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General Election 8th June


faraway saint

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Guest TPAFKATS
I changed my post because it wasn't technically paedophilia.
He ended up on the SO register because he admitted guilt FFS.
We don't tend to put innocent people on that register.

They used to put people on that register if they were caught pissing in a public place. Depends on how you define innocent I suppose.
All a bit off topic anyway
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Guest TPAFKATS
Sounds like a choice between Nicky is she a Knobcheese or Theresa is she a Knobcheese

Independent Knob Cheese or Stand United Knobcheese

A vote for any other Knobcheese is just Smeg.

 

:withstupid

X

This is what is wrong with our electoral system and electorate. You are voting to elect an MP, in my case Mhairi Black is the current incumbent.

Nicola Sturgeon isn't standing in any constituency and I'd be amazed if anyone posting on here is currently served by Theresa May as their MP. We are not electing a PM or President and it isn't a rerun of any single issue referendum as that would be, well a referendum.

 

All of which makes the whole GE a complete f**king nonsense from a f**kwit of a prime minister who reckons we should have unity in a parliament.

 

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Let me try again then.
This is the post I made which appears to have engaged your ire.
There will always be people in need.
Our benefits system is as generous as it ever has been historically but apparently it is still not enough.
I am certain that we could pay everyone £30k per year in benefits and foodbanks and payday lenders would still be getting used.
Which of those three things is wrong?
There will always be people in need? You can't seriously disagree with that.
Our benefits system is as generous as it has ever been? Historically that is simply indisputable. When you include tax credits for those in low paid jobs it is VERY generous. Yes, I accept the Tories are reining it in now but you need to talk to people who can remember the state of welfare in the 1980's or earlier. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't have a welfare state at all. Now it is possible to have benefits so generous that a cap of £25k per year is needed. £25k a year? On benefits? When we have people using foodbanks we were giving some people in excess of £25k per year for sitting at home? Indefensible.
That leaves the last comment. It is my belief that a large percentage of those at the bottom are living chaotic lives. Are you disagreeing with that? Many of them have virtually no education whatsoever. That means they either don't know how to budget or are lack the ability to do so. In those circumstances, simply handing them more and more benefits is not going to solve their problems.
None of this is controversial so I have absolutely no idea where you are coming from.
We need to identify those on benefits who need a nudge or a kick up the arse, whatever phrase you prefer.
We need to get them weaned off benefits and into work because it better for them, their kids and society at large for them to be tax payers.
Then we need to use that money to provide actually useful help to the people right at the bottom who cannot help themselves.
Obviously there should be money available to help those temporarily hitting hard times but it needn't take the form of handing over so much cash that it pays more than working in a full time job.

Let me try this again - me no waste more time on pompous oaksoft.

[emoji106]
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1 minute ago, TPAFKATS said:


This is what is wrong with our electoral system and electorate. You are voting to elect an MP, in my case Mhairi Black is the current incumbent.
Nicola Sturgeon isn't standing in any constituency and I'd be amazed if anyone posting on here is currently served by Theresa May as their MP. We are not electing a PM or President and it isn't a rerun of any single issue referendum as that would be, well a referendum.

All of which makes the whole GE a complete f**king nonsense from a f**king of a prime minister who reckons we should have unity in a parliament.

I agree and to a certain extent I concur with your concerns. It is obvious the tories do not see this as a General Election to elect a prime minister or even MP's. We don't need one of these till 2020. This is purely about Brexit and crushing opposition. Scots People have two choices hard Brexit which addresses the wishes of those who voted Leave or some kind of fudge to pacify those who lost the referendum. 

The whole think is a Clusterf**k and the SNP will seek to gain an advantage just like the LIB DEMS are doing

Will voting for independence make things better or worse. I can't see how it will make it better but I'm willing to listen.

Unity in Parliament possibly would give us more clout in the brexit negotiations so that cant be all bad can it?

:withstupid

Its true Dicko and I have never been seen in the same room but that means Feck all

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Utter shambles. Let's be honest here, we have MP's, we have MEP's we have MSP's, our Lordships, then we go local and throughout the UK there are thousands of Councillors. Just how many political representatives do we need ? Let's face it the country, whether on a Scottish English Welsh. N Irish parochial Indy minded level, or a unity based UK bias, the place is an utter f**kin shambles. All this political representation , that we pay for , someone please tell me, what the f**k for ?? I'm scunnert with the lot of them and now we have a GE. Christ this just encourages the talking bobbing nodding heads. Then when it's over, we'll let's bleed the electorate a little more.
Politicians !!! Every one a right squabbling grasping dogmatic angling self opinionated f**ker. Girfuy all [emoji37]

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

 

Our benefits system is as generous as it has ever been? Historically that is simply indisputable. When you include tax credits for those in low paid jobs it is VERY generous. Yes, I accept the Tories are reining it in now but you need to talk to people who can remember the state of welfare in the 1980's or earlier. It wasn't that long ago that we didn't have a welfare state at all. Now it is possible to have benefits so generous that a cap of £25k per year is needed. £25k a year? On benefits? When we have people using foodbanks we were giving some people in excess of £25k per year for sitting at home? Indefensible.

 

So which is it Oakie?

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Guest TPAFKATS
I agree and to a certain extent I concur with your concerns. It is obvious the tories do not see this as a General Election to elect a prime minister or even MP's. We don't need one of these till 2020. This is purely about Brexit and crushing opposition. Scots People have two choices hard Brexit which addresses the wishes of those who voted Leave or some kind of fudge to pacify those who lost the referendum. 
The whole think is a Clusterf**k and the SNP will seek to gain an advantage just like the LIB DEMS are doing
Will voting for independence make things better or worse. I can't see how it will make it better but I'm willing to listen.
Unity in Parliament possibly would give us more clout in the brexit negotiations so that cant be all bad can it?
:withstupid
Its true Dicko and I have never been seen in the same room but that means Feck all

Although I quoted your post, my reply was also just expressing exasperation at the whole process including how the media will polarise and also make it about leaders personalities.

As for May and the Tories, they would be expected to seek advantage from the opinion polls showing how far ahead they are. It isn't really about Brexit though as they already have a majority together with an official opposition that hasn't yet opposed any Brexit votes.They are however also seeking to use any increased majority as a mandate to push through the new post Brexit legislation. This'll be the stuff that severely reduces workers rights.
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5 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

Two years ago today I posted this. I believe it still to be as relevant today.

Interestingly, It created much discussion, a lot of criticism, and a few cases of "unfriending"!

I was brought up in a time when your vote was a private thing. Something you just didn't discuss.

As the great prophet Dylan said tho... the times they are a changin'.

This is a good thing... many more people are politically aware. But many more have as much apathy as ever, and that is understandable.

I have said nothing in public to date... but I am genuinely concerned.

Of course I know that this will be sheer heresay to some of my friends... possibly end up in some unfriending.... ... though I hope not. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

Cards on the table time...

I still don't know who I will vote for... but I know who I can't vote for in a General election.

SNP.

I have voted SNP at a local level a number of times. At a local level, their representatives are by far the best and most effective. Streets ahead.

At a national level, I am totally in awe at their campaign over the last decade.

Their use of social media and public interaction has been genius and actually quite refreshing.

The current campaign is also incredibly well structured. Vote SNP and our Westminster MPs will make the baddies accountable. Genius.

If SNP stood for what is best for Scotland full stop, I'd join the party myself.

But it doesn't. It will always have an ultimate aim of breaking up the UK. I'd much rather reform it, redistribute the powerbase, and increase regional autonomy.

More SNP MP's will result in carnage in Westminster... they will do all they can to create anti-Scottish feelings throughout the UK, then using the anti-Scottish rhetoric within Scotland to enhance the campaign for independence.

Just watch... that has already begun.

Genius. Dangerous... but genius.

Nicola Sturgeon can pull it off too... the perfect public speaker and infinitely more likeable than her predecessor to non SNP voters.

Despite the denials, a vote for SNP IS a vote in favour of independence. Even if you don't want that or believe that to be so. It will be used as such.

Doh. The hints in the party name. BUT. What is worse? An unchecked, ultra right wing conservative party destroying the working man's rights, (and don't attempt to make light of it because this is ultimately what will happen without EU checks), or the possibility that our wee nation can conduct reasonable business with the rest of the UK and the world at large while protecting historical, positive, Scottish values of a caring society where the least well off are protected and the exploitation of workers is kept to a minimum? AFAIC, there is no contest. I will NEVER accept that the rich get richer, trickle down, cap in hand philosophy of those who nestle in the bust of that horrendous party that have done more to split the union and their own country with a self preserving referendum on our economic future is what the UK need, let alone Scotland. Be Brave.

Edited by stlucifer
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5 hours ago, Drew said:

Hmm. In what way would I be forsaking my democratic right? Surely I would be exercising exactly that - my right to vote in the way I choose, based on any reasoning I opt to employ.

The point is that, as I've already explained (probably ineffectively), my main driver in voting on long term constitutional issues is the future of younger and future generations. It will, after all, impact upon their lives in a more enduring way. I'm influenced in doing this by what I understand to be the prevailing sentiment of those generations (that's not to say I couldn't be calling that inaccurately, of course). Certainly, my desire to do the right thing by my children guides me to be influenced by their vision of the type of country they want to live in.

As a rule, I would approach the election of governing administrations in a different way. They are short term, temporary arrangements. A completely different proposition to hugely significant constitutional decisions.

^^^^^  knobcheese. :P

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4 hours ago, BuddieinEK said:

 


No problem whatsoever in people believing in it.

The minute the results were announced we had people complaining the vote was rigged and demanding a new one.

A wee decade of stability and concentrating in using our devolved powers to the full whilst campaigning positively for more devolved powers throighout the UK... That would be my preference.

 

Which would have occurred had our Union partners in England and Wales not made plain their dislike of furriners.  It is Brexit that has brought independence back to the surface and anyone who says otherwise is at it.

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5 hours ago, East Lothian Saint said:
The European Free Trade Association is a regional trade organisation and Free trade area consisting of four European states: Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway, and Switzerland. Wikipedia
 
Area: 529,600 km²
Founded: 1960
Population: 13.59 million (2012)
GDP (nominal): 2011 IMF estimate
Currencies: Icelandic króna (ISO 4217), Norwegian krone (ISO 4217), Swiss franc (ISO 4217)
 
:withstupid
 
EFTA IS Tiny England alone is 3 or 4 times bigger.

EFTA may be tiny but it is a way of staying connected to Europe whilst retaining as much national sovereignty as the states wish.  Membership of this group does not mean you only trade with those other members which I believe is what your 'I'm with stupid' thing is implying.:rolleyes:

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9 minutes ago, scottd said:

Which would have occurred had our Union partners in England and Wales not made plain their dislike of furriners.  It is Brexit that has brought independence back to the surface and anyone who says otherwise is at it.

The Englanders and Welshies who voted for Brexit didn't do so because they dislike furriners. They did it to take back control.

 

 

 

 

 

Pssst. Someone give me a nudge when anyone takes back control of something. The telly remote control, anything.

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11 minutes ago, scottd said:

EFTA may be tiny but it is a way of staying connected to Europe whilst retaining as much national sovereignty as the states wish.  Membership of this group does not mean you only trade with those other members which I believe is what your 'I'm with stupid' thing is implying.:rolleyes:

I think the point here Scott is that, the Norwegian contribution is massive compared to what they get in return , another Euro humping of the little guy . The further we can distance ourselves from that undemocratic superstate the better. .

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I see the SNP abstained in the GE vote. What was the thinking behind that?

The SNP had said it supports fixed-term parliaments, but would not stand in the way of an early election.

1 hour ago, stlucifer said:

Doh. The hints in the party name. BUT. What is worse? An unchecked, ultra right wing conservative party destroying the working man's rights, (and don't attempt to make light of it because this is ultimately what will happen without EU checks), or the possibility that our wee nation can conduct reasonable business with the rest of the UK and the world at large while protecting historical, positive, Scottish values of a caring society where the least well off are protected and the exploitation of workers is kept to a minimum? AFAIC, there is no contest. I will NEVER accept that the rich get richer, trickle down, cap in hand philosophy of those who nestle in the bust of that horrendous party that have done more to split the union and their own country with a self preserving referendum on our economic future is what the UK need, let alone Scotland. Be Brave.

Someone who doesn't sit on the fence and calls it how he sees it. I respect that but I think the political landscape has changed to the extent the cost of divorce from the UK would be prohibitive and the proceedings would be so messy that the short term costs and acrimony would be so painful that any long term benefits we may have obtained will be hard to attain.

I get your point on the Xenophobic, anti European English and Brexit will no doubt prove to be an expensive folly. Independence is also a massive risk.

Also can we trust wee NIcky to see it through.

All the Brexit twats like Boris Johnstone, Nigel Farage, and Michael Gove all fecked off when they achieved their goal leaving others to clear up the mess.

Lots of uncertainty. No answers

EFTA is a mini European Union that allows Free Movement of all EU and EFTA members. Some say we could join that. It might be plausible. Policing of the English Border would have to change to comply with EU law. 

Brexit has definitely thrown a spanner in the works and if we get independence too I'm not exactly sure how we can pay for it all or what the new world would look like.

This GE vote will need some careful thought and its good to get all the different viewpoints

:withstupid

because I don't have a clue

 

 

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25 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I think the point here Scott is that, the Norwegian contribution is massive compared to what they get in return , another Euro humping of the little guy . The further we can distance ourselves from that undemocratic superstate the better. .

I'm not an EU fan, far from it, but I'm even less of a UK fan after what has happened in the last 12 months.  The most important Union to get Scotland out of is the UK then work on t he relationship with Europe.

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12 minutes ago, East Lothian Saint said:

I see the SNP abstained in the GE vote. What was the thinking behind that?

The SNP had said it supports fixed-term parliaments, but would not stand in the way of an early election.

Someone who doesn't sit on the fence and calls it how he sees it. I respect that but I think the political landscape has changed to the extent the cost of divorce from the UK would be prohibitive and the proceedings would be so messy that the short term costs and acrimony would be so painful that any long term benefits we may have obtained will be hard to attain.

I get your point on the Xenophobic, anti European English and Brexit will no doubt prove to be an expensive folly. Independence is also a massive risk.

Also can we trust wee NIcky to see it through.

All the Brexit twats like Boris Johnstone, Nigel Farage, and Michael Gove all fecked off when they achieved their goal leaving others to clear up the mess.

Lots of uncertainty. No answers

EFTA is a mini European Union that allows Free Movement of all EU and EFTA members. Some say we could join that. It might be plausible. Policing of the English Border would have to change to comply with EU law. 

Brexit has definitely thrown a spanner in the works and if we get independence too I'm not exactly sure how we can pay for it all or what the new world would look like.

This GE vote will need some careful thought and its good to get all the different viewpoints

:withstupid

because I don't have a clue

 

 

In that vote an abstention is the same as a vote against, as the motion required 2/3 of MP's to vote in favour to pass.

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11 minutes ago, scottd said:

In that vote an abstention is the same as a vote against, as the motion required 2/3 of MP's to vote in favour to pass.

Not the best way to start by giving the impression they are running scared. This is their big chance to get an indisputable mandate and they abstain.

Don't get it. Should they not have started on the front foot  making a claim for every Scottish seat claiming it's in Scotland's best interest to get the Tories out?

 

Edited by East Lothian Saint
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They abstained because it keeps their philosophy intact. No need to vote but it makes it clear they wanted to adhere to a fixed term. Win, win.

3 short of a whitewash and 2 terms as the largest party in Hollyrood? Looks like a mandate. Sounds like a mandate..........

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33 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

They abstained because it keeps their philosophy intact. No need to vote but it makes it clear they wanted to adhere to a fixed term. Win, win.

3 short of a whitewash and 2 terms as the largest party in Hollyrood? Looks like a mandate. Sounds like a mandate..........

Reminds me of an old eskimo joke "Smells like a Bear shite, feels like a bear shite, tastes like a bear shite....... Good job we didn't step in it"

Many of the voters who put them there didn't want independence but if they win this one convincingly I'll accept they have a mandate.

Anyway enough of this Pish. It's just been confirmed I've got cover for work on Saturday and I can go to the game. I'm off to the matchday, Dundee Utd thread instead of this one. Need to check train times etc. Bye.

Edited by East Lothian Saint
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I'm a member of the SNP but I've lost faith in my own MSP and MP due to lack of support they provided to my Mum who was one of two ladies driving the recent Mesh campaign in Scotland. The only one that has spoken out about how the mesh review was carried out was Alex Neil. All the support has came from Labour and Tory MSPs, which pissed me off as I have backed the SNP for many years, and when my family needed them to take action they not only let us down but hundreds of others in Scotland. It's left a real sour taste in my mouth and I will be resigning my membership as I don't have faith.

So for the council elections, I'll be backing the greens or an independent I think.

However for the General Election, I think I will still vote SNP as I think they are the only credible option at WM for the seats for Scotland.

Hoping for independence one day, and for lots of new political parties to emerge on the back of that.

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3 hours ago, scottd said:

Which would have occurred had our Union partners in England and Wales not made plain their dislike of furriners.  It is Brexit that has brought independence back to the surface and anyone who says otherwise is at it.

The way Brexit is being used as justification for another Indy referendum, one would be forgiven for thinking that every single Scot had voted to remain part of the EU.

1.7 million voted to remain.

1 million voted to leave.

A sizable majority granted, but as a percentage of the electorate hardly the way it is being portrayed.

Let's be totally honest about it... despite losing at the last referendum, Independence has never left the table... NS has hinted at a second referendum at every opportunity and has been very clever in her manipulation of voters on both sides of the country... for example voting on Fox Hunting in England and Wales just to piss off the electorate outwith Scotland!

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6 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:


They used to put people on that register if they were caught pissing in a public place. Depends on how you define innocent I suppose.
All a bit off topic anyway

Actually I did know that but forgot.

Either way, the guy was put on there for admitting to having a stash of child porn on his PC. 

Of course he wrote a couple of good tunes a while back so people make allowances for that.

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