Bud the Baker Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 What I find funny peculiar is that last Tuesday @bazil85 was arguing the decision to give the OF the Family Stand for these games would raise £54k (a figure I still dispute) doubled that on Friday to £110k which by his own calculations would be an extra 1800+ fans per game or to be specific more than the capacity of the Family Stand and that's completely ignoring the W6/7 argument. Quote 900 fans X 3 games X £20 (reduced as an estimate for concessions) £54,000. Quote This won't be exact because one figure is obviously at a point of time and this is our current squad but the average first team players wage released early in the season was £46,169 and we currently have a 24 player squad right now. Total budget £1,108,056 10% £110,805. A more appropriate word for GLSs statement is spin but as ever it's no surprise to find Baz increasing the aggression within the debate by calling anyone who questions the Chairman a liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: What I find funny peculiar is that last Tuesday @bazil85 was arguing the decision to give the OF the Family Stand for these games would raise £54k (a figure I still dispute) doubled that on Friday to £110k which by his own calculations would be an extra 1800+ fans per game or to be specific more than the capacity of the Family Stand and that's completely ignoring the W6/7 argument. A more appropriate word for GLSs statement is spin but as ever it's no surprise to find Baz increasing the aggression within the debate by calling anyone who questions the Chairman a liar. Well you've completely confused yourself haven't you? The irony is you have went back and referenced W6/7 which completely defeats your point Let me clarify in one post for you: I did a number of calculation (all estimates never put as fact), that particular one was an estimate on the difference between W6/7 and two stands. I imagine GLS has looked at it as one vs two which I did initially and came to a bit less with very reserved calculations and not factoring in our improved catering position. The £110k was 10% of our player budget based on our released average wage (at the start of the season) multiplied by our number of players right now and I said as much. Don't let all that get in the way of a good story though So you think GLS is lying? the accusations people will make on here. Shame there aren't more willing to be big enough people to admit they were wrong, just slander away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykey Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 To be fair, GLS lied in his last statement, and since he didn't offer an apology now his lie was found out he could easily be lying again, but since he used terms like round about and roughly I'm going to be kind and say he's spinning. Good chairman on the whole though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) @bazil85 - They're your figures which you were defending vehemently up until GLSs statement which they contradict - why not ask GLS to explain his spin/assumptions or are you too committed to forelock tugging to try this? I'm not sure if he still uses his scoop1987 account to view/post on the site! Edited May 1, 2019 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: @bazil85 - They're your figures which you were defending vehemently up until GLSs statement which they contradict - why not ask GLS to explain his spin/assumptions or are you too committed to forelock tugging to try this? I'm not sure if he still uses his scoop1987 account to view/post on the site! Oh Bazil... if only Well, Hamilton and Dundee leave their defence so shaky in the next three games! the chairman was being deliberately obtuse by suggesting, not specifying that the old firm "closed to families" games mean a 10% increase in the playing budget. If it was 10% increase, and given he, and the board have demonstrated they aren't interested in building up the family aspect of our support, then pray tell why doesn't he do the same for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen games? that would be up to a 40% increase in the playing budget! Indeed if Kille are in the mix for a euro spot he could round it up to say a 50% increase by giving them another stand too! the next accounts are going to crucify this board, basically they will have spent near double their original playing/backroom staff bughet come the end of the season given all the Stubbs players who got hunted, and all Oran's signings. Add to that the hundreds of thousands paid in compo and compromise/mutual agreements and you can see why this board will spin any figures like a top to cover up their gross mismanagement of club finances. as a side note, do you think the chairman/board think we havent spotted their ringers on here? Too funny/pathetic for words! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 28 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: @bazil85 - They're your figures which you were defending vehemently up until GLSs statement which they contradict - why not ask GLS to explain his spin/assumptions or are you too committed to forelock tugging to try this? I'm not sure if he still uses his scoop1987 account to view/post on the site! Figures under different scenarios, do you understand what 'different scenarios' means? Seems like I don't need to ask if you know what 'estimate' means. So GLS is a liar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 4 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: Oh Bazil... if only Well, Hamilton and Dundee leave their defence so shaky in the next three games! the chairman was being deliberately obtuse by suggesting, not specifying that the old firm "closed to families" games mean a 10% increase in the playing budget. If it was 10% increase, and given he, and the board have demonstrated they aren't interested in building up the family aspect of our support, then pray tell why doesn't he do the same for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen games? that would be up to a 40% increase in the playing budget! Indeed if Kille are in the mix for a euro spot he could round it up to say a 50% increase by giving them another stand too! the next accounts are going to crucify this board, basically they will have spent near double their original playing/backroom staff bughet come the end of the season given all the Stubbs players who got hunted, and all Oran's signings. Add to that the hundreds of thousands paid in compo and compromise/mutual agreements and you can see why this board will spin any figures like a top to cover up their gross mismanagement of club finances. as a side note, do you think the chairman/board think we havent spotted their ringers on here? Too funny/pathetic for words! So he was lying and we are nowhere near 10% better off in our player budget? Not sure you're the best to make judgement on this given your clear vendetta against GLS. He doesn't do the same because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen don't fill (or very rarely) one stand never mind two. Do you really need that explained? You struggle to hide your excitement in the negative towards the club don't you? We'd be peeling you off the roof if what you said about the accounts turns out to be true. You'll completely ignore the fact (if it comes to pass) that it keeps us in the league with all the extra income streams that involves. The board made a mistake with Stubbs, they have held their hands up and tried to fix it at cost, no one has ever denied that. We know though, you're incapable of seeing anything apart from their flaws. I haven't, who are their ringers? If that was true it would be pretty pathetic. Not quite as bad as the most pathetic thing I've seen on here. After weeks of you banging on about community benefits you tried to convince everyone it was a bad thing, SMISA offering up £500 (subject to a vote) so some of the most vulnerable in our society could get a Christmas meal. Remember that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, bazil85 said: 1. Figures under different scenarios, do you understand what 'different scenarios' means? Seems like I don't need to ask if you know what 'estimate' means. 2. So GLS is a liar? Three posts in and we're already going around in circles - with you trying to confuse the issue. 1. I was just pointing out your scenarios/estimates would require more than the Family Stand capacity not to contradict GLSs statement "In short, the decision we took enabled us to increase our playing budget by 10%" - are you saying he's a liar? 2. I've already answered that, twice! Edited May 1, 2019 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Bud the Baker said: Three posts in and we're already going around in circles - with you trying to confuse the issue. 1. I was just pointing out your scenario/estimates contradict GLSs statement "In short, the decision we took enabled us to increase our playing budget by 10%" - are you saying he's lying? 2. I've already answered that, twice! 1. My scenarios were estimates not fact, I have said this many times 2. Have you? Have you categorically said he's lying or he's telling the truth? Must have missed it, I just see some dancing around the question As for me going in circles, my scenarios have been estimates and my points completely consistent. I'll break them down for you again to maybe support your understanding. I'm a good guy like that The average St Mirren player wage reported early in the season is £46,169 we have 25 (think I counted 24 last time, shock horror shoot me!) players noted in our squad. That would mean an annual budget of £1,154,225. Now to clarify (again) that is an ESTIMATE based on point of time statistics. 10% is £115,422.50 My first income scenario 1,654 X 3 X £20 = £99,240. As I said from practically the first page this figure is reserved and does not take into account more fans might be buying £27 tickets or our stronger catering position. Seems like my reserved estimate wasn't that far off was it? Your main takeaway from this is that my figures are estimates so no I'm not saying he's lying. If you still don't have an understanding that I also did another comparative (W6/7 Vs 2 stands) I can't make it any simpler I'm afraid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) @bazil85 IIRC the figure of £99,240 (which I now assume is gross not net ie minus VAT + sundry expenses) was laughed out of court for these reasons and also because it didn't take into account the away fans that were previously situated in W6/7 or the drop in Home Supporters from the Family Stand and revenue lost from those who watched the match elsewhere in the stadium which is probably why we ended up with the £54k (also gross?) figure last week which I still regarded as an overestimation. Please do make it simple for me and include your W6/7 comparison and how it all fits into your grand scheme of fantasies coz I must've missed it first time around. Your ability use whatever figures you consider to be most convenient at the drop of a hat and then claim you're "not too far off" is Trumpian - truly we do live in a world of alternative facts. FWIW when the 2018/19 Accounts come out I think we'll find your £1.15M estimate for the player budget on the conservative side too, it won't include player pay-offs or the transfer fee for Heaton and my guess that the January dealings will have increased the average wage. **************** Oh and as everyone's figures are estimates can we assume that no-one is lying? Let's tone down the language! Edited May 1, 2019 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Blair Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 [emoji849] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 17 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: @bazil85 IIRC the figure of £99,240 (which I now assume is gross not net ie minus VAT + sundry expenses) was laughed out of court for these reasons and also because it didn't take into account the away fans that were previously situated in W6/7 or the drop in Home Supporters from the Family Stand and revenue lost from those who watched the match elsewhere in the stadium which is probably why we ended up with the £54k (also gross?) figure last week which I still regarded as an overestimation. Please do make it simple for me and include your W6/7 comparison and how it all fits into your grand scheme of fantasies coz I must've missed it first time around. Your ability use whatever figures you consider to be most convenient at the drop of a hat and then claim you're "not too far off" is Trumpian - truly we do live in a world of alternative facts. FWIW when the 2018/19 Accounts come out I think we'll find your £1.15M estimate for the player budget on the conservative side too, it won't include player pay-offs or the transfer fee for Heaton and my guess that the January dealings will have increased the average wage. **************** Oh and as everyone's figures are estimates can we assume that no-one is lying? Let's tone down the language! Players wages are tax deductible on profits or we'd be paying tax twice on them so gross/ net isn't really a big factor here. So based on all that you are saying he is lying? Why are you so afraid just to say 'GLS is lying and it isn't a 10% increase in wage budget like he clearly said' The 54k was an estimate on W6/7 vs two stands. I assume GLS is comparing one vs two, which I did first and thought was more practical Why people wanted to compare to an arrangement when he wasn't even the chairman I have no idea but I still showed my estimate. What we do with other teams vs what we do with OF is perfectly reasonable from a comparison perspective I never said if the £1.15 million was conservative or otherwise, why are you putting words in my mouth? I said it was based on the only figures/ numbers available to me. What has the Heaton transfer got to do with anything? It is in no way relevant to what he said. Last bit is a contradiction. You either accept GLS is telling the truth on 10% or you're claiming someone with full access to our income and outgoings, accountants and likely others able to give financial advice is a liar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 What I find baffling is that Kilmarnock's board have clearly sat down in a room, worked out the figures and discovered that they can potentially make up the **% (**INSERT FIGURE HERE) by putting Killie fans first and marketing it as putting their own supporters first From a marketing POV, this approach would make a lot of sense for St Mirren - Home fans more likely to spend money on club merchandise, match programmes etc - Attracting families who will come every week, rather than just for a few games a season are exactly the type of people you want to attract to the stadium - From a supporter POV, it gives a renewed sense of pride in our club, and falls under the "One Town, One Team" brand There's always the issue that you'll have a few Rangers / Celtic fans on our system who manage to get tickets in the home end. I'm not that bothered by that as long as they ain't causing trouble. Also means they might come along and watch us if their team isn't playing that day in the future... Doesn't seem to be too many negatives, assuming you can make up the financial difference in other ways Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevo_smfc Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 It seems to me the chairman is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Releasing exact figures would have folk arguing too. As mentioned by another poster, you have to take different scenarios into situation in relation to money discussed. Since I pay Netflix on a monthly basis I might just go an chin then and ask them to release their accounts to the public domain since i'm subscribed to their service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaybee Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Lord Pityme said: Oh Bazil... if only Well, Hamilton and Dundee leave their defence so shaky in the next three games! the chairman was being deliberately obtuse by suggesting, not specifying that the old firm "closed to families" games mean a 10% increase in the playing budget. If it was 10% increase, and given he, and the board have demonstrated they aren't interested in building up the family aspect of our support, then pray tell why doesn't he do the same for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen games? that would be up to a 40% increase in the playing budget! Indeed if Kille are in the mix for a euro spot he could round it up to say a 50% increase by giving them another stand too! the next accounts are going to crucify this board, basically they will have spent near double their original playing/backroom staff bughet come the end of the season given all the Stubbs players who got hunted, and all Oran's signings. Add to that the hundreds of thousands paid in compo and compromise/mutual agreements and you can see why this board will spin any figures like a top to cover up their gross mismanagement of club finances. as a side note, do you think the chairman/board think we havent spotted their ringers on here? Too funny/pathetic for words! Are you not missing a point or four also? His club, his players, his staff, his choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 35 minutes ago, Doakes said: What I find baffling is that Kilmarnock's board have clearly sat down in a room, worked out the figures and discovered that they can potentially make up the **% (**INSERT FIGURE HERE) by putting Killie fans first and marketing it as putting their own supporters first From a marketing POV, this approach would make a lot of sense for St Mirren - Home fans more likely to spend money on club merchandise, match programmes etc - Attracting families who will come every week, rather than just for a few games a season are exactly the type of people you want to attract to the stadium - From a supporter POV, it gives a renewed sense of pride in our club, and falls under the "One Town, One Team" brand There's always the issue that you'll have a few Rangers / Celtic fans on our system who manage to get tickets in the home end. I'm not that bothered by that as long as they ain't causing trouble. Also means they might come along and watch us if their team isn't playing that day in the future... Doesn't seem to be too many negatives, assuming you can make up the financial difference in other ways I think the principle is right here but it can't be a coincidence that Killie have done this after the most successful 18 month spell they've had in years. Crowds are up and they can grow on that. We aren't in the same position, if we were getting their attendances I'm pretty sure we'd be only given them one stand. Renfrewshire being well ahead of Kilmarnock in population, it's something we could hopefully do. Also what people need to realise is their away stand can hold 4,406, more than the two stands we give combined. I would speculate if it held what ours does they might have came to another outcome. We may lose ground on the stuff you have mentioned but again we may not. I don't think there's been a massive amount of evidence that any of those areas have significantly suffered. It is fact that we have sold more season tickets this year than any other at the new stadium for example (well some might think GLS is lying about that as well if this thread is anything to go by ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Lord Pityme said: Oh Bazil... if only Well, Hamilton and Dundee leave their defence so shaky in the next three games! the chairman was being deliberately obtuse by suggesting, not specifying that the old firm "closed to families" games mean a 10% increase in the playing budget. If it was 10% increase, and given he, and the board have demonstrated they aren't interested in building up the family aspect of our support, then pray tell why doesn't he do the same for Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen games? crazy TALK that would be up to a 40% increase in the playing budget! RIDICULOUS WOFFLE TO SUPPORT YOUR CRAZY TALK Indeed if Kille are in the mix for a euro spot he could round it up to say a 50% increase by giving them another stand too! Just to go even more ridiculous add in another team that does not bring a huge travelling fan base. the next accounts are going to crucify this board, YOU KNOW THIS HOW - OH RIGHT you have not got a clue have you? The accounts will show the higher budget we needed to get through this season after your favourite manager Stubzo screwed us big style... basically they will have spent near double their original playing/backroom staff bughet come the end of the season given all the Stubbs players who got hunted, and all Oran's signings. Add to that the hundreds of thousands paid in compo Would love to see the evidence for this - Oh as usual YOU HAVE NONE - NOT GOT SQUAT HAVE YOU? and compromise/mutual agreements and you can see why this board will spin What about your spin against every board we have - this one, last one etc. any figures like a top to cover up their gross mismanagement so let's see your charges against them rather than just a claim with nothing to substantiate it - OH again you have NOTHING of club finances. as a side note, do you think the chairman/board think we havent spotted their ringers on here? Too funny/pathetic for words! Would I listen to your CLAIMS and believe them any more or less than GLS's ? No not ever . . . Even if you are both liars - he at least is doing something of significance for our club... This BOD have taken us up a league, improved the team hugely and not run up any significant debt as you will see when the accounts get published - how does that fit with your pathetic hypothetical negative arguments? Decent fans know we are on the up and we have plenty decent fans . . . Edited May 1, 2019 by Sweeper07 extra highlighting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) @bazil85 Firstly I'm not putting words in your mouth regarding the £1.15M figure, read the sentence carefully, it's my opinion it'll turn out to be conservative when the 2018/19 Accounts are released, also where does Heaton's transfer fee come from if not out of the overall player budget? ******************** I think GLSs statement is unclear on the matter as do you when you say "The 54k was an estimate on W6/7 vs two stands. I assume GLS is comparing one vs two". even you thought including W6/7 was valid last week. Any normal person would find your forelock tugging embarrassing! Quote Why are you so afraid just to say 'GLS is lying and it isn't a 10% increase in wage budget like he clearly said' So clear that you have to "assume" he is comparing one stand vs two. I think he's spinning the facts, but if you want to say he's lying then that's your prerogative! Edited May 1, 2019 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 2 hours ago, bazil85 said: So he was lying and we are nowhere near 10% better off in our player budget? Not sure you're the best to make judgement on this given your clear vendetta against GLS. He doesn't do the same because Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen don't fill (or very rarely) one stand never mind two. Do you really need that explained? You struggle to hide your excitement in the negative towards the club don't you? We'd be peeling you off the roof if what you said about the accounts turns out to be true. You'll completely ignore the fact (if it comes to pass) that it keeps us in the league with all the extra income streams that involves. The board made a mistake with Stubbs, they have held their hands up and tried to fix it at cost, no one has ever denied that. We know though, you're incapable of seeing anything apart from their flaws. I haven't, who are their ringers? If that was true it would be pretty pathetic. Not quite as bad as the most pathetic thing I've seen on here. After weeks of you banging on about community benefits you tried to convince everyone it was a bad thing, SMISA offering up £500 (subject to a vote) so some of the most vulnerable in our society could get a Christmas meal. Remember that? I remember voting to give the christmas meal all the money they were asking for! But people like you didnt want them to have it, so an embarrassed smisa had to find more cash to dig you out of a hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said: Would I listen to your CLAIMS and believe them any more of less that GLS's ? No not ever . . . Even if you are both liars - he at least is doing something of significance for our club... This BOD have taken us up a league, improved the team hugely and not run up any significant debt as you will see when the accounts get published - how does that fit with your pathetic hypothetical negative arguments? And the first 'Ringer' lets the mask slip! lol when the 'Ringers' start posting in green font it will feel a bit like this.... Edited May 1, 2019 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: I remember voting to give the christmas meal all the money they were asking for! But people like you didnt want them to have it, so an embarrassed smisa had to find more cash to dig you out of a hole. Gave up answering me cause you keep getting shown up . . . Edited May 1, 2019 by Sweeper07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doakes Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 23 minutes ago, bazil85 said: I think the principle is right here but it can't be a coincidence that Killie have done this after the most successful 18 month spell they've had in years. Crowds are up and they can grow on that. We aren't in the same position, if we were getting their attendances I'm pretty sure we'd be only given them one stand. Renfrewshire being well ahead of Kilmarnock in population, it's something we could hopefully do. Also what people need to realise is their away stand can hold 4,406, more than the two stands we give combined. I would speculate if it held what ours does they might have came to another outcome. We may lose ground on the stuff you have mentioned but again we may not. I don't think there's been a massive amount of evidence that any of those areas have significantly suffered. It is fact that we have sold more season tickets this year than any other at the new stadium for example (well some might think GLS is lying about that as well if this thread is anything to go by ) Our average home crowd is about the same as Kilmarnock's tbf They give the OF 8,000+ tickets which massively boosts their average over the season # Stadium Capacity Spectators Average Total: 252.344 3.141.452 16.276 1 Celtic Park Celtic FC 60.832 975.957 57.409 2 Ibrox Stadium Rangers FC 50.987 792.547 49.534 3 Tynecastle Park Heart of Midlothian FC 20.099 298.409 17.553 4 Easter Road Stadium Hibernian FC 20.250 279.580 17.474 5 Pittodrie Stadium Aberdeen FC 22.199 254.007 14.942 6 Rugby Park Kilmarnock FC 18.128 104.736 6.546 7 Kilmac Stadium at Dens Park Dundee FC 11.850 99.365 6.210 8 Simple Digital Arena St. Mirren FC 8.023 90.016 5.295 9 Fir Park Motherwell FC 13.750 79.598 5.307 10 Tony Macaroni Arena Livingston FC 9.512 61.121 3.820 11 McDiarmid Park St. Johnstone FC 10.696 58.790 4.199 12 HopeCBD Stadium Hamilton Academical FC 6.018 47.326 2.958 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: And the first 'Ringer' lets the mask slip! lol Does it make you a ringer if you are happy to support a BOD who are improving our club/team? What you do on the forum makes you a twat - wild claims and nothing to back it up . . . Come on give us the actual factual evidence for your crazy claims I list once again :- the next accounts are going to crucify this board, basically they will have spent near double their original playing/backroom staff bughet come the end of the season Add to that the hundreds of thousands paid in compo any figures like a top to cover up their gross mismanagement of club finances. Edited May 1, 2019 by Sweeper07 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said: Does it make you a ringer if you are happy to support a BOD who are improving our club/team? What you do on the forum makes you a twat - wild claims and nothing to back it up . . . Do you kiss you're mom with that mouth? potty mouth.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeper07 Posted May 1, 2019 Report Share Posted May 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said: Do you kiss you're mom with that mouth? potty mouth.... usual no answers deflections - sad really - do you like looking or being stupid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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