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Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

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1 minute ago, St.Ricky said:

St Lucy. I agree.

Your last sentence sums things up for me..Why in hell's name would any sensible person bite their nose off to spite their face?

Only for (perceived ) narrow party advantage .

Constitutionally this is a mess.

Sorry Pricky.

Quite clearly I must be wrong if you agree with me.

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Just now, stlucifer said:

Sorry Pricky.

Quite clearly I must be wrong if you agree with me.

There is That St Lucy

But not this time.

A mess. Parliament give people a say in a referendum. Rightly or wrongly people say leave. MP's cant agree around a deal. 

Option 1. Stay. Option 2. Referendum on the deal (Parliament not having carried out its role). 

I don't favour a General Election at this point. Neither of the two main parties have been open and agreed on their stance.

 

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We now need either a general election or a further referendum because we either need a government with the majority to take brexit to conclusion or for the public to have the final say now that we know what brexit means rather than the spin and lies from 2016 otherwise there is no prospect of a country united behind any deal or otherwise.

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9 minutes ago, StanleySaint said:

We now need either a general election or a further referendum because we either need a government with the majority to take brexit to conclusion or for the public to have the final say now that we know what brexit means rather than the spin and lies from 2016 otherwise there is no prospect of a country united behind any deal or otherwise.

No chance.  We are leaving one way or another , maybe not with May at the helm but we will leave .  .

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If anyone can explain how we end up with either this deal or no deal getting through a parliament arithmetically opposing them both, I'd be interested in hearing it.

Some very cocky pro-Brexiteers on here. They must be basing that cockiness on something more than sheer willpower and bravado right?

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With all  the chaos this so called Brexit has caused I'm certain the only sane course of action is to cancel the whole thing. There is nothing good about leaving under these, or any alternative, conditions.

I'm not so sure about that, can see the UK leaving leading to Scottish independence - every cloud has a silver lining!

:)

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17 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:


 


I'm not so sure about that, can see the UK leaving leading to Scottish independence - every cloud has a silver lining!

:)
 

This was the scenario I envisaged at the outset, though I was hoping for a stronger outcry during the process from the Scottish people, but now I'm afraid it's unlikely to happen as we are getting to the stage where there is a sort of Brexit and referendum fatigue. There is also the small matter of the UK Government refusing to allow an independence vote. Even if they did, the timing would be such that we would be on the outside looking into the EU. Not sure they would look upon us so kindly in those circumstances and it would take years for us to prove ourselves as far as compliance was concerned.

I want independence but right now I think it's more important to put a stop to this suicide mission the present government, or at least May, is on.

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This was the scenario I envisaged at the outset, though I was hoping for a stronger outcry during the process from the Scottish people, but now I'm afraid it's unlikely to happen as we are getting to the stage where there is a sort of Brexit and referendum fatigue. There is also the small matter of the UK Government refusing to allow an independence vote. Even if they did, the timing would be such that we would be on the outside looking into the EU. Not sure they would look upon us so kindly in those circumstances and it would take years for us to prove ourselves as far as compliance was concerned.
I want independence but right now I think it's more important to put a stop to this suicide mission the present government, or at least May, is on.


I still think it's the most likely outcome and the UK government refusing permission would be the cherry on the cake, we'd hold it anyway.

The EU would welcome us with open arms, we're basically compliant anyway and there is no way they would want to lose out on our fishing, oil or renewable energy resources. And it would be a GIRFUY to England, that would be their cherry on the cake!

Watch this space and KTF.

:)
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2 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


I still think it's the most likely outcome and the UK government refusing permission would be the cherry on the cake, we'd hold it anyway.

The EU would welcome us with open arms, we're basically compliant anyway and there is no way they would want to lose out on our fishing, oil or renewable energy resources. And it would be a GIRFUY to England, that would be their cherry on the cake!

Watch this space and KTF.

:)

 

Equally,  there is no way they want to lose all those imports the UK get . With the UK indigenous car industry all but destroyed by various parties , the biggest importer of German cars is the UK .  .

The EU is playing us to try and force us to stay in their corrupt club that has already destroyed Scotlands fishing industry.  .

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3 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:
22 hours ago, stlucifer said:
With all  the chaos this so called Brexit has caused I'm certain the only sane course of action is to cancel the whole thing. There is nothing good about leaving under these, or any alternative, conditions.


I'm not so sure about that, can see the UK leaving leading to Scottish independence - every cloud has a silver lining!

:)

Chaos ..........Brexit!  Ok .  So we have a referendum and the people vote for Brexit, but it doesn't suit some people so they campaign against it, obstruct it in any way they can and demand another vote,  these are the people that like to live in a democracy  BUT only when it suits them.

 

Not so sure about it well think of it this way, someone in a earlier thread said the Scottish Tories gave them their majority in Parliament, so how realistic do you think it is to see the Tory party, let it's 'majority' have independence?   Scotland cannot have any further votes on independence without the UK governments approval, I would say I have more chance of winning the Lottery than of either of the aforementioned happening and I don't even buy tickets.  B)

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Guest TPAFKATS
Equally,  there is no way they want to lose all those imports the UK get . With the UK indigenous car industry all but destroyed by various parties , the biggest importer of German cars is the UK .  .
The EU is playing us to try and force us to stay in their corrupt club that has already destroyed Scotlands fishing industry.  .
Scotland's fishing industry is actually 5 very rich families including, Sir Ian Wood, who own around 80% of the fishing rights.
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17 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
43 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:
Equally,  there is no way they want to lose all those imports the UK get . With the UK indigenous car industry all but destroyed by various parties , the biggest importer of German cars is the UK .  .
The EU is playing us to try and force us to stay in their corrupt club that has already destroyed Scotlands fishing industry.  .

Scotland's fishing industry is actually 5 very rich families including, Sir Ian Wood, who own around 80% of the fishing rights.

Indeed.

I don't see any less fish in the fish shops.

Not bad for a fishing industry that has ben "destroyed".

As you imply, most of the reductions in the fleet are due to bigger industrial size boats, owned buy large consortiums, outcompeting the smaller boats.

UK capitalism at its finest.

Seems it's easier to blame the EU though.

Edited by FTOF
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26 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Chaos ..........Brexit!  Ok .  So we have a referendum and the people vote for Brexit, but it doesn't suit some people so they campaign against it, obstruct it in any way they can and demand another vote,  these are the people that like to live in a democracy  BUT only when it suits them.

 

Not so sure about it well think of it this way, someone in a earlier thread said the Scottish Tories gave them their majority in Parliament, so how realistic do you think it is to see the Tory party, let it's 'majority' have independence?   Scotland cannot have any further votes on independence without the UK governments approval, I would say I have more chance of winning the Lottery than of either of the aforementioned happening and I don't even buy tickets.  B)

There are more people who voted for so called "Brexit" seeing the truth now than those who voted remain deciding they were wrong. The reason for that is they now see, 1. The lies that were spouted, and 2 the fact we are so entrenched in Europe that it would be a disaster to simply walk away. My hopes, forlorn as they may seem, is that MPs decide to do what is best for the country and revoke article 50 and the government use this as a warning that the EU MUST change and try to do this from within.

There is NO good way of leaving. This is the one thing that almost every person is beginning to realise. Those who are so entrenched that they would, as I said before, cut off their noses by just walking away are asking the UK government to embark on a journey through a maze at night with dark glasses and the hedges growing faster than they can move.

Edited by stlucifer
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3 hours ago, stlucifer said:
3 hours ago, jaybee said:

Chaos ..........Brexit!  Ok .  So we have a referendum and the people vote for Brexit, but it doesn't suit some people so they campaign against it, obstruct it in any way they can and demand another vote,  these are the people that like to live in a democracy  BUT only when it suits them.

 

Not so sure about it well think of it this way, someone in a earlier thread said the Scottish Tories gave them their majority in Parliament, so how realistic do you think it is to see the Tory party, let it's 'majority' have independence?   Scotland cannot have any further votes on independence without the UK governments approval, I would say I have more chance of winning the Lottery than of either of the aforementioned happening and I don't even buy tickets.  B)

There are more people who voted for so called "Brexit" seeing the truth now than those who voted remain deciding they were wrong. The reason for that is they now see, 1. The lies that were spouted, and 2 the fact we are so entrenched in Europe that it would be a disaster to simply walk away. My hopes, forlorn as they may seem, is that MPs decide to do what is best for the country and revoke article 50 and the government use this as a warning that the EU MUST change and try to do this from within.

There is NO good way of leaving. This is the one thing that almost every person is beginning to realise. Those who are so entrenched that they would, as I said before, cut off their noses by just walking away are asking the UK government to embark on a journey through a maze at night with dark glasses and the hedges growing faster than they can move.

I'm thinking God; Isn't it nice to converse with someone sensible, yes indeed you have a very lucid argument and succinctly put, I personally do not agree with it but (and this is the point) our democracy allows you and others to argue their case.  I can see your points with most of what you say but nevertheless I believe we need to walk away. 

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3 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:
4 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:
Equally,  there is no way they want to lose all those imports the UK get . With the UK indigenous car industry all but destroyed by various parties , the biggest importer of German cars is the UK .  .
The EU is playing us to try and force us to stay in their corrupt club that has already destroyed Scotlands fishing industry.  .

Scotland's fishing industry is actually 5 very rich families including, Sir Ian Wood, who own around 80% of the fishing rights.

Should be said more often.

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40 minutes ago, jaybee said:

I'm thinking God; Isn't it nice to converse with someone sensible, yes indeed you have a very lucid argument and succinctly put, I personally do not agree with it but (and this is the point) our democracy allows you and others to argue their case.  I can see your points with most of what you say but nevertheless I believe we need to walk away. 

We do need to walk away and we are not alone as a country in wanting to do that. 

If this is what it is like try to break 40 yrs of union what would it be like trying to break a 300yr old union.  .or are those Europeans just trying to make it bloody difficult.  .

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4 hours ago, FTOF said:

Indeed.

I don't see any less fish in the fish shops.

Not bad for a fishing industry that has ben "destroyed".

As you imply, most of the reductions in the fleet are due to bigger industrial size boats, owned buy large consortiums, outcompeting the smaller boats.

UK capitalism at its finest.

Seems it's easier to blame the EU though.

And what ? I don't see any less cars in the shops either. .

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1 hour ago, jaybee said:

I'm thinking God; Isn't it nice to converse with someone sensible, yes indeed you have a very lucid argument and succinctly put, I personally do not agree with it but (and this is the point) our democracy allows you and others to argue their case.  I can see your points with most of what you say but nevertheless I believe we need to walk away. 

The question we need to ask when  deciding to walk away is what are we walking into? 

That's the crux. There is absolutely no point in splitting from the EU unless we are as certain as we can be that what we're left with isn't worse than what we have. Most experts agree that this would lead to an absolute mess and the markets seem to concur. Every time it looks like a "no deal" exit is on the horizon the market falls and more international companies talk about moving abroad. I believe this is something which will impact on the economy in general. Prices will rise due to cross border charges, a weaker pound and more bureaucracy.

I can't see any up side to this, especially as the Irish problem will be a problem whether it be because of the backstop or a hard border.

The EU is not fit for purpose but I can't see any logical alternative to remaining as the 27 will not suddenly accede to all the UK demands to allow us to leave and prosper. 

ETA. And given the stakes, from their point of view, why should they?

Edited by stlucifer
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1 hour ago, stlucifer said:
2 hours ago, jaybee said:

I'm thinking God; Isn't it nice to converse with someone sensible, yes indeed you have a very lucid argument and succinctly put, I personally do not agree with it but (and this is the point) our democracy allows you and others to argue their case.  I can see your points with most of what you say but nevertheless I believe we need to walk away. 

The question we need to ask when  deciding to walk away is what are we walking into? 

That's the crux. There is absolutely no point in splitting from the EU unless we are as certain as we can be that what we're left with isn't worse than what we have. Most experts agree that this would lead to an absolute mess and the markets seem to concur. Every time it looks like a "no deal" exit is on the horizon the market falls and more international companies talk about moving abroad. I believe this is something which will impact on the economy in general. Prices will rise due to cross border charges, a weaker pound and more bureaucracy.

I can't see any up side to this, especially as the Irish problem will be a problem whether it be because of the backstop or a hard border.

The EU is not fit for purpose but I can't see any logical alternative to remaining as the 27 will not suddenly accede to all the UK demands to allow us to leave and prosper. 

ETA. And given the stakes, from their point of view, why should they?

Honestly I am not TRYING to be a pedant but we have already voted to go, end of.  Unless of course we favour the 'end of' democracy and the 'will of the people' is ignored.

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47 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Honestly I am not TRYING to be a pedant but we have already voted to go, end of.  Unless of course we favour the 'end of' democracy and the 'will of the people' is ignored.

I don't believe anything you suggests makes you a pedant. Just a person with strong  views who is articulate enough to relay them.

BUT. It was a referendum. It wasn't binding. We elect a Government to govern. If this was to be the norm what next? Tax rises? Let's ask the people. More money for the health service? Better get the ballot papers out again.

AND. We had a referendum without the people actually knowing what the facts were so we were able to be lied to. 

What sort of divorce did we vote for?

Immigration to be curbed. Well, now we know it would make an insignificant difference. We will have no more real control of our borders without a hard border in Ireland and that isn't going to happen. EU don't want it. UK don't want it. Anyway. We actually need immigrants to fill a void. It would take years to train the skilled people to do the work many do. Migrant workers are common throughout Europe and the world.

More money going to the health service. Now we know that was a complete fabrication. Johnson and co lying through their teeth. 

So, IF you believe in referendum driven politics, a new referendum would be required now we know the facts, at the very least.

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The latest wheeze seems to centre around the idea of Westminster holding a series of debates which would be indicitive only covering various options on which MP's would vote.  These would include The Current Deal,  NoDeal,  People's Vote etc.  The idea put forward suggests that Westminster would be advising the government on the way forward without causing constitutional chaos. 

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11 hours ago, jaybee said:

Honestly I am not TRYING to be a pedant but we have already voted to go, end of.  Unless of course we favour the 'end of' democracy and the 'will of the people' is ignored.

Scotland and Northern Ireland voted to remain suppose that does not matter as we are part of the Union. What England wants England gets. As pointed out above the facts were not on the table at the referendum.  The next big crash is just around the corner financial experts are warning , what a great time to leave the EU to the world market. It should not be forgotten that the refarendom came about not because the people wanted it, it was to stop the anti Europeans within the Tory party which has now back fired BIG TIME. 

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12 hours ago, stlucifer said:

 

Immigration to be curbed. Well, now we know it would make an insignificant difference. We will have no more real control of our borders without a hard border in Ireland and that isn't going to happen. EU don't want it. UK don't want it. Anyway. We actually need immigrants to fill a void. It would take years to train the skilled people to do the work many do. Migrant workers are common throughout Europe and the world.

 

Completely agree with you stlucifer.

It pisses me off that "immigration" had become such a negative term throughout the Brexit campaigning.  The term was hi-jacked by right-wing Tories, UKIP, BNP, etc, to imply that every immigrant to this country is a thieving benefits cheat from Eastern Europe. Disgusting IMO.

As well as requiring their specific skills and talents we need working-age (tax paying) immigrants in the UK to counter the effects of our own ageing population. We now have so many surviving "baby boomers" (like me) that the costs of running the NHS, old-age care support, pensions, etc, have become an intolerable burden for the younger working population to support.

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15 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

And what ? I don't see any less cars in the shops either. .

Because we import millions of cars from other countries.

We don't import any fish, other than non-native species. 

That's verging on miraculous for a "*destroyed" industry, given that we seem to be satisfying the UK's demand.

How easy is this?

*destroy

/dɪˈstrɔɪ/  
verb
past tense: destroyed; past participle: destroyed
  1. end the existence of (something) by damaging or attacking it

 

 

Edited by FTOF
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