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Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

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1 hour ago, antrin said:

The people wanted BREXIT: this is the reality of BREXIT.

It was never necessary for government to pay any heed to a stupid referendum, but rabid BREXIT Tories and weak Cameron caved in to it... May naturally leapt at the chance to be PM  and gave BREXIT lip service...

 

Still. The main thing is that you respect democracy and you respect the result of the referendum.  :lol:

 

Edited by oaksoft
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Aye.

As long as we understand that a referendum in the UK is not democracy.

 

We have a Parliamentary democracy.  This is a" good thing", as... if we vote stupidly in an election.. then we get a chance to change our votes once we observed the facts, figures, truths and potential pitfalls and disasters that may arise.

 

Democracy allows room for voters to change their minds.

Indeed, it demands flexibility in thinking for it be acceptable.

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11 minutes ago, antrin said:

Aye.

As long as we understand that a referendum in the UK is not democracy.

 

We have a Parliamentary democracy.  This is a" good thing", as... if we vote stupidly in an election.. then we get a chance to change our votes once we observed the facts, figures, truths and potential pitfalls and disasters that may arise.

 

Democracy allows room for voters to change their minds.

Indeed, it demands flexibility in thinking for it be acceptable.

As long as we understand that a referendum in the UK is not democracy?

Says who?

We have more than one form of democratic vehicle in the UK.

Of course a referendum is a democratic vehicle. Why on earth would you say that it wasn't?

Being able or not to change a democratic vote doesn't lessen it's democratic value.

You are making stuff up on the hoof to justify attacking a decision which went against your beliefs.

Oh, and you are using the word stupid here. That is your opinion. It is not a fact. Surprised that you are confusing them.

Your posts on here on this subject suggest you are letting your Inner Chimp control what you say.

You should learn to manage it. Toss it a banana.

Edited by oaksoft
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No.

 

You're wrong.

There has never been any legal requirement for MPs or governments to pay heed to the result of a referendum.

 

You (or other Brexiters or Nationalists) may think referenda are definitely a democratic construct and their outcomes must be adhered to - but you'd be (and you are) wrong.

 

There, there...

 

 

...have a banana.

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5 hours ago, antrin said:

There has never been any legal requirement for MPs or governments to pay heed to the result of a referendum.

I am sure you'll be able to direct me to a post where I made that claim.

You are not going to win points by wrongly pretending I have said specific things.

If 5 people decide to have a vote about where to eat and 3 people vote for KFC then that is a democratic decision whether they actually end up at KFC or not.

You now seem to be confusing a democratic vehicle with a legal requirement to obey the result of that democratic vehicle.

If you can manage your Inner Chimp, you might be able to discuss things in a logical manner instead of putting imaginary words into the mouths of those you are talking with.

 

Edited by oaksoft
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4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I am sure you'll be able to direct me to a post where I made that claim.

OK, Oakie…   see below...

 

You are not going to win points by wrongly pretending I have said specific things.

If 5 people decide to have a vote about where to eat and 3 people vote for KFC then that is a democratic decision whether they actually end up at KFC or not.

You now seem to be confusing a democratic vehicle with a legal requirement to obey the result of that democratic vehicle.

If you can manage your Inner Chimp, you might be able to discuss things in a logical manner instead of putting imaginary words into the mouths of those you are talking with.

I pointed out that in the UK ' a referendum is not democracy' - as you had claimed that they were indivisible, by posting...

"The main thing is that you respect democracy and you respect the result of the referendum."

You then challenged me to tell you. "says who?"   I offered Wikipedia, thinking it was the blandest (and thus most the apt vehicle for you) to find the "says who" that you so needed.

That succinctly explained why I rejected your conjoining referenda and democracy.  It's because referenda are irrelevant in the context of the Brexit discussion.  It vindicates why I said, there is no need to for Parliament and MPs to pay heed to the results of referenda.

It's not I who is the confused one, squirming around for an out.  There has been no need for me  to "pretend you said specific things".  I just quote your own simple words.

I have followed the logic of these sentences and it's you who has unravelled.

 

I know what democracy is; I know about referenda and Parliamentary sovereignty; I will, however, doff my cap to your greater knowledge of FKC... whatever that may be.

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4 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

Looks like okay got his chimp book as recommended by Jack Ross.
Just the thing for the long international break.

It's a very good book.

You should read it.

It would help you with that victim complex you carry around in your coat pocket.

Edited by oaksoft
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26 minutes ago, antrin said:

I pointed out that in the UK ' a referendum is not democracy' - as you had claimed that they were indivisible, by posting...

"The main thing is that you respect democracy and you respect the result of the referendum."

You then challenged me to tell you. "says who?"   I offered Wikipedia, thinking it was the blandest (and thus most the apt vehicle for you) to find the "says who" that you so needed.

That succinctly explained why I rejected your conjoining referenda and democracy.  It's because referenda are irrelevant in the context of the Brexit discussion.  It vindicates why I said, there is no need to for Parliament and MPs to pay heed to the results of referenda.

It's not I who is the confused one, squirming around for an out.  There has been no need for me  to "pretend you said specific things".  I just quote your own simple words.

I have followed the logic of these sentences and it's you who has unravelled.

 

I know what democracy is; I know about referenda and Parliamentary sovereignty; I will, however, doff my cap to your greater knowledge of FKC... whatever that may be.

 

A referendum does not have to be legally binding to be democratic. That is the point we are arguing over. Stop wittering.

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3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

 

A referendum does not have to be legally binding to be democratic. That is the point we are arguing over. Stop wittering.

Now, now.... I am at least now glad you've recognised that YOU were wittering!  :)CHI_03_RK0056_03_P.JPG

I'd never disputed that referenda in some countries and in some contexts CAN be deemed to be democracy in action.  I am not on any other threads debating any other subject than Brexit and how the 2016 referendum result in this context is an irrelevancy.

11 hours ago, oaksoft said:

As long as we understand that a referendum in the UK is not democracy?

Says who?

This is where your best laid scheme ganged agley...

Enjoy your potassium hit.

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3 minutes ago, antrin said:

Now, now.... I am at least now glad you've recognised that YOU were wittering!  :)CHI_03_RK0056_03_P.JPG

I'd never disputed that referenda in some countries and in some contexts CAN be deemed to be democracy in action.  I am not on any other threads debating any other subject than Brexit and how the 2016 referendum result in this context is an irrelevancy.

This is where your best laid scheme ganged agley...

Enjoy your potassium hit.

You said the Brexit referendum result was not democratic because the result wasn't legally binding.

It certainly was democratic. Whether the result is legally binding changes nothing. End of story.

The last time I saw anyone argue in the manner you have done on this issue was when I was at primary school.

Either step up your debating skills or I'll leave you to it.

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12 hours ago, Sweeper07 said:

You prove my points perfectly :-

1. You are not bright.

2. you have a closed mind and make no attempt to follow any LOGICAL arguments.

I had already left you to it, Oakie. 

I'd realised (much like sweeper07, surprisingly) that logic and context are not tools in your locker.

Taking words out of context and arguing that words mean whatever you want them to mean is...

...straight out of Wonderland.

You're no longer in Primary School. 

You've barely graduated from primate school - have a banana.

Edited by antrin
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On 16 November 2018 at 1:09 PM, antrin said:

ps

from wikipedia

"due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty meaning that they cannot be constitutionally binding on either the Government or Parliament"

That might well be true and l'm not going to argue with it. However , by the sounds of it MPs are willing to recognise the will of the people to leave Europe per the referendum result . . Also worth remembering that the Wilson regime had a referendum in the 7ts to ratify the agreement signed earlier by Edward Heath , to join the then EEC . At no time do l recall there being any kind of vote to be part of a European superstate. , additionally, I'm not aware of a peer reviewed scientific paper on this so God knows why oakstur is in here . .

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I don't disagree with any of that, saintnnextifetime...

(Oakie was quibbling over the interpretation of why I said referenda are democratically here and have no legal power wrt how MPs in Parliament may vote. )

I'm aware that some MPs are being over-sensitive to a mendacious, fuddled presentation (on both sides) of a 'problem' that should have been miraculously solved by a people's vote.  And they are scared/respectful of that mildly popular vote.

The people were promised manna from heaven, bread tomorrow, an aryan future, £350m a week to invest in the NHS etc etc

It turns out that what May has now presented as the  'choice' that thy wanted(given that the Gammons voted for it in a fuddled referendum) is:

Either her 'positive outcome' , in which the politics, communications, trade agreements, research, health services, several lifetimes of inter-relationship s with foreign nationals will be stopped until we institute new arrangements - on a basis of the EU's choosing.   There will be no further influence on what is happening in the EU but we must adhere to whatever rule changes they implement and freedom of movement will be restricted for us - if it IS for them coming here...    There seems to be some dispensation for trade in goods.  No mention of Services so the money mongers/ hedge funds etc who have already made millions from this farrago will be free to continue pillaging.  I'm sure you've been aware of those boasting how much they made in the money markets this week betting on the £ falling?

OR..

No deal.  We walk away and start afresh.  Insanity.  A lifeboat with leaks at both ends but we voted it into existence, so we MUST set  sail...

Now... I'm alright, Jack.  I live in the soft underbelly of Britain and am reasonably comfortable - too old apparently to need to work.  But I'm lucky with that.    I do worry that those already suffering in the UK will become even more impoverished than this week's UN report on UK paupers proclaimed:

"British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous approach apparently designed to instil discipline where it is least useful, to impose a rigid order on the lives of those least capable of coping with today’s world, and elevating the goal of enforcing blind compliance over a genuine concern to improve the well-being of those at the lowest levels of British society’, said Professor Alston."

 

The UN declaring Britons live as Paupers!  Not that I'm surprised.  What surprises me is that some people seem to think this is a good time to further shaft those in our society who already are suffering terrible deprivation.

 

It's a shite state of affairs - and I think it's incumbent on MPs with a shard of compassion to ignore the Brexit vote and find another way.

 

The other way?

Either revoke Article50 to stay as we were (the sensible, best solution) or  another referendum to ensure that the turkeys are really keen on their own slaughter - or, if no more lies are thrown at them and they get to see it is not a great choice..

 

Is the fitba back on yet?

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, antrin said:

I don't disagree with any of that, saintnnextifetime...

(Oakie was quibbling over the interpretation of why I said referenda are democratically here and have no legal power wrt how MPs in Parliament may vote. )

I'm aware that some MPs are being over-sensitive to a mendacious, fuddled presentation (on both sides) of a 'problem' that should have been miraculously solved by a people's vote.  And they are scared/respectful of that mildly popular vote.

The people were promised manna from heaven, bread tomorrow, an aryan future, £350m a week to invest in the NHS etc etc

It turns out that what May has now presented as the  'choice' that thy wanted(given that the Gammons voted for it in a fuddled referendum) is:

Either her 'positive outcome' , in which the politics, communications, trade agreements, research, health services, several lifetimes of inter-relationship s with foreign nationals will be stopped until we institute new arrangements - on a basis of the EU's choosing.   There will be no further influence on what is happening in the EU but we must adhere to whatever rule changes they implement and freedom of movement will be restricted for us - if it IS for them coming here...    There seems to be some dispensation for trade in goods.  No mention of Services so the money mongers/ hedge funds etc who have already made millions from this farrago will be free to continue pillaging.  I'm sure you've been aware of those boasting how much they made in the money markets this week betting on the £ falling?

OR..

No deal.  We walk away and start afresh.  Insanity.  A lifeboat with leaks at both ends but we voted it into existence, so we MUST set  sail...

Now... I'm alright, Jack.  I live in the soft underbelly of Britain and am reasonably comfortable - too old apparently to need to work.  But I'm lucky with that.    I do worry that those already suffering in the UK will become even more impoverished than this week's UN report on UK paupers proclaimed:

"British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous approach apparently designed to instil discipline where it is least useful, to impose a rigid order on the lives of those least capable of coping with today’s world, and elevating the goal of enforcing blind compliance over a genuine concern to improve the well-being of those at the lowest levels of British society’, said Professor Alston."

 

The UN declaring Britons live as Paupers!  Not that I'm surprised.  What surprises me is that some people seem to think this is a good time to further shaft those in our society who already are suffering terrible deprivation.

 

It's a shite state of affairs - and I think it's incumbent on MPs with a shard of compassion to ignore the Brexit vote and find another way.

 

The other way?

Either revoke Article50 to stay as we were (the sensible, best solution) or  another referendum to ensure that the turkeys are really keen on their own slaughter - or, if no more lies are thrown at them and they get to see it is not a great choice..

 

Is the fitba back on yet?

 

 

 

I've never quite understood how this is a benefit to anyone other than the individual trader - for every £ gained someone else must lose a £ and it's largely our pension money they're playing with!!!???:angry::angry::angry:

As a secondary point who would have been betting on the £ rising this week?:blink::blink::blink: 

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2 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

That might well be true and l'm not going to argue with it. However , by the sounds of it MPs are willing to recognise the will of the people to leave Europe per the referendum result . . Also worth remembering that the Wilson regime had a referendum in the 7ts to ratify the agreement signed earlier by Edward Heath , to join the then EEC . At no time do l recall there being any kind of vote to be part of a European superstate. , additionally, I'm not aware of a peer reviewed scientific paper on this so God knows why oakstur is in here . .

We don't elect MPs as delegates but as representatives.

For example what about Capital Punishment for which there as been a majority in favour of (since it was suspended (sic) according to Opinion Polls :rolleyes: ) yet has been consistently defeated in Parliament,

It's not to late for MPs to vote for a better option than what is currently being offered to us and that everyone accepts is only supported by one mad cat-woman!

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46 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

We don't elect MPs as delegates but as representatives.

For example what about Capital Punishment for which there as been a majority in favour of (since it was suspended (sic) according to Opinion Polls :rolleyes: ) yet has been consistently defeated in Parliament,

It's not to late for MPs to vote for a better option than what is currently being offered to us and that everyone accepts is only supported by one mad cat-woman!

I never mentioned delegates or representatives , Bud. However , I'm aware of the type of "democracy" that they have in this country , whereby it becomes a democracy usually once every 4years or so . In-between times , it is more or less a dictatorship whereby MP's will tend to vote for party policy rather than the desires of their local electorate who vote for them  . .

I think the kind of democracy you are desiring is similar to what they operate in Switzerland , where ladies only got the vote in 1971. Maybe l should just go back to quoting Paul weller. .

As for Capital Punishment , yeah the public want their revenge. .

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2 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I never mentioned delegates or representatives , Bud. However , I'm aware of the type of "democracy" that they have in this country , whereby it becomes a democracy usually once every 4years or so . In-between times , it is more or less a dictatorship whereby MP's will tend to vote for party policy rather than the desires of their local electorate who vote for them  . .

I think the kind of democracy you are desiring is similar to what they operate in Switzerland , where ladies only got the vote in 1971. Maybe l should just go back to quoting Paul weller. .

As for Capital Punishment , yeah the public want their revenge. .

Ladies have the vote! :o

Wouldn't have happened in my day!:spud5

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1 hour ago, antrin said:

I don't disagree with any of that, saintnnextifetime...

(Oakie was quibbling over the interpretation of why I said referenda are democratically here and have no legal power wrt how MPs in Parliament may vote. )

I'm aware that some MPs are being over-sensitive to a mendacious, fuddled presentation (on both sides) of a 'problem' that should have been miraculously solved by a people's vote.  And they are scared/respectful of that mildly popular vote.

The people were promised manna from heaven, bread tomorrow, an aryan future, £350m a week to invest in the NHS etc etc

It turns out that what May has now presented as the  'choice' that thy wanted(given that the Gammons voted for it in a fuddled referendum) is:

Either her 'positive outcome' , in which the politics, communications, trade agreements, research, health services, several lifetimes of inter-relationship s with foreign nationals will be stopped until we institute new arrangements - on a basis of the EU's choosing.   There will be no further influence on what is happening in the EU but we must adhere to whatever rule changes they implement and freedom of movement will be restricted for us - if it IS for them coming here...    There seems to be some dispensation for trade in goods.  No mention of Services so the money mongers/ hedge funds etc who have already made millions from this farrago will be free to continue pillaging.  I'm sure you've been aware of those boasting how much they made in the money markets this week betting on the £ falling?

OR..

No deal.  We walk away and start afresh.  Insanity.  A lifeboat with leaks at both ends but we voted it into existence, so we MUST set  sail...

Now... I'm alright, Jack.  I live in the soft underbelly of Britain and am reasonably comfortable - too old apparently to need to work.  But I'm lucky with that.    I do worry that those already suffering in the UK will become even more impoverished than this week's UN report on UK paupers proclaimed:

"British compassion for those who are suffering has been replaced by a punitive, mean-spirited, and often callous approach apparently designed to instil discipline where it is least useful, to impose a rigid order on the lives of those least capable of coping with today’s world, and elevating the goal of enforcing blind compliance over a genuine concern to improve the well-being of those at the lowest levels of British society’, said Professor Alston."

 

The UN declaring Britons live as Paupers!  Not that I'm surprised.  What surprises me is that some people seem to think this is a good time to further shaft those in our society who already are suffering terrible deprivation.

 

It's a shite state of affairs - and I think it's incumbent on MPs with a shard of compassion to ignore the Brexit vote and find another way.

 

The other way?

Either revoke Article50 to stay as we were (the sensible, best solution) or  another referendum to ensure that the turkeys are really keen on their own slaughter - or, if no more lies are thrown at them and they get to see it is not a great choice..

 

Is the fitba back on yet?

 

 

 

I don't doubt for a minute that there is poverty in this country but that is while we are in Europe remember . There is nothing to say that it wont improve once we leave the Fourth Reich .  .

Th only country that has benefitted financially from the whole Europe experiment is Germany. .

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6 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

I don't doubt for a minute that there is poverty in this country but that is while we are in Europe remember . There is nothing to say that it wont improve once we leave the Fourth Reich .  .

Th only country that has benefitted financially from the whole Europe experiment is Germany. .

True.  There's nothing to say BREXIT won't improve the plight of the impoverished in the UK.  Apart from reality...

To say it WILL be a beneficial improvement are those such as Mogg, Farage, Davis, Johnson, Fox... need I go on?  They'll do well out of it.

Mogg, I know, has a BIG finger in a hedge fund that'll do very well out of Brexit.  Yes - he DOES believe there will be a financial benefit if he gets his way. BREXIT'S  announced, Greed is set loose...

 

The £ has fallen dramatically since Brexit was announced, set loose!  The poor are already more impoverished. With us crashing out of the EU, there will be an even more painful hit.  For them.  For most people.

I think you're not wholly correct about how Herr Merkel's land has been the sole beneficiary.... though it is doing well....

 Despite all our narking about it, the UK is a richer place for having been a member of the EU.  The Uk has benefitted immensely from it.  from first hand experience, Scotland has.  Most of the fine roads upon which I hurl tourists round the Highlands and Islands have been created/enhanced largely through EU monies flowing out to the outer rim of Europe,

If Scotland hasn't benefitted, then why is the SNP whingeing so much about not having access to EU monies if UK departs the EU?

 

 

Ach.

 

I don't really need to care that much. 

I'm alright Jack. 

 

Someone else can fight the fight.  f**k the begrudgers.

 

 

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