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Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

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4 minutes ago, whydowebother said:

634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.

Does this just not prove that most politicians are only there to feather their own nests, placed there supposedly to carry out the public's wishes ........ unless of course it conflicts with their own or their party's views.  May is trying to persuade the public that her fudge; which is NOT what the public voted for is 'good for the Country' I really hate to say it but Farrage seems almost sensible.

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So, we move onto next Monday.

It could have been 3 days time but apparently Corbyn thinks it's better that we waste a day or so having a No Confidence vote he surely knows he cannot possibly win.

What May SHOULD do is step down immediately and call a general election but I think she'll try to delay Brexit and go back to Brussels for a better deal.

Edited by oaksoft
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1 hour ago, jaybee said:

Does this just not prove that most politicians are only there to feather their own nests, placed there supposedly to carry out the public's wishes ........ unless of course it conflicts with their own or their party's views.  May is trying to persuade the public that her fudge; which is NOT what the public voted for is 'good for the Country' I really hate to say it but Farrage seems almost sensible.

Only my opinion but little of the machinations have much to do with Brexit directly. They are a means or excuse to try to advance party advantage or in the case of the Conservative Party..looking for someone to blame outside that party and so prevent a split into two parties, one of which would be further to the right. Of course. .many will take a different view. 

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25 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

What May SHOULD do is step down immediately and call a general election but I think she'll try to delay Brexit and go back to Brussels for a better deal.

F*ck all chance !!

The rest of the EU are desperate for the UK to remain as part of the EU. There's absolutely no incentive for them to offer the UK a better deal so Mrs May would be wasting her time (yet again) trying to re-negotiate with them.

Devil's advocate warning !!!

As I see it the basic issue is that the vote to Brexit took place 30 months ago. That was the "will of the people" back then but would a second referendum (if it was held this week) produce the same result now that the true financial cost of leaving is clearer ?

As things stand, I reckon the UK is f*cked if we leave with a "deal" or otherwise we are f*cked if we leave without one. But, hey ho, we must leave under any circumstances as that was the result of the referendum.

Private Frazer was right after all.

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Guest TPAFKATS
634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.



The 634 aren't trying to defy the will of 17 million. Most have just decided that the deal the PM has brought to parliament isn't acceptable.
Many of these politicians who voted against would be happy with a no deal.
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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

So, we move onto next Monday.

It could have been 3 days time but apparently Corbyn thinks it's better that we waste a day or so having a No Confidence vote he surely knows he cannot possibly win.

What May SHOULD do is step down immediately and call a general election but I think she'll try to delay Brexit and go back to Brussels for a better deal.

I think Friday is considered as a constituency day and not normally regarded as a working day in Parliament so I don't think the VoNC affects the timetable.

It's obvious May expects to win the VoNC but by my calculations it'll only take 3 Conservative  MP's to vote against the Govt. I know most of tonight's rebel Tories will return to the fold for this vote but I don't think May would have much leverage on say 78-y-o Ken Clarke (ex-Chancellor) if he felt like he wanted to give her the fingers and there may (sic) be a few others. of a similar vintage who can afford to ignore the Whip.

***********************

Moving back to a point made earlier in the thread, career politicians who have gone from studying politics at Uni to backroom jobs with a political party or associated Think Tank to an MPs job are unlikely to ignore the Whip!  B)

 

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54 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
3 hours ago, whydowebother said:
634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.


 

The 634 aren't trying to defy the will of 17 million. Most have just decided that the deal the PM has brought to parliament isn't acceptable.
Many of these politicians who voted against would be happy with a no deal.

You may well have a point there ,Mays deal does not really remove us from Europe as 'leave' would imply and all this crap about the public didn't; know what they were voting for and 'we clever Politicians' are saving the Country's collective arse, is cobblers they are Not following the will of the people and hopefully that will eventually come back and bite them in the bum.  Big time.

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

I think Friday is considered as a constituency day and not normally regarded as a working day in Parliament so I don't think the VoNC affects the timetable.

It's obvious May expects to win the VoNC but by my calculations it'll only take 3 Conservative  MP's to vote against the Govt. I know most of tonight's rebel Tories will return to the fold for this vote but I don't think May would have much leverage on say 78-y-o Ken Clarke (ex-Chancellor) if he felt like he wanted to give her the fingers and there may (sic) be a few others. of a similar vintage who can afford to ignore the Whip.

***********************

Moving back to a point made earlier in the thread, career politicians who have gone from studying politics at Uni to backroom jobs with a political party or associated Think Tank to an MPs job are unlikely to ignore the Whip!  B)

 

Was discussing this at home tonight. There may be Tory MPs who are more passionate about avoiding Brexit than staying in power. Jeremy needs to publicly declare that he will campaign to drop Brexit or go for another referendum to entice them over though because it would end their careers. I imagine there might be a couple of Tories considering this.

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11 hours ago, jaybee said:

Does this just not prove that most politicians are only there to feather their own nests, placed there supposedly to carry out the public's wishes ........ unless of course it conflicts with their own or their party's views.  May is trying to persuade the public that her fudge; which is NOT what the public voted for is 'good for the Country' I really hate to say it but Farrage seems almost sensible.

The public never voted for anything specific. The 52% only voted for “Leave”. They didn’t vote for a specific deal, nor did they specifically vote for a no deal either. The only way to truly find out what would be wanted would be to have a referendum with the answers:

A. No Deal

B. May’s Deal

C. Re-negotiate Another Deal

That way we’d find out what people would actually want, from Leavers to Remainers who would have to accept defeat but at least still get a say in what happens. Remain was still heavily supported and many remainers may prefer a different Brexit to the leavers. The only way to know what the public actually want is to ask them.

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12 hours ago, whydowebother said:

634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.

 

Perhaps some of them are thinking of the 16 million who voted to stay in the EU? The Brexiteers keep repeating the the 17 million figure but never mention the 16 million who want to remain. :(

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Anyone think Theresa had a good cry last night?

I am neither a sympathiser nor a supporter but our MPs are all out for their own agenda - stuff what the public think..

Time for storming the Bastille! Get these Oxford and Cambridge twats out of making a mess of our country and making us a laughing stock

The Great British Empire continues to fizzle out... 

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Guest TPAFKATS

It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

It is a clusterf**k caused by an intransigent Europe. A lot of the mps voted against that because that isnae a deal either.

Europe still think they can stop us leaving. By being intransigent they have in a way destabilised the UK government.  .

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1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

May is not, and never has been the issue here. Cameron went to get a deal in 2015 off EU and got bugger all. That was sign of things to come........

If you join a club and you then want to leave you are limited to what demands you can make. The Uk just dont get that. UKIP stirring up false national emotions, hate thy neighbour. Across from that a weak wishy washy Remain campaign that only now can scare, and a DUP party that doesnt even represent the wishes of their electorate....

Europe- can just sit back, and watch us self implode, because we havent actually made any demands , just asked what we can have, and can we get a little bit more. Corbyn is not the answer either, at least Thatcher was a great negotiator .

Personally if its decided we want to Leave, stick Boris in................ or if we want to stay, just pull it. Who truly gives a flyer about the 2016 vote. It was a shot in the dark and  thats the most obvious thing thats come out of this..... to many choices

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Guest TPAFKATS

May is not, and never has been the issue here. Cameron went to get a deal in 2015 off EU and got bugger all. That was sign of things to come........

If you join a club and you then want to leave you are limited to what demands you can make. The Uk just dont get that. UKIP stirring up false national emotions, hate thy neighbour. Across from that a weak wishy washy Remain campaign that only now can scare, and a DUP party that doesnt even represent the wishes of their electorate....

Europe- can just sit back, and watch us self implode, because we havent actually made any demands , just asked what we can have, and can we get a little bit more. Corbyn is not the answer either, at least Thatcher was a great negotiator .

Personally if its decided we want to Leave, stick Boris in................ or if we want to stay, just pull it. Who truly gives a flyer about the 2016 vote. It was a shot in the dark and  thats the most obvious thing thats come out of this..... to many choices

The EU actually gave UK concessions in early 2016, I think, but Cameron went ahead with referendum anyway. These concessions were obviously in addition to the other concessions that thatcher, major, Blair had gotten previously.
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1 hour ago, Sweeper07 said:

Anyone think Theresa had a good cry last night?

I am neither a sympathiser nor a supporter but our MPs are all out for their own agenda - stuff what the public think..

Time for storming the Bastille! Get these Oxford and Cambridge twats out of making a mess of our country and making us a laughing stock

The Great British Empire continues to fizzle out... 

Well said.  We should lock em all up and buy one of those wooden tall thingybobs with a slidey sharp thingy that falls down and chops off .......well I'm sure you get the gist of my argument.

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Guest TPAFKATS
It is a clusterf**k caused by an intransigent Europe. A lot of the mps voted against that because that isnae a deal either.
Europe still think they can stop us leaving. By being intransigent they have in a way destabilised the UK government.  .
That's an interesting view - why is Europe being intransigent?
Uk voted to leave EU.
UK triggered article 50.
I'm not sure EU are trying to stop us leaving, all their language says UK is choosing to leave...

The only intransigence might be EU saying you rescind membership then you no longer have the benefits of being a member?
Don't think that's an unreasonable approach though.

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4 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

The public never voted for anything specific.

They certainly did. They voted to Leave.

May's deal is dead.

Currently the choice is exactly the same as it was at the referendum. Remain or Leave. Nothing has changed.

Edited by oaksoft
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19 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

That's an interesting view - why is Europe being intransigent?
Uk voted to leave EU.
UK triggered article 50.
I'm not sure EU are trying to stop us leaving, all their language says UK is choosing to leave...

The only intransigence might be EU saying you rescind membership then you no longer have the benefits of being a member?
Don't think that's an unreasonable approach though.
 

The "deal" seems to be that we get the same situation we have at the moment but they remove what little say we have left . .

I think it is undeniable that they have been awkward . You cant really blame them for being intransigent because Britain's leaving is likely to destabilise their club the way they are destabilising Britain at the moment.  .

Corporal Jones was right.  

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4 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The "deal" seems to be that we get the same situation we have at the moment but they remove what little say we have left . .

I think it is undeniable that they have been awkward . You cant really blame them for being intransigent because Britain's leaving is likely to destabilise their club the way they are destabilising Britain at the moment.  .

Corporal Jones was right.  

The Tories do that themselves. 

22 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

They certainly did. They voted to Leave.

May's deal is dead.

Currently the choice is exactly the same as it was at the referendum. Remain or Leave. Nothing has changed.

By quoting that one section of my comment you’ve completely taken it out of context. I’ve already said people voted to “Leave”. What they didnt vote on was “How to leave”. You have Leavers claiming “we voted for this, for that”, but that wasn’t the question. The question was purely Remain/Leave. No MP truly knows what the public want in regards to actually leaving.

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