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Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

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39 minutes ago, jaybee said:

As  stated elsewhere, the choice was leave or remain, we choose to leave so let's just leave .               end of.

The choice was vague allowing for individual interpretation. YOU may be satisfied with possible catastrophic outcome from "just leaving" but there are many that are voicing concerns over the route this government is dragging us down.

Like I say. There is no such thing as just leave. There needs to be a way to leave. That's where the so called leave campaign falls down because it is split within that faction. 

,At least remain meant remain. brexit means sod all, or a multitude of brexits. Take your pick, but. no matter what you thought you were voting for, one things for sure, not all of the 17,000,000 who voted with you agree with your idea of leaving.

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8 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

The choice was vague allowing for individual interpretation. YOU may be satisfied with possible catastrophic outcome from "just leaving" but there are many that are voicing concerns over the route this government is dragging us down.

 

We had our chance to ask Leavers what type of Leave they wanted during the campaign and the 3 or 4 year run up to it.

To top it all off, the Remain side wrote the question and provided the options. Any problems with vaguery are the sole fault of the Remain side.

We have no right to suddenly start using these arguments now as if they were completely new.

We had our chance and couldn't convince enough Leavers to vote with us.

It's all way too late for this.

We lost. Such is democracy I'm afraid.

Failing to accept this is not really helping.

 

Edited by oaksoft
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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

We had our chance and couldn't convince enough Leavers to vote with us.

Such is democracy I'm afraid.

Failing to accept this is not really helping.

It's not "failing to accept". It's re-evaluating when the facts prove the initial main campaign promises are lies. It IS democracy. IF you, and I don't mean you as a specific as you obviously could never be duped,  find you've been lied to then you sure as hell have a right to revisit your initial decision.

 

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Just now, stlucifer said:

It's not "failing to accept". It's re-evaluating when the facts prove the initial main campaign promises are lies. It IS democracy. IF you, and I don't mean you as a specific as you obviously could never be duped,  find you've been lied to then you sure as hell have a right to revisit your initial decision.

 

There are no new arguments to be had.

Nothing new has happened since the original vote which we couldn't have argued at the time.

We failed to do so.

There is no re-evaluation in light of new "facts". The lies of both sides were exposed during the campaign and people still voted Leave.

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5 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

There are no new arguments to be had.

Nothing new has happened since the original vote which we couldn't have argued at the time.

We failed to do so.

There is no re-evaluation in light of new "facts". The lies of both sides were exposed during the campaign and people still voted Leave.

The lies are still coming out. People trusted those who claimed leaving was a dawdle. The ordinary person in the street trusted those who claimed immigration would be down to nowt just by putting a x in the right place. The NHS would be funded to excess for generations by the money the country would save. Tell me the lies the remain campaign spouted that came close to those whoppers. No matter how many people dissed this, little englanders just saw those boats being turned away and those pound signs flashing on the red cross of the hospitals. Those who still want to leave on the strength of this, and there are many, are still lying to themselves. Throughout the campaign many tried to tell them that immigrants came from all over the world and many were needed but there were still those so xenophobic that they willed themselves to believe the borders could not only be controlled, but closed. Many who were less fanatical and voted for the lies are reconsidering. IF it weren't the case do you really think those entrenched on that side of the fence would be decrying the right for a rethink? 

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Guest TPAFKATS
absolutely, read my previous post to the one you responded to
So you'd gladly do something you now know to be harmful because you previously said you would do it, even though it was vague.
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1 hour ago, stlucifer said:

The lies are still coming out. People trusted those who claimed leaving was a dawdle. The ordinary person in the street trusted those who claimed immigration would be down to nowt just by putting a x in the right place. The NHS would be funded to excess for generations by the money the country would save. Tell me the lies the remain campaign spouted that came close to those whoppers. No matter how many people dissed this, little englanders just saw those boats being turned away and those pound signs flashing on the red cross of the hospitals. Those who still want to leave on the strength of this, and there are many, are still lying to themselves. Throughout the campaign many tried to tell them that immigrants came from all over the world and many were needed but there were still those so xenophobic that they willed themselves to believe the borders could not only be controlled, but closed. Many who were less fanatical and voted for the lies are reconsidering. IF it weren't the case do you really think those entrenched on that side of the fence would be decrying the right for a rethink? 

The immigration figures by definition cannot be a lie because we haven't had Brexit yet so that's a weird one right off the bat.

The NHS funding flaw was shown the same day Leavers announced it. A Leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot more money to spend on UK-voted-for priorities. That's a fact not a lie.

The only people I hear demanding a rethink are those on the losing side.

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Guest TPAFKATS
The immigration figures by definition cannot be a lie because we haven't had Brexit yet so that's a weird one right off the bat.
The NHS funding flaw was shown the same day Leavers announced it. A Leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot more money to spend on UK-voted-for priorities. That's a fact not a lie.
The only people I hear demanding a rethink are those on the losing side.
A leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot less money and an economic crash.
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At a comedy night at The Stand in Glasgow last  night.

Lady comedian says that brexit would be dreadful.

She says she loves nothing better than walking down the Polish aisle in Tesco.

”Cause there ladies you can get a five fingered KitKat, and we all know us ladies all enjoy an extra finger”

Girl on the table next to me lost it and nearly brought up one of her lungs.

 

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2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

We had our chance to ask Leavers what type of Leave they wanted during the campaign and the 3 or 4 year run up to it.

To top it all off, the Remain side wrote the question and provided the options. Any problems with vaguery are the sole fault of the Remain side.

Let no one ever be this mistaken.    ^^^^

It was not “we” who had our chance to do anything.

It was not a “Remain side” that wrote the question.

All of this was the responsibility and failure of the Tory party in a vain attempt to pacify its nutters. Solely - the Tories,  ALL their fault.

The chaos of crashing out with no deal is trying to be ameliorated by sensible people who also represent millions of disenfranchised voters.

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32 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:
54 minutes ago, jaybee said:
who made you God?

That makes no sense whatsoever

Neither did your statement saying 'So you'd gladly do something you know to be harmful because you previously said you would do it, even though it was vague'.   Just who gave you the right to interpret how I think?  How do you know what I am proposing will be harmful?  How is leaving vague? I would would have thought leaving is pretty definitive..  I am supposing that all this is in 'your' opinion or other peoples opinions who you think are correct, ergo my query; who made you God, or why do you get to choose to interpret what I mean?  

 

 

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5 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:
5 hours ago, oaksoft said:
The immigration figures by definition cannot be a lie because we haven't had Brexit yet so that's a weird one right off the bat.
The NHS funding flaw was shown the same day Leavers announced it. A Leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot more money to spend on UK-voted-for priorities. That's a fact not a lie.
The only people I hear demanding a rethink are those on the losing side.

A leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot less money and an economic crash.

Why would we have an economic crash?

This is chicken licken stuff.

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9 hours ago, stlucifer said:

The lies are still coming out. People trusted those who claimed leaving was a dawdle. The ordinary person in the street trusted those who claimed immigration would be down to nowt just by putting a x in the right place. The NHS would be funded to excess for generations by the money the country would save. Tell me the lies the remain campaign spouted that came close to those whoppers. No matter how many people dissed this, little englanders just saw those boats being turned away and those pound signs flashing on the red cross of the hospitals. Those who still want to leave on the strength of this, and there are many, are still lying to themselves. Throughout the campaign many tried to tell them that immigrants came from all over the world and many were needed but there were still those so xenophobic that they willed themselves to believe the borders could not only be controlled, but closed. Many who were less fanatical and voted for the lies are reconsidering. IF it weren't the case do you really think those entrenched on that side of the fence would be decrying the right for a rethink? 

If you want to go down the lies route , we have all indeed been mislead about Europe for years. When Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in the 6ts , he knew that the trade agreement would lead insidiously to a Union and admitted it many years later . .

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2 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

If you want to go down the lies route , we have all indeed been mislead about Europe for years. When Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in the 6ts , he knew that the trade agreement would lead insidiously to a Union and admitted it many years later . .

There was pressure on the UK to join the EEC at the time, as it was there as a trading platform and for many years it performed in that role, however the pressure from both Germany and France to make it a unified body eventually won through and the UK decided to stay in and semi-reluctantly joined their party.

For many people they probably saw that as the tipping point as the UK has historically been wary of the French and obviously the Germans, and now they saw the dominance of these two dictating how the changes were to be made to the trading platform.

The emergence of the bureaucracy that prevails in the EU and the addition of countries that will constantly require large amounts of cash to aid their economies and to bring them up to EU standards added to the general feeling of unease, probably enabled the 'Leave' vote to reach the point of being in the majority.

I'm not sitting here in the West of Scotland remotely ringing my hands over the rising tide of immigrants. That having been said I don't live in the south of England, and in the past 20 years the population of the UK has grown from 58 million to nearly 67 million a rise of 14% , whilst in that same period in Scotland the population has only risen 7% so we haven't seen anything like the same pressures placed on our various services compared to the south. So I don't place any kind of argument at the feet of the 'Leavers' on immigration grounds in this part of the country, but more at the resentment that the EU is an almost untouchable, undemocratic beast that is running out of control, sets its laws and tries to make a single currency the most important part of its strategy.

France knows very well if it gave the people the vote, they would probably vote to leave as we did, so you could argue they as a country are not prepared to pander to the democratic rights of their people. If you stand back for 5 minutes and just look at the form of the EU and how difficult they make it to leave their cosy club you might just wonder why people voted to leave! :huh:

We now can't find a formula that allows us to leave. Basically no one knows what is right and what is wrong and I don't think Theresa May's attempts to find a solution across the House will result in too much of a different story than what she has already attempted. If she takes 'no deal' off the table then it ties us to the EU in a form that is probably being a member of their club but having no influence. If she panders to a 2nd referendum vote, she probably then alienates voters from all sides who voted to leave, so I see the resistance to a second referendum . In fact if she acceded to that, she runs the risk that the result is the same and then she is well and truly in the hole as the country has resoundingly told her to leave under any circumstances. The clamour for a 2nd vote comes from the 'Remainers', but they blandly assume that a 2nd vote will give them the vote they want, I'm not convinced it will, as the EU's performance throughout this entire process has probably pi**ed off more voters than you think. :byebye

Edited by The Original 59er
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3 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

If you want to go down the lies route , we have all indeed been mislead about Europe for years. When Edward Heath signed us up to the EEC in the 6ts , he knew that the trade agreement would lead insidiously to a Union and admitted it many years later . .

That was then this is 2019 and a different world.............................

21 minutes ago, The Original 59er said:

There was pressure on the UK to join the EEC at the time, as it was there as a trading platform and for many years it performed in that role, however the pressure from both Germany and France to make it a unified body eventually won through and the UK decided to stay in and semi-reluctantly joined their party.

For many people they probably saw that as the tipping point as the UK has historically been wary of the French and obviously the Germans, and now they saw the dominance of these two dictating how the changes were to be made to the trading platform.

We've always been the Jim Gardiner of Europe stuck out on the wing in a bit of a huff (well it seemed that way at times) not the Hugh Murray, in the middle and scrapping for everything we can get. We've spent 40-odd years semi-committed and reaped the consequences one striking example for me is the fishing industry which has been suddenly become a major issue for the Scotch Tories and used as ammunition against the SNP when their party has been in charge for over half of our tenure in the EU - do you think the French or the Germans would treated their own people with such indifference?

42 minutes ago, The Original 59er said:

. The clamour for a 2nd vote comes from the 'Remainers', but they blandly assume that a 2nd vote will give them the vote they want, I'm not convinced it will, as the EU's performance throughout this entire process has probably pi**ed off more voters than you think. :byebye

Not entirely there are quite a few on the Leave side who believe like you (and me) that a second referendum would be far from a foregone conclusion Diane Abbott (admittedly not a leaver) also said this last night on Question Time.

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13 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 

The NHS funding flaw was shown the same day Leavers announced it. A Leave with no deal is likely to see us with a hell of a lot more money to spend on UK-voted-for priorities. That's a fact not a lie.

 

1

^^ Not a fact.

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Guest TPAFKATS
One point of view, but not everyone's. 
Why would we have an economic crash?
This is chicken licken stuff.
The concensus of economic opinion is that leaving with no deal will damage the UK economy.

Economists from across the spectrum of opinion agree on this, they only differ on the level of damage that the economy will suffer.

It doesn't take much to cause the economy to crash, 2% in 2008 was enough to give us a decade of 'austerity'.

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