Jump to content

Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

Recommended Posts

Guest TPAFKATS
How did these millionaires make their money in the first place?

How did they force others to give up their share of the fishing rights?

My comment about starting own businesses was not specific to fishing.

Nobody is stopping anyone becoming a millionaire.

You certainly don't need money either. I have started several businesses in my time and spent almost nothing on any of them. I was able to sustain my family on all of them. You are wrong about this.

Yeah but we are talking specifically about fishing in relation to brexit, not about you or starting up a business.

So I'm not wrong. At worst I have a perception that is different to yours. I suppose that's to be expected as I am keeping to the subject.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


2 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
48 minutes ago, oaksoft said:
How did these millionaires make their money in the first place?
How did they force others to give up their share of the fishing rights?
My comment about starting own businesses was not specific to fishing.
Nobody is stopping anyone becoming a millionaire.
You certainly don't need money either. I have started several businesses in my time and spent almost nothing on any of them. I was able to sustain my family on all of them. You are wrong about this.

Yeah but we are talking about fishing in relation to brexit.

And you brought the subject of 5 millionaire families up in the first place, making out that the previous fishing companies were forced to sell up to the big bad millionaires. I'm merely illustrating that it's more complicated than that. As an aside, this culture of blaming rich people for the ills of everyone else is why we are not ready to for independence yet in Scotland.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:


 

 


You sure about that?

Nope, it's a partial veto on some important things but not all.

I think the point still stands though. The UK has been a willing and influential participant in this institution.

 

Edited by oaksoft
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS
And you brought the subject of 5 millionaire families up in the first place, making out that the previous fishing companies were forced to sell up to the big bad millionaires. I'm merely illustrating that it's more complicated than that. As an aside, this culture of blaming rich people for the ills of everyone else is why we are not ready to for independence yet in Scotland.
Wow, you've done it again - quoted one sentence of my post. And then claimed I said something when I didn't. You would be outraged if this had been done to you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Is this the same EU where we currently have a veto on any rule change?

If these rules have been brought in, they could only have done so with the blessing of our country. Are you really unaware of this?

One of the key ones Britain used to great effect was when the EU wanted to increase tariffs on Chinese imported steel, knowing the large production there was a risk to steel industries across the EU.  Only one member blocked this - Britain, at a time where David Cameron was continually meeting up with the Chinese leader. What happened next? Steel industries collapsed in the UK. Well done Mr Cameron, well done indeed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

How did these millionaires make their money in the first place?

How did they force others to give up their share of the fishing rights?

My comment about starting own businesses was not specific to fishing.

Nobody is stopping anyone becoming a millionaire.

You certainly don't need money either. I have started several businesses in my time and spent almost nothing on any of them. I was able to sustain my family on all of them. You are wrong about this.

Fishing is an industry where large amounts of capital have to be invested in ever larger vessels and as result also on dockside facilities in order to be competitive.

The industry has consolidated in order to meet the challenges involved. Hence the Millionaire owners with access to capital.

Pretty typical development cycle.

By comparison, service businesses require little in the way of capital at start up( depending on the plans for employee growth)

Typically these are staryed up based on the skills and contacts of the founders who secure one or more contracts to fund their move into self employment and business without the need for capital injection.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

No fortune is self made?

Really?

How do you know that?

How do you know they are not making a fair contribution back to society and what represents "fair" anyway?

Employing people who would otherwise lack the guile to make enough money to survive is a pretty decent way to make a contribution to society. I know that when I was an employee, I could afford a great standard of living thanks to my job compared to what I would have had if I'd been running my own business in those days. What drives your lack of gratitude to those who employ or employed you?

Genuinely interested.

Right back atya - nobody goes out into the wilderness anymore to dig up a fortune, show me  a contemporary billionaire who could have made that money without all of the benefits of  modern society?

Gratitude! :lol: I work for pay and have no problems because I am competent,  it's a symbiotic relationship, and I'm not tugging my forelock :oohlala for anyone. Your sneering  just because I don't choose to do what you do is arrogant and despicable.

 

**************************

 

On a different note I've just seen Rees-Mogg on TV saying that if there is a second EuroRef then there is no valid argument to prevent a second IndyRef - take that Ms. Davidson! :boxing

Edited by Bud the Baker
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
52 minutes ago, oaksoft said:
And you brought the subject of 5 millionaire families up in the first place, making out that the previous fishing companies were forced to sell up to the big bad millionaires. I'm merely illustrating that it's more complicated than that. As an aside, this culture of blaming rich people for the ills of everyone else is why we are not ready to for independence yet in Scotland.

Wow, you've done it again - quoted one sentence of my post. And then claimed I said something when I didn't. You would be outraged if this had been done to you.

You really should do something about that massive chip on your shoulder.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Fishing is an industry where large amounts of capital have to be invested in ever larger vessels and as result also on dockside facilities in order to be competitive.

The industry has consolidated in order to meet the challenges involved. Hence the Millionaire owners with access to capital.

Pretty typical development cycle.

By comparison, service businesses require little in the way of capital at start up( depending on the plans for employee growth)

Typically these are staryed up based on the skills and contacts of the founders who secure one or more contracts to fund their move into self employment and business without the need for capital injection.

 

That first bit in bold and underlined. Why? Why are ever larger vessels required? There is no reason for that at all.

The industry has consolidated because 5 rich families offered large enough sums of money to the existing businesses that they were willing to happily sell up to the highest bidder.

You are correct that service businesses typically require little in the way of capital at start up but this is not always true. The term "start up" specifically refers to companies with fast growth and high capital investment. When I was yonger we called this "get rich quick". This is a really terrible way to run a business IMO. More often than not they result in a total financial collapse of the company because they run out of cash.

Some do manage to secure contracts prior to starting their businesses but that is not the case for the vast majority of businesses I am talking about.

My point is that it is easier to start a business than TPAK thingy is making out. Of course it is harder to make it actually work which was my point when he was making disparaging comments about millionaires.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Right back atya - nobody goes out into the wilderness anymore to dig up a fortune, show me  a contemporary billionaire who could have made that money without all of the benefits of  modern society?

Gratitude! :lol: I work for pay and have no problems because I am competent,  it's a symbiotic relationship, and I'm not tugging my forelock :oohlala for anyone. Your sneering  just because I don't choose to do what you do is arrogant and despicable.

 

**************************

 

On a different note I've just seen Rees-Mogg on TV saying that if there is a second EuroRef then there is no valid argument to prevent a second IndyRef - take that Ms. Davidson! :boxing

Oh I am not sneering at anyone. Nice sneering response BTW. :lol:

Nobody is asking you to tug your forelock and nobody is asking you to do what I do but you are deeply disrespectful of the difficulties which had to be overcome for you to be offered that job you are in. You have no appreciation of exactly how fortunate you are that other men created that opportunity for you because you sure as hell are not capable of doing it yourself. You should always take the time to educate yourself on how you came to have the lifestyle you have. It's very sobering.

I have no idea why you have brought up billionaires. We were talking about millionaires. Don't deflect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS



 
That first bit in bold and underlined. Why? Why are ever larger vessels required? There is no reason for that at all.
The industry has consolidated because 5 rich families offered large enough sums of money to the existing businesses that they were willing to happily sell up to the highest bidder.
You are correct that service businesses typically require little in the way of capital at start up but this is not always true. The term "start up" specifically refers to companies with fast growth and high capital investment. When I was yonger we called this "get rich quick". This is a really terrible way to run a business IMO. More often than not they result in a total financial collapse of the company because they run out of cash.
Some do manage to secure contracts prior to starting their businesses but that is not the case for the vast majority of businesses I am talking about.
My point is that it is easier to start a business than TPAK thingy is making out. Of course it is harder to make it actually work which was my point when he was making disparaging comments about millionaires.

The first few sentences show you have little understanding of the industry being discussed.
The rest of the post is flannel to distract from the subject being discussed.
Oh and can you point out the disparaging comments about millionaires?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Oh I am not sneering at anyone. Nice sneering response BTW. :lol:

Nobody is asking you to tug your forelock and nobody is asking you to do what I do but you are deeply disrespectful of the difficulties which had to be overcome for you to be offered that job you are in. You have no appreciation of exactly how fortunate you are that other men created that opportunity for you because you sure as hell are not capable of doing it yourself. You should always take the time to educate yourself on how you came to have the lifestyle you have. It's very sobering.

I have no idea why you have brought up billionaires. We were talking about millionaires. Don't deflect.

One word from your previous post "Gratitude" disproves that.

Billionaires is not a deflection, we were already talking about the "5 millionaire fishing families" so it's not coming out of the blue - my point is who makes a fortune today without the benefit of society? That is the third time I've asked this question, so far I've had two "no answers" - so who's deflecting?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest TPAFKATS
Really? I definitely wouldn't say having a chip on your shoulder beat actual knowledge of what is being discussed but if that's your view......
Funny.
Probably the best post you've made in a while.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

 

That first bit in bold and underlined. Why? Why are ever larger vessels required? There is no reason for that at all.

The industry has consolidated because 5 rich families offered large enough sums of money to the existing businesses that they were willing to happily sell up to the highest bidder.

You are correct that service businesses typically require little in the way of capital at start up but this is not always true. The term "start up" specifically refers to companies with fast growth and high capital investment. When I was yonger we called this "get rich quick". This is a really terrible way to run a business IMO. More often than not they result in a total financial collapse of the company because they run out of cash.

Some do manage to secure contracts prior to starting their businesses but that is not the case for the vast majority of businesses I am talking about.

My point is that it is easier to start a business than TPAK thingy is making out. Of course it is harder to make it actually work which was my point when he was making disparaging comments about millionaires.

Normal Economies of scale Okay.  Also we now fish far from the North Sea and land fish outside  the EU. 

Around 60 years ago I visited a little fishing village in Donegal. They operated a number of fishing boats which Landed fish. A fish factory was based there. 

The position now is that this is the home port for the largest fish processing vessel in the world.  It now operates off the south East Coast of Africa. 

The industry has changed enormously and capital injected to obtain economies of scale. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:
2 hours ago, St.Ricky said:
Corbyn has tabled a Motion of No Confidence in the Government.

It's only a motion of no confidence in May as PM. Totally symbolic and meaningless

Typical of him to react without getting facts. (Should have asked the Ambassador).

As for the call for No confidence, I would say it's a case of making the tories who voted against May in their recent secret ballot to put their faces to the vote or make their party look bloody foolish and weak by now backing her.

It's really the only thing Corbyn could do as, if he went for a cote of no confidence in the government now I doubt the MPS on the opposite side of the house would pick this time of year to become the turkeys who voted for Christmas. NOR would the  DUP vote away what little influence they have.

Edited by stlucifer
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, St.Ricky said:

Normal Economies of scale Okay.  Also we now fish far from the North Sea and land fish outside  the EU. 

Around 60 years ago I visited a little fishing village in Donegal. They operated a number of fishing boats which Landed fish. A fish factory was based there. 

The position now is that this is the home port for the largest fish processing vessel in the world.  It now operates off the south East Coast of Africa. 

The industry has changed enormously and capital injected to obtain economies of scale. 

 

Yeah that's not really answering my question.

What is stopping Joe Bloggs, who has operated for decades as a fishing company simply staying the same size?

Why does he HAVE to increase the size of his boats? He could remain the same size.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/15/2018 at 12:57 PM, saintnextlifetime said:

Equally,  there is no way they want to lose all those imports the UK get . With the UK indigenous car industry all but destroyed by various parties , the biggest importer of German cars is the UK .  .

The EU is playing us to try and force us to stay in their corrupt club that has already destroyed Scotlands fishing industry.  .

What do you understand to be "Scotlands fishing industry" ?

 

If you mean the white fish and pelagic fisheries, these guys have never had it so good. Greedy bastards who's boats have made them millionaires and if it weren't for EU quotas they would press ahead with bigger more advanced boats that would allow them to catch every fish in the sea if they could get away with it. There is no consumer clamour for more fish, it would be industrial fishing with the catch processed into fertiliser or fish farm food !

The shellfish industry on the other hand will be CRIPPLED by Brexit. They rely on free trade with the EU who buy nearly all their catch, there is next to no UK market for it. 

Christ knows where your knowledge of the industry is coming from, sound like the "Scottish" Daily Mail / Express.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Yeah that's not really answering my question.

What is stopping Joe Bloggs, who has operated for decades as a fishing company simply staying the same size?

Why does he HAVE to increase the size of his boats? He could remain the same size.

In a word greed.

Do you think the bleating Peterhead trawler owners want Brexit and what they see as an end to them being told what they can and can't catch to stay where they are financially ?. They catch their quota easily enough as it stands but they want to catch more despite their being no demand for it other than as an industrial commodity. To do that they either have to stay the same size but work harder or they will advance their operations technologically meaning bigger more efficient boats.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have to agree with Ayrshire on this.  I regularly visit the norht east and a drive round Peterhead Harbour opens your eyes to a lot of things, not least the trawlers that cost between £6M and £7M each. You don't buy these struggling to get by!  Another giveaway is to visit the Brewdog Tap in Ellon and see the development in less than 10 years.  Google maps shows it in 2016 and it's even bigger now.  Co-incidently, at least one of the dads is a fisherman so I guess that helps!

Edited by rabuddies
Wireless keyboard low battery.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, FTOF said:

The reason why we have to import lobster and cod, is because there aren't sufficient numbers of lobster or cod in our waters due to them having been overfished for decades.

Cod in particular saw an 84% drop in stocks from the '70's to 2006. The population is recovering and is classed as sustainable now. However, the numbers are not sufficient to supply the UK's obsession with it.

Salmon is largely farmed, so that's got absolutely nothing to do with our fishing fleet.

I'll admit I should have been more detailed regarding my initial comment.

I should have said, that we don't import fish unless it can't be supplied from our own stocks in our waters or is a non-native species.

These imports are actually dropping.

Maybe rising fish stocks, due to excellent EU conservation measures, and the fact that we have the second largest fishing fleet by capacity in the EU , are making an impact.

 

The UK does import lobster but not really for the reasons you give. The imported Canadian / US lobster comes mostly as a processed or part processed product. It's these lobsters you see frozen in supermarkets and as tiny wee lobster tails which you see in Morrison's fish counter for a scandalous £6. This isn't due to a lack of native UK lobsters. Nearly all the European demand for fresh live lobster is from the continent primarily Spain and France. It's almost impossible for the European live lobster market to be supplied from North America. Logistically impossible and cost prohibitive. So we supply the European live market while our comparative tiny  demand is satisfied via cheaper processed imports. Its an unusual, almost unique circumstance. As for Scottish lobster stocks they are recovering well, it's a sustainable fishery with a level of demand from Europe such that it still can command a premium price whilst conservation (V notching of pregnant females now developed into a more widespread return alive policy) is well observed on the whole with no "by catch" and undersized lobsters always returned alive. When my family were fishing commercially and I was young (40 years ago) I well remember summers on the boat where every lobster was kept and "smalls" we're regularly kept for personal consumption. Thankfully education and self policing won the day but it has taken a long time !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, stlucifer said:

 

Typical of him to react without getting facts. (Should have asked the Ambassador).

As for the call for No confidence, I would say it's a case of making the tories who voted against May in their recent secret ballot to put their faces to the vote or make their party look bloody foolish and weak by now backing her.

It's really the only thing Corbyn could do as, if he went for a cote of no confidence in the government now I doubt the MPS on the opposite side of the house would pick this time of year to become the turkeys who voted for Christmas. NOR would the  DUP vote away what little influence they have.

Thank you Lucy. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...