre-contract with 6 months of his deal remaining which would be this summer. If that happened he would walk away next January for a development fee alone, no add-ons, no sell-on.

The player signed a 3 year deal on his 16th birthday in January 2015. This is the maximum allowed under SFA rules. The club tried to register the contract to summer 2018 but the SFA made them change it as it was noted that would be a 3.5 year contract.

Player has been offered new terms, doesn't want to sign.

As such we either keep an unhappy player for the rest of the season, risk being a third tier club anyway and lose the lad for next to nothing.

Or we try and cash in as much as we can now.

Plenty of clubs interested but Derby are front runners. Club wanted him back on loan as part of the deal but Derby not having that. I don't know the actual numbers involved but it's more than double what we got for McGinn, and with plenty of add-ons and a sell on clause.

Other clubs coming in might push the price up, and one of them might be more receptive to a loan back. We're in the final stages in any case with this one. The player is going, it's just a matter of when not if.

Mallan

As things stand currently the deal to sell Mallan is OFF. Barnsley won't meet our valuation currently so as things stand he is staying put. That might change of course but it is in no way linked to the McAllister deal. His contract situation is different of course as he does have 18 months left so we are really in no need to sell right now unless the deal is too good to turn down. 

New Players

Two deals very close to completion. One for a loan forward/winger from within the SPFL. He is 21 so we can get him in within the loan rules. We're allowed 4 players on loan from within the SPFL. Only one can be over 21 (Rory Loy in our case) and you can only have two from any one club outside your own division. The over 21 rule is why you won't see Keith Watson re-joining on loan for example, he's too old.

The other is coming from England. A 28 year old central midfielder. Not sure if he's a loan or permanent deal but assume former.

"Loan" signings from outside your own association do not count as actual loans as these are acutally temporary transfers requiring international clearance. This is sometimes why clubs down South are reluctant to loan players to Scotland as they are unable to then recall them until the temporary transfer expires.

The manager is also looking at a few other players who would come in once the McAllister deal is finalised.

 

That's where we are right now.

Thanks for the update whoever you are.

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My guess on add-ons will be further payments linked to eg. number of 1st team starts with new club, international appearances etc. To use the modern vernacular many of us salary slaves have to work to, Key Performance Indicators

 

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37 minutes ago, pozbaird said:

 

This really isn't difficult Captain / latest alias.... One last time... We have a player who could leave for nothing in the summer. The player has refused to sign new contracts and wants to leave. The player is not attracting the interest of clubs like Everton or West Ham, even Newcastle... who may think a million needs to be offered to secure this talented lad. With me so far? Good...

Now, personally I am resigned to situations like this, but across the pages of this forum, people seem to be voicing a view along the lines of 'we always sell our talent for peanuts while other clubs don't'. So, I posed the question is it the case that it isn't merely the McAllister sale causing grief for some folk, but rather, do they genuinely feel we always sell ourselves short whereas others are more savvy / stubborn / clued up - phrase that however you want. Still with me?

I phrased the possibility of a more deep-rooted discontent with the way St Mirren's BoD sell players over many years, by choosing two players who a Scottish 'wee club' did sell for the kind of cash that St Mirren would dearly love, by asking, had those million pound players been under the stewardship of the St Mirren BoD, not Hamilton's - do you think we'd just have papped them for 150k - 200k, while Accies clearly didn't. I'm not saying that St Mirren have million pound players, I'm asking if people think the issue is our BoD not doing as good a job as other BoDs. 

These mystery St Mirren stars now playing in the Premiership you are on about? What have these non-existent players got to do with anything? I'm posing a very simple question. Either you are being deliberately obtuse, or something else I don't quite understand.

I'll offer my opinion - I do believe that we haven't been as savvy as other clubs over the years. My view is that, like the kit deal and allowing JD to do it all, or allowing AWP to crack on and deal with the merchandising, or forming the Fan Council to do stuff for them, in many areas the old BoD took the path of least work involved for them. I do believe if they'd been in Accies shoes, they'd likely have taken the first offer that landed on their desk. You can agree or disagree with that, that's anyone's perogative, but try to stop being daft.

The reason I mention the non-existant St. Mirren players players is because that is precisely the reason we haven't sold any players for big money... we have never produced players of that calibre.

Your last paragraph gets to the REAL reason for your rant.

You have a personal grudge against the previous BoD, presumably because you fell out with them.

The BoD has changed. Let it go....

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3 minutes ago, mcdowell76 said:

The reason I mention the non-existant St. Mirren players players is because that is precisely the reason we haven't sold any players for big money... we have never produced players of that calibre.

Your last paragraph gets to the REAL reason for your rant.

You have a personal grudge against the previous BoD, presumably because you fell out with them.

The BoD has changed. Let it go....

You presume whatever you wish.

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2 minutes ago, class of 76-77 said:

The player wants to leave his agent wants him to leave,he could talk to clubs this summer and basically leave for zilch. He's 18 and played 20 odd games if we get 200 or 300 k with add on's plus a sell on fee then it's good business for a club of our standing and in our current position.

That's it in a nutshell. I don't see why some have such an issue with this. It's all about the club negotiating the best deal they can with the hand they are currently holding, as proven by the Mallan deal going cold, for now at least.

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