Jump to content

Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, salmonbuddie said:
7 hours ago, oaksoft said:
I've already quite clearly told you what my problem was with your original post :blink:.
I'm done discussing it further.

No, you haven't, and, as usual, you run away pretending you've "won" when you can't answer.

You misunderstand me.

I am not interested in WINNING anything.

I am interested in an exchange of views. Nothing more, nothing less. Always have been.

I am not interested in wasting time with someone who is trying to mess people around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites




You misunderstand me.
I am not interested in WINNING anything.
I am interested in an exchange of views. Nothing more, nothing less. Always have been.
I am not interested in wasting time with someone who is trying to mess people around.


Then give us all the benefit of your view and answer the question I asked. Otherwise run off and stop wasting people's time.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:
11 hours ago, jaybee said:
Like i said earlier,  back to being a Fantasist.  B)

Since oaky's ignoring the question, I'll ask you - what's wrong with what I said, why does it make me a fantasist?

And it's not "back to being a fantasist" when you haven't been able to show what's fantasy in my original post.

As a nationalist, this an easy one to answer. In the UK, our country's view is ignored; in the EU, we could veto.

Imagine the EU was in a union with (say) Russia. In the referendum to decide whether to stay or go, Scotland voting to stay would be all that was required to throw leave under the bus. We would actually be the equal partner we were told we'd be if we stayed in the UK.

 

If you are referring to the above post, the fantasy bit is that Scotland is going to get another Indy referendum, because it isn't, not in the foreseeable future and when one imagines, that is termed as fantasising, so all your 'Scotland voting to throw leave under the bus' is pure Fantasy.

Hope that helps.

Edited by jaybee
Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, jaybee said:

But surely it''s not about substance is it? It's about debate, reasoning and to a large degree; interpretation.  I certainly don't deny your logic, but I do insist that morality doesn't stand up in a court of law against legitimacy and for goodness sake your certainly nae a bairn, so whatever made you believe the UK is an alliance of 'equal' partners, go on I bet you believe in fairies too.  Did the Uk government lie to Scotland over 'better together' ? You damn well better believe they did; but then again ..........like I said ALL (mostly all) politicians lie .........through their teeth generally.  As I stated earlier I am not here to point score unless someone else tries it first, I am more interested in an  honest discussion re what options are left, I still think revolution is worth considering.  B)

Up at midnight making multiple posts and not just to score points but because you're interested in honest discussion - get you! :rolleyes:

I wasn't naive enough to believe what I was being told back in 2014, like I've said the schizophrenic nature of the Better Together campaign "we love you Scotland, but if you leave we'll absolutely fuck you over" left me in no doubt that Dr. Hyde was the stronger part of the NO camp and how things would go in the aftermath of the referendum however I find your "all politicians lie, so we'll just have to accept the status quo" & "might is right" arguments unacceptable - I might not be able to change anything but I don't intend to give up and I don't expect the Hollyrood government to give up either.

***********************

I accept the emotional pull of over three hundred years of shared history is reason enough for many to want to stay in the UK but I believe that the Union stopped working for Scotland when the Tory party abandoned it's "One Nation" philosophy back in the 70s. We've come a long way since then and one thing is certain - we ain't going backwards.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:
11 hours ago, jaybee said:

But surely it''s not about substance is it? It's about debate, reasoning and to a large degree; interpretation.  I certainly don't deny your logic, but I do insist that morality doesn't stand up in a court of law against legitimacy and for goodness sake your certainly nae a bairn, so whatever made you believe the UK is an alliance of 'equal' partners, go on I bet you believe in fairies too.  Did the Uk government lie to Scotland over 'better together' ? You damn well better believe they did; but then again ..........like I said ALL (mostly all) politicians lie .........through their teeth generally.  As I stated earlier I am not here to point score unless someone else tries it first, I am more interested in an  honest discussion re what options are left, I still think revolution is worth considering.  B)

Up at midnight making multiple posts and not just to score points but because you're interested in honest discussion - get you! :rolleyes:

I wasn't naive enough to believe what I was being told back in 2014, like I've said the schizophrenic nature of the Better Together campaign "we love you Scotland, but if you leave we'll absolutely fuck you over" left me in no doubt that Dr. Hyde was the stronger part of the NO camp and how things would go in the aftermath of the referendum however I find your "all politicians lie, so we'll just have to accept the status quo" & "might is right" arguments unacceptable - I might not be able to change anything but I don't intend to give up and I don't expect the Hollyrood government to give up either.

***********************

I accept the emotional pull of over three hundred years of shared history is reason enough for many to want to stay in the UK but I believe that the Union stopped working for Scotland when the Tory party abandoned it's "One Nation" philosophy back in the 70s. We've come a long way since then and one thing is certain - we ain't going backwards.

I'm not sure where you got the 'all politicians lie, so we'll just have to accept the status quo" & "might is right" argument' from?  I did say all politicians lie, I however did NOT say accept the status quo and whilst I did imply that anyone who thought the UK is an 'equal partnership' was being ever so slightly naive', again I NEVER stated that 'might was right' a fact yes, but not right.  I do think something needs to be done particularly regarding politicians who are more interested in their future than the future of the people they are supposed to be representing., however I do think Scotland is better within the union than without, I simply can't rationalise a scenario where it leaves the UK to become an even smaller and less influential partner in the bigger fish pond that is the EEC.  Just doesn't compute for me; but then it sometimes is in the Scottish psych to self flagellate ......... just because we can.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



As a nationalist, this an easy one to answer. In the UK, our country's view is ignored; in the EU, we could veto.

Imagine the EU was in a union with (say) Russia. In the referendum to decide whether to stay or go, Scotland voting to stay would be all that was required to throw leave under the bus. We would actually be the equal partner we were told we'd be if we stayed in the UK.
 
If you are referring to the above post, the fantasy bit is that Scotland is going to get another Indy referendum, because it isn't, not in the foreseeable future and when one imagines, that is termed as fantasising, so all your 'Scotland voting to throw leave under the bus' is pure Fantasy.
Hope that helps.


I posted that Scotland elected a government with a manifesto commitment to holding an Indyref if we were taken out of the EU against our will. I also pointed out that Westminster voted to confirm that sovereignty lies with the people of Scotland, not with Westminster. Under those circumstances, Westminster has NO right to deny Indyref2 if and when the SG calls it.

That, apparently, is fantasy.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, simply repeating the same mantra does not make it so, lets just watch and see if Indy 2 comes along?
It's not "repeating the same mantra", it's holding a government to account over its manifesto promises. I know it doesn't happen with Westminster parties but it demonstrates another difference between Scotland and rUK.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

It's not "repeating the same mantra", it's holding a government to account over its manifesto promises. I know it doesn't happen with Westminster parties but it demonstrates another difference between Scotland and rUK.

OK, I get your point, but to me you are expecting 'the system' to deliver all it promises, which it wont; as very often even if it wished to, it isn't able to, circumstances change just the same for governments as they do for people.  How often have you promised or intended to do some particular thing, but because of circumstances, family, work, social or whatever you just simply cant.  I expect when Westminster made their promises they did NOT expect the public to vote leave.  That was the equivalent of opening the sewer gates at the top of the hill and shit has been flowing down ever since, the problem being 1: nobody has a big enough shovel to sort it out and 2; why should I? it aint my shit.  In the meantime here in the real world all us 'real' people are having debates about which Party, Country, Politician, caused the 'feck up' in the first place.  I can assure you absolutely honestly (as I used to tell the headmaster at school when brought up for some misdemeanour)  It wisnae me sir!  :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems the ERG can't find it in their (wooden) hearts to accept the assurances on the backstop.  So TM's deal can only pass with the support of other parties, it would seem.

Where to next, a quick accommodation of labour's demands?  No deal?  or an extension that, we are told, will certainly lead to a second EU vote?  Certainly a new Tory leader is in the offing, question is, will she go to the country as many have rumoured she has been planning for, or will she resign?

 

A sorry mess made by a "leader" incapable of feeling sorry about anything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/5/2019 at 1:11 PM, Wendy Saintss said:

Those against Brexit but backing Scexit and vice versa have some explaining to do.

Tragically.... :lol:

defeated by 149 votes.

 

a people’s vote to get us back to some kind of rational place would be nice.  :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cockles1987 said:

Resignation speech imminent emoji16.png

She could have saved her skin last night by going in and saying "I will keep this short , we are going for WTO rules and are triggering GATT24 " that would have got her some cred' back and Barnier would have been chasing her doon the corridor to offer her a deal. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, antrin said:

Tragically.... :lol:

defeated by 149 votes.

 

a people’s vote to get us back to some kind of rational place would be nice.  :)

 

The people already voted in 2016 , we should have left then but parlaiment have used the last two years to do their utmost to go against the peoples vote. .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The people already voted in 2016 , we should have left then but parlaiment have used the last two years to do their utmost to go against the peoples vote. .

Ah, but....

the people who voted voted in a referendum, which no government needs to recognise.

but as we were always really only voting to save the Tory party from falling apart... they pushed that Tory party split down the road and said we’ll rush into this.... diversionary referendum and shut up the loonies in our party.

 

...despite the fact that the yes vote/ the loony group was criminally funded and organised.

 

so...

there’ll be a people’s vote in due course and this time people will know it’s not just a silly ignorable referendum, there MAY be no criminal interference and bribery this time, so sanity will prevail in the UK.  Again.

 

and, I don’t know about you, but I hope this is a clusterf**k that destroys the Tory party.

 

also, for the last two years the people who wanted Brexit were in government, governing and failed to find a sensible way forward with their loopy brexitshite. Sensible MPs have been asked to vote for a British self-poking in the eye with a sharp stick and (to my frank amazement) there have been enough of them to recognise that May’s way was madness.

 

still a way to go, but I had pretty much given up hope of sanity prevailing.

Edited by antrin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:
5 hours ago, cockles1987 said:

Resignation speech imminent emoji16.png

She could have saved her skin last night by going in and saying "I will keep this short , we are going for WTO rules and are triggering GATT24 " that would have got her some cred' back and Barnier would have been chasing her doon the corridor to offer her a deal. .

Spot on my good friend , the problem is the lady has no balls ...... ermmmm  :wub:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The people already voted in 2016 , we should have left then but parlaiment have used the last two years to do their utmost to go against the peoples vote. .

No they haven't, the majority of parliamentarians voted to activate article 50 and passed a leaving date into law.  This problem is not about political will, it is about people who are elected and expected to legislate effectively and with competence being asked to enact an incompetent proposal submitted by an incompetent leader of a deeply divided party.  Their professional duty is as much to scrutinise and amend as it is to put into place the so-called will of the people.

The fact that the euro-sceptics railed against this deal tells you a lot, they were ideaology and greed driven people who wanted to interpret the referendum result in the most extreme way possible.  The two factors that have forged this deal and simultaneously crippled it are TM's red lines and the strategy of negotiating the withdrawal agreement first rather than the ongoing relationship.  She did that to appease the hard-liners and show the public she was on their side, it turns out that one sure way to deny the leavers their will was to try and deliver on it.

Edited by beyond our ken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

She could have saved her skin last night by going in and saying "I will keep this short , we are going for WTO rules and are triggering GATT24 " that would have got her some cred' back and Barnier would have been chasing her doon the corridor to offer her a deal. .

Even if the UK go for WTO they still have to be accepted in, its not just a simple matter of waltzing in. Leavers keep citing this like it’s a piece of piss.

Also, why do Leavers keep insisting the EU will be desperate for a deal? There’s 25+ of them and one UK which risks dismantling itself. The EU still have each other, the UK has bugger all come 29th March.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Also, why do Leavers keep insisting the EU will be desperate for a deal?

The UK will account for 18% of the EU's exports to non EU countries after we leave.

The EU exports £341 billion to the UK.

The EU exports £67 billion more to the UK than the UK exports to the EU.

The UK accounts for 13% of the EU population.

The UK accounts for 15% of the EU's GDP.

The UK is the EU's second largest export market for goods.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...