Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Representing your constituents is not the same thing as blindly agreeing with them when the UK as a whole voted Leave. He is supporting the decision taken by the UK voters in a free referendum. You DON'T think that is a democracy in action?You think blindly agreeing with the government just because it's your party, despite the mounting evidence of both electoral law breaches and the self harm that gov policy is inflicting on the country while not representing the majority of those you are elected to represent is democracy in action? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Yeah totally considering the way Labour will vote it down where many of their constituents voted Leave ....................Probably, I wasn't being party political with my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougJamie Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Democracy in action. Leave won. You really need to accept this. Absoloutely , dont know what all the fuss is about............. Just need all the MPs to support the PMs bill and Democracy triumphs Its like when you asked your mummy for an ice cream as she says yes but it will have to be a Raspberry Ripple , you wanted chocolate, as you hate Raspberries however its still an ice cream and thats what you asked for, Edited January 8, 2019 by DougJamie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 35 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Representing your constituents is not the same thing as blindly agreeing with them when the UK as a whole voted Leave. He is supporting the decision taken by the UK voters in a free referendum. You DON'T think that is a democracy in action? I asked a question. I didn't put forward an opinion. However. My feeling is that DC abdicated his responsibility by setting up the referendum. This should have been dealt with in Westminster. It wasn't. We now have the ridiculous position that the PM (from the same party as DC) still cannot find the support of her party. Now that is democracy in Inaction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said: You think blindly agreeing with the government just because it's your party, despite the mounting evidence of both electoral law breaches and the self harm that gov policy is inflicting on the country while not representing the majority of those you are elected to represent is democracy in action? That bit in bold is your opinion not a fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
antrin Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, oaksoft said: That bit in bold is your opinion not a fact. I think the plummet of the £ since the self-inflicted decision to hold a badly drawn referendum, (then to pay attention to its asinine result) HAS to be seen as actual self-harm by a government on its people rather opinion that it may be. Factually, everything is costing more, jobs have departed... what would you need as evidence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 8, 2019 Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, antrin said: I think the plummet of the £ since the self-inflicted decision to hold a badly drawn referendum, (then to pay attention to its asinine result) HAS to be seen as actual self-harm by a government on its people rather opinion that it may be. Factually, everything is costing more, jobs have departed... what would you need as evidence? Not everything is costing more. My total expenditure has remained static or gone down over the last few years. Jobs always fluctuate. Come back next months and they will have moved again. We are in a period of flux. That is a side effect of any change. If flux is your definition of self harm then you are going to be able to claim you are right every minute of every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 8, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2019 Quote Theresa May suffers Commons defeat over no-deal Brexit MPs back amendment to finance bill to curb government powers in event of no deal https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/08/theresa-may-suffers-commons-defeat-over-no-deal-brexit ******************** There's a bit of debate as to what practical effect this vote has but the general consensus is that there is a cross party grouping in parliament unwilling to accept a No-Deal Brexit and that this group comprises the majority of MPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 15 hours ago, oaksoft said: Representing your constituents is not the same thing as blindly agreeing with them when the UK as a whole voted Leave. He is supporting the decision taken by the UK voters in a free referendum. You DON'T think that is a democracy in action? Representing your constituents is all about looking into the effects of any outcome and making a conscious decision on what is best. Quite clearly May's deal is seen by most MPS as a bad deal and no deal is worse. Many MPs, as well as a groundswell in the country, are coming to the conclusion that something other than those choices is needed. The referendum was badly worded, badly run and filled with lies and, as it turned out, financed on the leave side, dubiously to say the least. Hardly free in that sense. In that referendum you were only allowed a choice between yes or no. A knee jerk option. Not on how. If you really believe in democracy, then you surely must believe that people need to be given the facts to be allowed to make an informed decision. Not the lies that were plastered, in the main, on the side of buses and from the mouths of so called "Brexiteers". Oh how I hate that term. If you find out you've been conned you have the right to have the opportunity to see this rectified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original 59er Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 6 hours ago, stlucifer said: Representing your constituents is all about looking into the effects of any outcome and making a conscious decision on what is best. Quite clearly May's deal is seen by most MPS as a bad deal and no deal is worse. Many MPs, as well as a groundswell in the country, are coming to the conclusion that something other than those choices is needed. The referendum was badly worded, badly run and filled with lies and, as it turned out, financed on the leave side, dubiously to say the least. Hardly free in that sense. In that referendum you were only allowed a choice between yes or no. A knee jerk option. Not on how. If you really believe in democracy, then you surely must believe that people need to be given the facts to be allowed to make an informed decision. Not the lies that were plastered, in the main, on the side of buses and from the mouths of so called "Brexiteers". Oh how I hate that term. If you find out you've been conned you have the right to have the opportunity to see this rectified. Technically the referendum wasn't badly run and filled with lies. Yes the questions asked, whilst straightforward, were ill-thought out, but the process of the vote was straightforward and democratic. The lies, were of course spouted by both sides in respect of the canvassing that went on surrounding the vote and you swallowed these and also believed them at your peril. There is a good expression: Don't ask the question if you fear the answer. DC was so confident of getting the answer he wanted that he forgot this important advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 24 minutes ago, The Original 59er said: Technically the referendum wasn't badly run and filled with lies. Yes the questions asked, whilst straightforward, were ill-thought out, but the process of the vote was straightforward and democratic. The lies, were of course spouted by both sides in respect of the canvassing that went on surrounding the vote and you swallowed these and also believed them at your peril. There is a good expression: Don't ask the question if you fear the answer. DC was so confident of getting the answer he wanted that he forgot this important advice. Given you subsequently admitted lies were put forward as fact on both sides, and I would cite the leave campaign more guilty of this as it was founded almost entirely on 2 basic lies, £350,000,000 and limiting immigration, (my opinion), it's clear you accept the second part of the statement. I would suggest that it was then not a well run campaign so the first part is, as far as I can see, therefore also true. Technically or otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original 59er Posted January 9, 2019 Report Share Posted January 9, 2019 2 hours ago, stlucifer said: Given you subsequently admitted lies were put forward as fact on both sides, and I would cite the leave campaign more guilty of this as it was founded almost entirely on 2 basic lies, £350,000,000 and limiting immigration, (my opinion), it's clear you accept the second part of the statement. I would suggest that it was then not a well run campaign so the first part is, as far as I can see, therefore also true. Technically or otherwise. We might agree to disagree on the semantics of the referendum being "badly run". My comment was based on the basic fact that the actual vote and the democracy of the process were straightforward and correct. The simple fact that the question was inept, as was the person asking it, doesn't make it badly run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) The Govt. lost it's second Brexit vote in two days yesterday amid rowdy scenes, this one designed to frustrate May's attempt to run down the clock. It has responded by meeting with Labour MPs to offer guarantees on worker's rights and accepting amendments on "the Backstop" to the core bill to appeal to Brexiteers - these amendments don't affect "the Deal" itself rather the non-binding "statement of intent" document that accompanies it. Plenty of Mayhem to come yet! Quote Brexit: May loses grip on deal after fresh Commons humiliation Amendments mean PM would have little room to move if Brexit deal rejected next week https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/09/may-loses-grip-on-brexit-deal-after-fresh-commons-humiliation Edited January 10, 2019 by Bud the Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougJamie Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said: The Govt. lost it's second Brexit vote in two days yesterday amid rowdy scenes, this one designed to frustrate May's attempt to run down the clock. It has responded by meeting with Labour MPs to offer guarantees on worker's rights and accepting amendments on "the Backstop" to the core bill to appeal to Brexiteers - these amendments don't affect "the Deal" itself rather the non-binding "statement of intent" document that accompanies it. Plenty of Mayhem to come yet! https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/09/may-loses-grip-on-brexit-deal-after-fresh-commons-humiliation What I find amazing is the line " The people voted for Brexit so it will happen " - Will it? Quite clear this Brexit plan wont pass, so what exactly did people vote for- well going by the main directives of the Leave campaign that was more control of our borders, more say in our laws, and more money available ,, plus exciting new trade deals- it was a pretty appealing picture. Far better than the any defense campaign ( Remain) could be- as in we are better with the devil we know blah blah- Yes i voted Remain- but only because i never trusted anyone to deliver on Brexit- because its just a word, and its only possible meaning- is that we leave EU, it never says how we leave . So are we going to leave- I mean- why do we need a deal to leave ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 6 minutes ago, DougJamie said: What I find amazing is the line " The people voted for Brexit so it will happen " - Will it? Quite clear this Brexit plan wont pass, so what exactly did people vote for- well going by the main directives of the Leave campaign that was more control of our borders, more say in our laws, and more money available ,, plus exciting new trade deals- it was a pretty appealing picture. Far better than the any defense campaign ( Remain) could be- as in we are better with the devil we know blah blah- Yes i voted Remain- but only because i never trusted anyone to deliver on Brexit- because its just a word, and its only possible meaning- is that we leave EU, it never says how we leave . So are we going to leave- I mean- why do we need a deal to leave ? We don't need a deal to leave but it would be in the interests of all parties to have one for a whole range of reasons. Unfortunately negotiators on borh sides are more interested in crushing each other than actually working together. Until that changes there won't be a decent deal on the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isle Of Bute Saint Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 10 minutes ago, oaksoft said: We don't need a deal to leave but it would be in the interests of all parties to have one for a whole range of reasons. Unfortunately negotiators on borh sides are more interested in crushing each other than actually working together. Until that changes there won't be a decent deal on the table. The EU don't want us leaving or encourage others to leave. In fact anti EU is growing in other EU countries populations. Better to stay in and get the EU overhauled with other members. Can see a second EU refarendom coming and so it should given more info is now out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintnextlifetime Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 32 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said: The EU don't want us leaving or encourage others to leave. In fact anti EU is growing in other EU countries populations. Better to stay in and get the EU overhauled with other members. Can see a second EU refarendom coming and so it should given more info is now out there. We will leave and the likelihood is that we will do so without a deal and for the reasons you mentioned above , they were never going to give us a favourable deal to leave , instead they are trying their best to f**k it up for us. There are now other countries that want to leave as more and more sovereign states realise that linking the disparate economy's of several countries together for the financial benefit of Germany , jist disnae work. .the United States of Europe the German Empire is a huge corrupt mess. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TPAFKATS Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 We will leave and the likelihood is that we will do so without a deal and for the reasons you mentioned above , they were never going to give us a favourable deal to leave , instead they are trying their best to f**k it up for us. There are now other countries that want to leave as more and more sovereign states realise that linking the disparate economy's of several countries together for the financial benefit of Germany , jist disnae work. .the United States of Europe the German Empire is a huge corrupt mess. .I don't think they (EU) are trying to f**k it up for us, they are just trying to protect their own interests as best they can. This is entirely reasonable in any negotiation, esp one regarding trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougJamie Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, saintnextlifetime said: We will leave and the likelihood is that we will do so without a deal and for the reasons you mentioned above , they were never going to give us a favourable deal to leave , instead they are trying their best to f**k it up for us. There are now other countries that want to leave as more and more sovereign states realise that linking the disparate economy's of several countries together for the financial benefit of Germany , jist disnae work. .the United States of Europe the German Empire is a huge corrupt mess. . That highlighted above is way a lot of people did vote Leave. Being honest, if we could get new trade deals, keep our deals with EU, and control our borders ala Japan and Oz then yes we would be better than being in a pretty corrupt self indulgent EU. Funny - back to Romania. They were promised so much coming into the EU, trade , standard of living so on, but they are far worse off being in it. Look at Eire. Portugal and Spain and now France..... fecking mess. Italy well they dont pay taxes , and of course Greece. The successful nations live on the outside of the EU but they manage their internal affairs better..... But its a club, and they wont stop the party just because the Brits leave, but long term its a disaster for the EU.................. and i believe us, look outside, we have Russia, China, and the US......................... great I wish we would call this what it is though. UKIP may well have cited Eastern Europeans, but they were also referring to outside EU immigration which is out of control in the North /Midlands of England, hence the fact most in the North voted out............... Enoch Powell was right back in the 60s, even if he didnt do his preeching in the most appealing manner..... With Social political streams now you cant call it what was stirred in the English- but lets be honest it was more Till Death us do Part than the new Doctor Who series Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 56 minutes ago, oaksoft said: We don't need a deal to leave but it would be in the interests of all parties to have one for a whole range of reasons. Unfortunately negotiators on borh sides are more interested in crushing each other than actually working together. Until that changes there won't be a decent deal on the table. Isn't that what's starting to happen now? I think there's a majority who won't accept a "No Deal" Brexit, here is the split for Monday's vote. Quote How MPs voted on no-deal amendment, party by party And here are the figures showing how MPs voted on amendment 7, party by party. I’ve taken then from the very useful CommonsVotes app. For the amendment Labour: 229 (out of a potential 257 MPs) SNP: 35 (out of 35) Conservatives: 20 (out of 317) Lib Dems: 11 (out of 11) Plaid Cymru: 4 (out of 4) Independents: 3 (out of 7) Greens: 1 (out of 1) Against the amendment Conservatives: 282 (out of a potential 317 MPs) DUP: 10 (out of 10) Labour: 3 (out of 257) Independent: 1 (out of 7) Obviously the next question is once Thelma (sic) loses Tuesday's vote can they stick together and stop her from driving us off the cliff?. 25 Labour MPs abstained on Monday night so it's not foregone conclusion yet - who's gonna blink first! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: Isn't that what's starting to happen now? I think there's a majority who won't accept a "No Deal" Brexit, here is the split for Monday's vote. Obviously the next question is once Thelma (sic) loses Tuesday's vote can they stick together and stop her from driving us off the cliff?. 25 Labour MPs abstained on Monday night so it's not foregone conclusion yet - who's gonna blink first! The single most important thing over the next 10 days is going to be what will happen if there is no single idea which will win parliamentary approval. I'm not sure there is a majority for a second referendum. Maybe we are heading for a delay of Brexit for another period of time. Short of a general election, I can't see any other scenario where May doesn't tell Parliament to GTF. She is absolutely determined not to have a second referendum and I believe she is genuine about that. Edited January 10, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud the Baker Posted January 10, 2019 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, oaksoft said: The single most important thing over the next 10 days is going to be what will happen if there is no single idea which will win parliamentary approval. I'm not sure there is a majority for a second referendum. Maybe we are heading for a delay of Brexit for another period of time. Short of a general election, I can't see any other scenario where May doesn't tell Parliament to GTF. She is absolutely determined not to have a second referendum and I believe she is genuine about that. If May loses her vote on Brexit on Tuesday night (?) then I think Labour are obliged to go for a VoNC which would not be a foregone conclusion IMO. Looking beyond that my crystal ball gets cloudy................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougJamie Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: If May loses her vote on Brexit on Tuesday night (?) then I think Labour are obliged to go for a VoNC which would not be a foregone conclusion IMO. Looking beyond that my crystal ball gets cloudy................. this is fun isnt it................... basically no one can second guess what the hell is going yo happen bar May's Deal will fail to go through.................. after that what ? I dont think there will be a GE because basically Labour are unwilling to joing forces with the SNP so it will always be a hung parliament I dont think there will be a second referendum. It will be the deathnail for Referendums as ala Indy 2014 and Brexit 2016 those that lose ( me) dont accept it............ Corbyn will never be PM of the UK , and May will be outed by or on 29th March....................... I can see an extention being offered, however that again means more money being poured into EU and massive uncertainities for our businesses. My company is now going to fly goods from China directly to our main airports ...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said: If May loses her vote on Brexit on Tuesday night (?) then I think Labour are obliged to go for a VoNC which would not be a foregone conclusion IMO. Looking beyond that my crystal ball gets cloudy................. If she loses next week and can't get a deal through parliament, and calls a general election she'll be standing down at the same time as per her announcement just before Christmas. Right now I am starting to veer towards a delay in Brexit being the only viable way forwards and I think that might become clear at the end of next week. I wonder whether we are just going to see Brexit delayed continually until the EU buckle and offer a better deal out of frustration and an inability to force the pace any other way. Edited January 10, 2019 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted January 10, 2019 Report Share Posted January 10, 2019 1 minute ago, oaksoft said: If she loses next week and can't get a deal through parliament, and calls a general election she'll be standing down at the same time as per her announcement just before Christmas. Right now I am starting to veer towards a delay in Brexit being the only viable way forwards and I think that might become clear at the end of next week. Glad you're coming round to my way of thinking. Not long till you accept that rescinding article 50 unilaterally is another viable option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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