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Bud the Baker

Brexit Negotiations

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

I think Friday is considered as a constituency day and not normally regarded as a working day in Parliament so I don't think the VoNC affects the timetable.

It's obvious May expects to win the VoNC but by my calculations it'll only take 3 Conservative  MP's to vote against the Govt. I know most of tonight's rebel Tories will return to the fold for this vote but I don't think May would have much leverage on say 78-y-o Ken Clarke (ex-Chancellor) if he felt like he wanted to give her the fingers and there may (sic) be a few others. of a similar vintage who can afford to ignore the Whip.

***********************

Moving back to a point made earlier in the thread, career politicians who have gone from studying politics at Uni to backroom jobs with a political party or associated Think Tank to an MPs job are unlikely to ignore the Whip!  B)

 

Was discussing this at home tonight. There may be Tory MPs who are more passionate about avoiding Brexit than staying in power. Jeremy needs to publicly declare that he will campaign to drop Brexit or go for another referendum to entice them over though because it would end their careers. I imagine there might be a couple of Tories considering this.

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11 hours ago, jaybee said:

Does this just not prove that most politicians are only there to feather their own nests, placed there supposedly to carry out the public's wishes ........ unless of course it conflicts with their own or their party's views.  May is trying to persuade the public that her fudge; which is NOT what the public voted for is 'good for the Country' I really hate to say it but Farrage seems almost sensible.

The public never voted for anything specific. The 52% only voted for “Leave”. They didn’t vote for a specific deal, nor did they specifically vote for a no deal either. The only way to truly find out what would be wanted would be to have a referendum with the answers:

A. No Deal

B. May’s Deal

C. Re-negotiate Another Deal

That way we’d find out what people would actually want, from Leavers to Remainers who would have to accept defeat but at least still get a say in what happens. Remain was still heavily supported and many remainers may prefer a different Brexit to the leavers. The only way to know what the public actually want is to ask them.

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12 hours ago, whydowebother said:

634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.

 

Perhaps some of them are thinking of the 16 million who voted to stay in the EU? The Brexiteers keep repeating the the 17 million figure but never mention the 16 million who want to remain. :(

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Anyone think Theresa had a good cry last night?

I am neither a sympathiser nor a supporter but our MPs are all out for their own agenda - stuff what the public think..

Time for storming the Bastille! Get these Oxford and Cambridge twats out of making a mess of our country and making us a laughing stock

The Great British Empire continues to fizzle out... 

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It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

It is a clusterf**k caused by an intransigent Europe. A lot of the mps voted against that because that isnae a deal either.

Europe still think they can stop us leaving. By being intransigent they have in a way destabilised the UK government.  .

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1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

It's a complete and utter clusterf**k of a shambles.

Irrespective of whether you voted to leave, remain or didn't vote as it was too complicated (Kirstene Hair, MP for Angus),

we are over 2 1/2 years on from the referendum and to be in this current situation is farcical.

 

May had a vote of no confidence from her own mps, her government was found to be in contempt of Parliament, yesterday's record defeat on brexit only happened due to opposition mps taking gov to court and yet in all likelihood she will scrape through a no confidence vote in Parliament today due to her same mps now voting for her.

Years ago thatcher survived a no confidence vote by 4 votes, however she still quit a day or two later.

 

 

 

 

May is not, and never has been the issue here. Cameron went to get a deal in 2015 off EU and got bugger all. That was sign of things to come........

If you join a club and you then want to leave you are limited to what demands you can make. The Uk just dont get that. UKIP stirring up false national emotions, hate thy neighbour. Across from that a weak wishy washy Remain campaign that only now can scare, and a DUP party that doesnt even represent the wishes of their electorate....

Europe- can just sit back, and watch us self implode, because we havent actually made any demands , just asked what we can have, and can we get a little bit more. Corbyn is not the answer either, at least Thatcher was a great negotiator .

Personally if its decided we want to Leave, stick Boris in................ or if we want to stay, just pull it. Who truly gives a flyer about the 2016 vote. It was a shot in the dark and  thats the most obvious thing thats come out of this..... to many choices

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May is not, and never has been the issue here. Cameron went to get a deal in 2015 off EU and got bugger all. That was sign of things to come........

If you join a club and you then want to leave you are limited to what demands you can make. The Uk just dont get that. UKIP stirring up false national emotions, hate thy neighbour. Across from that a weak wishy washy Remain campaign that only now can scare, and a DUP party that doesnt even represent the wishes of their electorate....

Europe- can just sit back, and watch us self implode, because we havent actually made any demands , just asked what we can have, and can we get a little bit more. Corbyn is not the answer either, at least Thatcher was a great negotiator .

Personally if its decided we want to Leave, stick Boris in................ or if we want to stay, just pull it. Who truly gives a flyer about the 2016 vote. It was a shot in the dark and  thats the most obvious thing thats come out of this..... to many choices

The EU actually gave UK concessions in early 2016, I think, but Cameron went ahead with referendum anyway. These concessions were obviously in addition to the other concessions that thatcher, major, Blair had gotten previously.

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1 hour ago, Sweeper07 said:

Anyone think Theresa had a good cry last night?

I am neither a sympathiser nor a supporter but our MPs are all out for their own agenda - stuff what the public think..

Time for storming the Bastille! Get these Oxford and Cambridge twats out of making a mess of our country and making us a laughing stock

The Great British Empire continues to fizzle out... 

Well said.  We should lock em all up and buy one of those wooden tall thingybobs with a slidey sharp thingy that falls down and chops off .......well I'm sure you get the gist of my argument.

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It is a clusterf**k caused by an intransigent Europe. A lot of the mps voted against that because that isnae a deal either.
Europe still think they can stop us leaving. By being intransigent they have in a way destabilised the UK government.  .
That's an interesting view - why is Europe being intransigent?
Uk voted to leave EU.
UK triggered article 50.
I'm not sure EU are trying to stop us leaving, all their language says UK is choosing to leave...

The only intransigence might be EU saying you rescind membership then you no longer have the benefits of being a member?
Don't think that's an unreasonable approach though.

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4 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

The public never voted for anything specific.

They certainly did. They voted to Leave.

May's deal is dead.

Currently the choice is exactly the same as it was at the referendum. Remain or Leave. Nothing has changed.

Edited by oaksoft

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16 hours ago, whydowebother said:

634 politicians trying to defy the will of over 17 million people

Not sure what’s next, but hoping Brexit goes ahead.

 

In what way have they defied the will of the people?  They are not necessarily doing that just by opposing a particular deal.

And only 432 voted against the deal.

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19 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

That's an interesting view - why is Europe being intransigent?
Uk voted to leave EU.
UK triggered article 50.
I'm not sure EU are trying to stop us leaving, all their language says UK is choosing to leave...

The only intransigence might be EU saying you rescind membership then you no longer have the benefits of being a member?
Don't think that's an unreasonable approach though.
 

The "deal" seems to be that we get the same situation we have at the moment but they remove what little say we have left . .

I think it is undeniable that they have been awkward . You cant really blame them for being intransigent because Britain's leaving is likely to destabilise their club the way they are destabilising Britain at the moment.  .

Corporal Jones was right.  

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4 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

The "deal" seems to be that we get the same situation we have at the moment but they remove what little say we have left . .

I think it is undeniable that they have been awkward . You cant really blame them for being intransigent because Britain's leaving is likely to destabilise their club the way they are destabilising Britain at the moment.  .

Corporal Jones was right.  

The Tories do that themselves. 

22 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

They certainly did. They voted to Leave.

May's deal is dead.

Currently the choice is exactly the same as it was at the referendum. Remain or Leave. Nothing has changed.

By quoting that one section of my comment you’ve completely taken it out of context. I’ve already said people voted to “Leave”. What they didnt vote on was “How to leave”. You have Leavers claiming “we voted for this, for that”, but that wasn’t the question. The question was purely Remain/Leave. No MP truly knows what the public want in regards to actually leaving.

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45 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

The EU actually gave UK concessions in early 2016, I think, but Cameron went ahead with referendum anyway. These concessions were obviously in addition to the other concessions that thatcher, major, Blair had gotten previously.

Britain’s net contribution last year was £8.6 billion, up from £4.3 billion in 2009.

A major cause of the increased contributions was Mr Blair’s decision to agree to a 7 per cent cut in the rebate during negotiations on the last EU budget deal. If you aggregate the added contributions since 2009 probably cost the country several billions on op of our 'normal' contributions.

 

So not quite everything that Captain Charisma negotiated was an advantage to us!

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 The Brexit vote had no hint of what deals might be nor how hard it would be to achieve anything approaching what we already had in place.

May could have led the country towards a leave. 

She would have needed to convince people that her Red Lines were realistic.  She didn't - and that's why the MPs voted as they did.  The Remainers saw it as having to take all the rules of the EU with less power, less influence over new rules and less benefits than we already have.

She tried to curry favour with the swivel-eyed Brexiteers who will never be satisfied. She appointed THEM to carry out THEIR mission.  One by one they realised their stupidity, failed to make progress, then resigned as they didn't want the ones to be blamed for having failed to understand reality. 

Yet she piled onwards, whilst knowing that EU would not allow FREE entry to their market AND 'power' to influence it by a member that didn't want to contribute towards it and also that its insistence of free movement within the market for its members was sacrosanct.

The Brexiteers refused to accept that and their Little Englander (but NOT London!) mentality still can't see the hard realities.

You can't freely use a gym's facilities without paying a membership subscription or by paying a bit more than members if  you just want to pop in now and then.   And if you do pop in, you have to comply with the rules of the place.

I have yet to see the slightest sign of the Commonwealth countries or the USA piling in to shower the Brexiteers with trade deals and bright promises for our future.

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

They certainly did. They voted to Leave.

May's deal is dead.

Currently the choice is exactly the same as it was at the referendum. Remain or Leave. Nothing has changed.

Thats it in a nutshell isnt it

 

Whilst the politicians argue on how to leave/ stay the public 17.4m which is over 3 times Scotlands population voted unconditionally to Leave...... I voted to Remain unconditionally. I lost. I also lost Indy in 2014 for my once in a lifetime chance, but hey ho looks like I am a cat

 

Is a ref different from other voting formats?

 

If the Tories win the next GE, can we have another one two years later if the minority is not happy

 

So much for Demorcracy UK, leading the way in looking totally stupid, and thats how the EU view us

  

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The PMs games continue.....................:toilet

Quote

Theresa May’s plans for cross-party co-operation on Brexit were condemned after it emerged that she was not seeking to involve Jeremy Corbyn despite Tuesday’s historic defeat of her plan.

Andrea Leadsom admitted Labour’s leader had not been invited to cross-party talks and indicated that Corbyn needed to say what he wanted from Brexit before being invited to speak to the prime minister.

May offered cross-party talks after MPs rejected her deal by a majority of 230, with more than a third of Conservatives rebelling.

 

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1 hour ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

By quoting that one section of my comment you’ve completely taken it out of context. I’ve already said people voted to “Leave”. What they didnt vote on was “How to leave”. You have Leavers claiming “we voted for this, for that”, but that wasn’t the question. The question was purely Remain/Leave. No MP truly knows what the public want in regards to actually leaving.

There was no offer of some sort of deal to leave when the vote went ahead.

People voted Leave knowing this and the clear understanding was that Leave would mean Leave without conditions.

It is perfectly clear to all except those who are clutching at straws on the Remain side.

BTW you could equally apply your argument to Remain had we won that vote. What kind of Remain was being offered? Nobody knows for sure.

You can argue this line all you want but really we need to move on from this idea that people on the other side from us were either too stupid to know what they were doing or that they were conditionally voting Leave. They voted leave. End of story.

Edited by oaksoft

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4 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

The PMs games continue.....................:toilet

 

I think this is part of her problem and why she is such a weak leader.

What kind of person doesn't try to talk to other leaders to try and gain a way forwards?

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7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

There was no offer of some sort of deal to leave when the vote went ahead.

People voted Leave knowing this and the clear understanding was that Leave would mean Leave without conditions.

It is perfectly clear to all except those who are clutching at straws on the Remain side.

BTW you could equally apply your argument to Remain had we won that vote. What kind of Remain was being offered? Nobody knows for sure.

You can argue this line all you want but really we need to move on from this idea that people on the other side from us were either too stupid to know what they were doing or that they were conditionally voting Leave. They voted leave. End of story.

It's less than three years since the referendum and even my Fawlty memory recalls the prevailing mood of Leave voters which was "take back control of our borders" i.e. a hard Brexit, harder even then May's deal! To suggest that Leave voters didn't know what they were voting for is extremely patronising. That we haven't been able to secure the "easiest deal in history" is a far stronger argument against Brexit.

 

What amazes me is the Hard Brexit argument that since parliament rejected the deal it's now up to the EU to offer us something better.Even if the EU was so inclined (and we all know they're not) what could they offer that would secure a majority at Westminster? :wacko: 

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44 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

Is a ref(erendum) different from other voting formats?

Yes.  It's very different.

 

Due to UK Parliamentary Sovereignty, it's a constitutionally non-binding way of finding a bit about how the population feels.

For some unknown reason, {glory as the PM who did it?), May decided that as 30% of potential voters in the UK agreed with the swivel-eyed Brexit nutters pulling her own party apart that she'd go with that.   Then she rushed far too fast into it, announcing our leaving as soon as she could - with no need for such a rush - and while her Brexiteer ministers had yet to find out just how costly the whole exercise would be for the country.

 

Here's an example:

John Allan - President of the CBI on BBC Radio 4 this morning.

"The notion that we throw away the free trade agreements that we have with the EU and through the EU, that account for about 70% of our trade, and trade successfully under WTO rules is frankly cloud-cuckoo land."

 

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34 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

 

BTW you could equally apply your argument to Remain had we won that vote. What kind of Remain was being offered? Nobody knows for sure.

This is  lunacy.  Simplistic pishy wittering, as you call it.

The kind of Remain that was being offered was remain.  Not changing anything.  Not negotiating timeshares in Estonia, not setting sideways trade deals with the Cook Islands not f**kin' anything but Remain!

It was just remaining.

 

It's the duty of those wishing to change a status quo to justify the reasons for doing so that off a better deal than Remain.

 

They did.  They lied.  Big style on the side of Busses.

 

And instead of Taking Back Control, we are now scrabbling to find any means by which we can retain any sort of control.

Edited by antrin

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5 minutes ago, antrin said:

This is  lunacy.

The kind of Remain that was being offered was remain.  Not changing anything.  Not negotiating timeshares in Estonia, not setting sideways trade deals with the Cook Islands not f**kin' anything but Remain!

It was just remaining.

No it really wasn't.

There was plenty of discussion regarding how a Remain vote would result in the UK trying to reform the EU from within and equally strong moves by Germany and France to centralise further powers into Brussels with no clear idea about what "Remain" would look like in a few years.

Both Remain and Leave quite rightly required a certain amount of a leap of faith. Most normal and reasonable people would expect that.

You may have a slippery memory my friend but I do not.

Edited by oaksoft

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