Brexit Negotiations

[Ayrshire Saints]

4 hours ago, WeeBud said:

I agree with the Cod FTOF but not with the lobsters. I used to fish for lobsters, brown crab and velvet crab in the mid-90's and 95% of our catch was sold to France, Spain and Portugal purely and simply because we got a better price from those markets. Huge vivier lorries used to come from Europe at least once a week to Oban to pick up our, and others, catch. Lobsters are still plentiful just now going by the catches landed this year.

We still have a few pots in the summer and lobsters are indeed at good stock levels. The velvet fishery explosion in the 80s and 90s helped a lot (smaller pots simply couldn't catch the biggest breeding lobsters). Still get a great Buzz hauling a pot not knowing what it might contain. One of life's little treasurers on a fine summers evening.

[saintnextlifetime]

23 hours ago, FTOF said:

Grimm.com?

Reality.net!

[Bud the Baker]

I understand Corbyn's dilemna (sp?) he doesn't want to call a full VoNC while the DUP are still awaiting TMs fantasy concessions on "The Backstop" but I think he'd have been better to have one and call out the DUP on the likelihood of these concessions actually happening - If the concessions don't occur (and they won't) Corbyn loses nothing and can call for another VoNC saying "told you so".

 

[FTOF]

Heard the guy in charge of Shetland's fish market on radio Scotland new on the way home today.

As the last fish market of the year was completed on Tuesday morning the grand total of demersal landings came to just over 436,000 boxes, an increase of over eight per cent on 2017’s figures, and twice as much as in 2007.The market now brings in more boxes than England, Wales and NI combined and is the second largest UK market after Peterhead.

Expectations of further growth are high within the industry with two new fish markets in Lerwick and Scalloway being built while the political wrangling over Brexit continues.

The fishing fleet is also spending 40-50 million on new pelagic fishing boats.

Destroyed you say?

Edited December 18, 2018 by FTOF

[stlucifer]

3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

That is ego talking. Pure and simple.

He knew he didn't have the arithmetic to win a VONC in the government and so he should have waited until he did.

What he has done is make himself look even more foolish than May.

What he has done is put it out there. IF he got the go ahead he would not have looked foolish as the spotlight would have been on the Conservative two faced. It now depends on the media spin. Many people will just look at it as Corbyn doing something. Time will tell if this course of action was the right one but I repeat, he would have looked just as foolish to do nothing. Perhaps damned if he did, damned if he didn't. And as to looking more foolish than May. I think that might be a close run race.

I do agree with BudtheBaker inasmuch as he could have called the DUP out but it's doubtful that they would have taken the chance of losing what they perceive as a position of power. They are still living in cloud cuckoo land expecting some magical solution to the backstop. It may even be that Corbyn WILL follow this VONC in May with the VONC in the government. 

[melmac]

Perhaps it's time for Labour to introduce a Bill seeking to amend Treason legislation that would introduce a definition of ‘economic treason’, which could be applied retrospectively, being “actions that result in reputational damage for the country, an unacceptable economic cost, or a loss of economic sovereignty for the State.”
 

Ultimately, this is what May and the Conservatives are seeking to do to the Country.

[oaksoft]

40 minutes ago, melmac said:

Perhaps it's time for Labour to introduce a Bill seeking to amend Treason legislation that would introduce a definition of ‘economic treason’, which could be applied retrospectively, being “actions that result in reputational damage for the country, an unacceptable economic cost, or a loss of economic sovereignty for the State.”
 

Ultimately, this is what May and the Conservatives are seeking to do to the Country.

If you believe Brexit will do this to the countrhy, you'd have to extend that punishment to all of the 17.5 million or whatever who voted for it.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Corbyn appears to have united the ERG, DUP and other tory rebels behind May while not actually calling a VoNC in the government.
Tactical genius that reminds me of Tommy Craig.

[stlucifer]

30 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

If you believe Brexit will do this to the countrhy, you'd have to extend that punishment to all of the 17.5 million or whatever who voted for it.

Sounds like a good idea. We could celebrate the same way people are celebrating the demise of the hunter.

[WeeBud]

17 hours ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

We still have a few pots in the summer and lobsters are indeed at good stock levels. The velvet fishery explosion in the 80s and 90s helped a lot (smaller pots simply couldn't catch the biggest breeding lobsters). Still get a great Buzz hauling a pot not knowing what it might contain. One of life's little treasurers on a fine summers evening.

Very similar AS, we are lucky enough to have a cottage on Tiree and keep a boat up there. In the morning we'll head out to "The Banks" and fish for bait (normally Mackerel or Lythe) and then head back in to lift the pots and see what's come in for a feed. Off the north side of the island we'll occasionally get Conger Eels in the pots and on the south side Dogfish and the occasional Octopus.

Strangely when I'm out on the boat I never give one moments thought to Brexit!!!

 

[saintnextlifetime]

16 hours ago, melmac said:

Perhaps it's time for Labour to introduce a Bill seeking to amend Treason legislation that would introduce a definition of ‘economic treason’, which could be applied retrospectively, being “actions that result in reputational damage for the country, an unacceptable economic cost, or a loss of economic sovereignty for the State.”
 

Ultimately, this is what May and the Conservatives are seeking to do to the Country.

Merkel has already stated that European nation states need to surrender their sovereignty to Berlin , eh no l meant Brussels.   

[saintnextlifetime]

On 12/17/2018 at 10:27 PM, Ayrshire Saints said:

What do you understand to be "Scotlands fishing industry" ?

 

If you mean the white fish and pelagic fisheries, these guys have never had it so good. Greedy bastards who's boats have made them millionaires and if it weren't for EU quotas they would press ahead with bigger more advanced boats that would allow them to catch every fish in the sea if they could get away with it. There is no consumer clamour for more fish, it would be industrial fishing with the catch processed into fertiliser or fish farm food !

The shellfish industry on the other hand will be CRIPPLED by Brexit. They rely on free trade with the EU who buy nearly all their catch, there is next to no UK market for it. 

Christ knows where your knowledge of the industry is coming from, sound like the "Scottish" Daily Mail / Express.

 

Aye those pesky Europeans, you just know they will stop eating oor shellfish as soon as we leave. .baisturs 

[jaybee]

On 12/18/2018 at 10:17 AM, The Original 59er said:

All of this was either out of Corbyn's hands or, in the case of a vote of no confidence in the Government, a no win situation so, whether he supported stay or leave, his options were very limited. It's ok for the Libdems or SNP to call for a no confidence vote that would be forced on the government but the know Labour won't react so it's easy for them to demand it. They also know such a vote would end in failure for the opposition so making Labour look weak is a win, win for them.

Both large parties are in a pickle here and it's us, joe public, that'll ultimately suffer. This is why I think a new vote for the people is the best way forward. If those who voted leave were confident of a repeat then they would not be fighting so hard against it when our parliament cannot agree on the strategy.

This call for a new vote smacks of 'we didn't get our way first time. so we'll just keep having more votes until we win.  And THEN of course it will be final , no more votes the Nation has decided. We live in a Democracy, supposedly; so suck it up.

[melmac]

16 hours ago, oaksoft said:

If you believe Brexit will do this to the countrhy, you'd have to extend that punishment to all of the 17.5 million or whatever who voted for it.

That was all just a ruse, they ejits didn't know what they were voting for. They would have eaten shit on a stick if you told them it was a toffee apple.

[oaksoft]

I wonder if all the people saying that a second referendum is only right now that we have the "actual facts", would have felt the same if the country had decided on independence in 2014.

Are we setting a precedent here?

Edited December 19, 2018 by oaksoft

[Guest TPAFKATS]

No one is proposing a second referendum as least not the same referendum.
Its a referendum of whatever parliament agrees as the terms of leaving.

[oaksoft]

Just now, TPAFKATS said:

No one is proposing a second referendum as least not the same referendum.
Its a referendum of whatever parliament agrees as the terms of leaving.

Would you support this for IndyRef2 ?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Would you support this for IndyRef2 ?

I'd rather have the same question -
Should Scotland be an independent country?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Oh ffs corbyn.

[stlucifer]

May has decided the only chance she has of getting more of her side to back HER deal is to blackmail them. In fact she tried using the same tactics on the other sides as well. She is trying to dictate to parliament. That is NOT democracy. All those saying the referendum was the end of it should surely see that it was only the beginning. If you are told outright lies and fear used against you as a weapon to make you vote a particular way and it is proven to be lies then surely those that were duped have a right to recast their vote. IF they are steadfast in their beliefs then the only variables will be those who didn't vote and those who couldn't. The former may be many who thought the outcome a formality and some may say, "Hell mend them". The latter have more of a right to decide than us old fogies as it is they who will be left to pick up the pieces. If the result remains leave then there is no doubts as people have now been informed of the consequences and accept them.

To turn it on it's head I think those who voted leave know for a fact the outcome would be vastly different if asked again. This is the real reason for them shouting no. After all. If they thought it would end the same or even more emphatic for leave then the uproar would not be so loud. 

 

[Wendy Saintss]

Would you support this for IndyRef2 ?

 

There is plenty of discussion around whether remain should be an option in a second referendum.

 

Some folk on this forum just don’t keep up with the news.

 

As for indyref2, question should either be:

 

Should Scotland remain part of the UK with a yes / no answer or a remain / leave answer

 

Indeyref2 won’t ever happen though [emoji106]

 

 

[jaybee]

13 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

May has decided the only chance she has of getting more of her side to back HER deal is to blackmail them. In fact she tried using the same tactics on the other sides as well. She is trying to dictate to parliament. That is NOT democracy. All those saying the referendum was the end of it should surely see that it was only the beginning. If you are told outright lies and fear used against you as a weapon to make you vote a particular way and it is proven to be lies then surely those that were duped have a right to recast their vote. IF they are steadfast in their beliefs then the only variables will be those who didn't vote and those who couldn't. The former may be many who thought the outcome a formality and some may say, "Hell mend them". The latter have more of a right to decide than us old fogies as it is they who will be left to pick up the pieces. If the result remains leave then there is no doubts as people have now been informed of the consequences and accept them.

To turn it on it's head I think those who voted leave know for a fact the outcome would be vastly different if asked again. This is the real reason for them shouting no. After all. If they thought it would end the same or even more emphatic for leave then the uproar would not be so loud. 

A very cogent argument NOT, May (of whom I am not a fan) stated quite clearly that we would leave with a no deal if Parliament could not agree to back her,

What Europe think I couldn't give two monkeys about (who by the way, jointly have a higher IQ that all the thieves in Brussels).

What is NOT democracy is Parliament standing in the way of a democratic vote specifically to determine whether or not we stayed in Europe.  Parliament does NOT have the remit of deciding that the public don't know their arse from their elbow, they are there as functionaries of the people nothing else.

This was intended as a one of vote to decide the UK's future path, the public decided. End off

The rest is simply; if I knew, you knew, he knew, we all knew,  BUGGER all.

[jaybee]

On 12/18/2018 at 1:19 PM, St.Ricky said:

SNP granted permission to lead a 3 hour debate on Brexit. 

To what end may I ask, an irreverent Party that couldn't organise a decent piss up in a Brewery discussing something that as a Party; or as a Nation we can have no impact on, I really don't know who is worse, we Alex (the con man) or current incumbent (the con woman).

[jaybee]

6 hours ago, melmac said:

22 hours ago, oaksoft said:

If you believe Brexit will do this to the countrhy, you'd have to extend that punishment to all of the 17.5 million or whatever who voted for it.

That was all just a ruse, they ejits didn't know what they were voting for. They would have eaten shit on a stick if you told them it was a toffee apple.

Damn; I thought it tasted off......... 

[stlucifer]

20 minutes ago, jaybee said:

A very cogent argument NOT, May (of whom I am not a fan) stated quite clearly that we would leave with a no deal if Parliament could not agree to back her,

What Europe think I couldn't give two monkeys about (who by the way, jointly have a higher IQ that all the thieves in Brussels).

What is NOT democracy is Parliament standing in the way of a democratic vote specifically to determine whether or not we stayed in Europe.  Parliament does NOT have the remit of deciding that the public don't know their arse from their elbow, they are there as functionaries of the people nothing else.

This was intended as a one of vote to decide the UK's future path, the public decided. End off

The rest is simply; if I knew, you knew, he knew, we all knew,  BUGGER all.

The first sentence IS the blackmail. She knows everyone with any sense knows a no deal exit would be disastrous. The very mention of it by this government has started businesses  revising their forward planning. And not in a good way.

I never mentioned what Europe thought as they are looking after their collective interest. Britain needs to look after Britain's interest. That means looking at the best deal which is neither May's deal or no deal. If it is leave then other options must be looked at including remaining in the custom's union with all that entails. OR, parliament deciding there is no good way to leave and rescinding A50. OR, deciding there is no overall majority for any of the options and deciding the people need to be once more consulted. That is more democratic than one person saying, "It's my deal or I'll financially cripple Britain".

Parliament is NOT standing in the way of anything. They are trying to decide on the best deal. This government are stopping them from making an informed decision because one person, May, is trying to cling to power for a few extra months. 

The vote was either leave or stay. It was driven by those, primarily on the leave bus, (remember that one?), telling lies. The public did not decide on a situation which everyone now knows will not bring millions to the health service. In fact this government is now ringfencing billions to fund a deal which will make us poorer. Where do you think that money is taken from?

It wasn't, "I knew, you knew, he knew, we all knew. It was completely the opposite. It is all about what we DIDN'T know. That is Neither simple nor irrelevant.

Edited December 19, 2018 by stlucifer