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Brexit Negotiations


Bud the Baker

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8 hours ago, Kemp said:

Reviews by slevering Brexit halfwits :lol:

If you want to do some reading, pick up a few history books and compare every part of life in Europe with and without the EU.

Enough of entertaining these right-wing British nationalists taking our country down the tubes.

Always been my opinion that you should read material from varying points of view, usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

Describing people you disagree with as “slevering Brexit halfwits”, or describing them as right wing, without even attempting to understand that point of view is part of the problem. Each side exists in an online echo chamber. 

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8 minutes ago, Doakes said:

Always been my opinion that you should read material from varying points of view, usually the truth is somewhere in the middle. 

Describing people you disagree with as “slevering Brexit halfwits”, or describing them as right wing, without even attempting to understand that point of view is part of the problem. Each side exists in an online echo chamber. 

I think I am safe in describing the Tories and UKIP as right-wing British nationalists, don't you?

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38 minutes ago, Kemp said:

I think I am safe in describing the Tories and UKIP as right-wing British nationalists, don't you?

 

2016_EU_Referendum_Ballot_Paper.jpg

The question wasn’t about party politics though... 

You're making a massively sweeping assumption that everyone who has any issue whatsoever with the EU, must support the tories or UKIP 

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On 3/7/2019 at 11:11 AM, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Are you saying Scotland would not have more say in its own affairs independent in the European Union than it currently has under Westminster rule ?  There will be no hard Berxit thing is we will have one leg in one leg out and no say on European rules plus pumping money into the EU. In other words a worse deal than we have in the EU. Nuts. 

I would say Scotland would have less say in Europe than it has in the UK also , Ian. You are right about the deal that May has "negotiatiated " not being a deal at all , it is nothing more than a cunning plan by Barnier and Junker to keep us in the Union by the cunning use of a thing called The Backstop . At the moment , NI has a different currency , a differnt tax and border checks already set up for certain goods away from the actual border but according to Barnier and Co everything will be completely different in the two Irelands after we leave on the 29th . Just another part of the con'.

The best deal is WTO rules from the 29th gives free trade for 2years under GAT 24 agreement , that will save us £39billion and turn the tables on Europe because at the moment it is as if we have lost a war and have to accept whatever shoddy agreement we can get . May has made us look weak and is duplicite. She should resign .

On the subject of duplicite , I have came to the conclusion that Sturgeon is duplicite too . Calls herself a nationalist but makes fanatical speaches about how Scotland should be in a European Union which is corrupt. She isn't a nationalist , she is a selective unionist. .

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3 hours ago, DougJamie said:

This thread is becoming pointless just like Brexit

 

  • The Torys will win the next election
  • UKIP will rise again
  • SNPs wont win a second Indy Ref
  • Ireland will not Unite
  • Corbyn will continue to contradict himself
  • The English press will keep on splitting the Labour party
  • Johnston and Rees Mogg will get Cabinet positions
  • And the shitty UK will continue to let 30000 non EU citizens come every year

Its all good :toilet

 

I would agree. .

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4 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:
5 hours ago, jaybee said:

 

 

How to put my argument forward without sounding like an Englishman in disguise, mmm, difficult.  OK, I would accept (perhaps) that Scotland as an independent nation could join the EEC, however we aren't (in the required sense) an independent nation. Why is that?  Well because we voted to stay as part of the UK. These are facts and unfortunately Westminster does have the right to veto a second Indy vote called by Hollyrood. Just because we don't agree or like something; doesn't mean it's wrong and unfortunately when we voted to stay in the UK there were no caveats, if this; then that etc and referring to the English as Yoons really doesn't lend credence to your points, which you certainly have every right to make; just as I and other are entitled to refute them.  Between this and Brexit not a lot of people are going to be happy.

Refute means prove a statement to be false, show me where you've done that.

5 hours ago, jaybee said:

So how many votes do you want then?  Shall we have one every six months just in case opinion has changed again and of course when and if you finally get YOUR way then feck everybody else. 

I don't want a second referendum because we lost in 2014, I believe we deserve another because the circumstances have changed enough to warrant one!

The PLEDGE (sic) about IndyMax hasn't been fulfilled (see Page 19), the one about voting No being the only way to stay in the EU has proved to be the complete opposite of how it's turned out. Many other of the Project Fear myths like the currency issue and Spain voting to stop an Scotland from entering the EU have been exposed as fabrication or outdated. It's become clear since 2014 that Labour view Scotland as just a "Northern Branch", the Lib-Dems want a People's Vote on Europe but not another IndyRef, even SupeRuth has admitted that the UK is too Londoncentric - refute away!

People are entitled to vote how they feel but Westminster has no moral right to deny a second Independence Referendum if the Scottish Parliament votes for one.

Edited 3 hours ago by Bud the Baker

Shall we deal with the last but most important point first:  Scotland has NO right moral or otherwise to demand another referendum on independence, been there done it, gone. Suck it up and greet all you want, all this crap about 'ah it wis the big boy mister, he dun it it wisnae fair'.

Shall we now go to the beginning now and deal with ;refute': in my dictionary it says

refute  /rɪˈfjuːt/
verb
  1. prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.
    "these claims have not been convincingly refuted"
    synonyms: disprove, prove wrong/false, show/prove to be wrong/false, rebut, confute, give the lie to, demolish, explode, debunk, drive a coach and horses through, discredit, invalidate;More
    • prove that (someone) is wrong.
      "his voice challenging his audience to rise and refute him"
    • deny or contradict (a statement or accusation).
      "a spokesman totally refuted the allegation of bias"
      synonyms: deny, reject, repudiate, rebut, declare to be untrue

       

      Please note the highlighted text, words do tend to have a multiplicity of meanings (you can look that up in YOUR dictionary, I was trying to have a sensible debate, you appear to be more about scoring points.  Like I have said many times you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have just proven you wrong on two points and you being sarky or nationalistic about it doesn't validate your point it just makes you look silly (IMCO).

      Shall we turn to the 'Pledge' next?  The simplest way to deal with that is to refer you to Brexit, now in my humble opinion the politicians are trying there best to do exactly the opposite of what the referendum decided, so substitute Brexit and insert 'Pledge????  The vast majority of politicians (including Scottish ones) are there to feather their own nest and feck the public.    I'm beginning to sound like Shull':mellow:

      I am more than willing to debate all you wish; just please keep it fair, I apologise if what I write upsets you, but I think you were being unreasonable, ergo my sarky retorts.  :D

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3 hours ago, DougJamie said:

This thread is becoming pointless just like Brexit

  • Its not going to happen                          It will
  • We wont leave                                          We will
  • The Torys will win the next election   What choice with Corbyn as the opposition, they will
  • UKIP will rise again                                  I don't think that will happen
  • SNPs wont win a second Indy Ref      There wont be one
  • Ireland will not Unite                              Probably not; but that would make a lot of sense
  • Corbyn will continue to contradict himself     Yes and St Mirren will continue to win every match by at least four clear goals
  • The English press will keep on splitting the Labour party   I think Corbyn has that job well in hand
  • Johnston and Rees Mogg will get Cabinet positions      They should really get the jail for screwing the people, country and system.
  • And the shitty UK will continue to let 30000 non EU citizens come every year   Not sure about that, so no comment

 

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2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

You may very well be correct!

Strangely enough, I think if Brexit hadn't been a thing, I suspect Indyref2 might have happened in the next few years. I reckon most people are done with the entire thing for the moment.

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21 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Shall we deal with the last but most important point first:  Scotland has NO right moral or otherwise to demand another referendum on independence, been there done it, gone. Suck it up and greet all you want, all this crap about 'ah it wis the big boy mister, he dun it it wisnae fair'.

Shall we now go to the beginning now and deal with ;refute': in my dictionary it says

refute  /rɪˈfjuːt/
verb
  1. prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.
    "these claims have not been convincingly refuted"
    synonyms: disprove, prove wrong/false, show/prove to be wrong/false, rebut, confute, give the lie to, demolish, explode, debunk, drive a coach and horses through, discredit, invalidate;More
    • prove that (someone) is wrong.
      "his voice challenging his audience to rise and refute him"
    • deny or contradict (a statement or accusation).
      "a spokesman totally refuted the allegation of bias"
      synonyms: deny, reject, repudiate, rebut, declare to be untrue

       

      Please note the highlighted text, words do tend to have a multiplicity of meanings (you can look that up in YOUR dictionary, I was trying to have a sensible debate, you appear to be more about scoring points.  Like I have said many times you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have just proven you wrong on two points and you being sarky or nationalistic about it doesn't validate your point it just makes you look silly (IMCO).

      Shall we turn to the 'Pledge' next?  The simplest way to deal with that is to refer you to Brexit, now in my humble opinion the politicians are trying there best to do exactly the opposite of what the referendum decided, so substitute Brexit and insert 'Pledge????  The vast majority of politicians (including Scottish ones) are there to feather their own nest and feck the public.    I'm beginning to sound like Shull':mellow:

      I am more than willing to debate all you wish; just please keep it fair, I apologise if what I write upsets you, but I think you were being unreasonable, ergo my sarky retorts.  :D

 

You have one argument against having a second referendum, that we had one 2014 but as I've pointed out many of the reasons used by "Better Together" for voting NO in 2014 are no longer valid. You haven't proven me wrong on any of the reasons I've given for a second Independence referendum or upset me although I'll concede that you-are able to contradict me, it's never a totally wasted day when you learn something new.

As for the sanctity of of Referendum results that has already been challenged by all three major UK parties in recent years (Labour, Lib-Dems officially & up to 50 Tories in the case of Brexit) and the Tories on the Welsh Assembly so as the SNP have won three elections in Scotland since then I insist they have a later mandate and therefore a moral right to insist on a second referendum if they so choose, to deny this denies that the UK is an alliance of equal partners.

I look forward to you being able to return with anything more substantial than mere denial.

 

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49 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Shall we deal with the last but most important point first:  Scotland has NO right moral or otherwise to demand another referendum on independence, been there done it, gone. Suck it up and greet all you want, all this crap about 'ah it wis the big boy mister, he dun it it wisnae fair'.

Shall we now go to the beginning now and deal with ;refute': in my dictionary it says

refute  /rɪˈfjuːt/
verb
  1. prove (a statement or theory) to be wrong or false; disprove.
    "these claims have not been convincingly refuted"
    synonyms: disprove, prove wrong/false, show/prove to be wrong/false, rebut, confute, give the lie to, demolish, explode, debunk, drive a coach and horses through, discredit, invalidate;More
    • prove that (someone) is wrong.
      "his voice challenging his audience to rise and refute him"
    • deny or contradict (a statement or accusation).
      "a spokesman totally refuted the allegation of bias"
      synonyms: deny, reject, repudiate, rebut, declare to be untrue

       

      Please note the highlighted text, words do tend to have a multiplicity of meanings (you can look that up in YOUR dictionary, I was trying to have a sensible debate, you appear to be more about scoring points.  Like I have said many times you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I have just proven you wrong on two points and you being sarky or nationalistic about it doesn't validate your point it just makes you look silly (IMCO).

      Shall we turn to the 'Pledge' next?  The simplest way to deal with that is to refer you to Brexit, now in my humble opinion the politicians are trying there best to do exactly the opposite of what the referendum decided, so substitute Brexit and insert 'Pledge????  The vast majority of politicians (including Scottish ones) are there to feather their own nest and feck the public.    I'm beginning to sound like Shull':mellow:

      I am more than willing to debate all you wish; just please keep it fair, I apologise if what I write upsets you, but I think you were being unreasonable, ergo my sarky retorts.  :D

If Brexit has done anything,  it has proved that politicians do not give a f**k about the people,  you are right about that . There will be exceptions to that but on the whole it is spot on . I would add that we don't seem to have any capable leaders in any of the parties.  .

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4 hours ago, DougJamie said:

This thread is becoming pointless just like Brexit

  • Its not going to happen
  • We wont leave
  • The Torys will win the next election
  • UKIP will rise again
  • SNPs wont win a second Indy Ref
  • Ireland will not Unite
  • Corbyn will continue to contradict himself
  • The English press will keep on splitting the Labour party
  • Johnston and Rees Mogg will get Cabinet positions
  • And the shitty UK will continue to let 30000 non EU citizens come every year

Its all good :toilet

 

Spot on with that. Just to add St Mirren will stay up. 

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2 hours ago, Doakes said:

 

 

You're making a massively sweeping assumption that everyone who has any issue whatsoever with the EU, must support the tories or UKIP 

1

I didn't do anything of the sort, maybe reread my responses to your comments.

Anyway, I'm not saying that everyone who voted for Brexit is a braindead racist c**t. What I will say is that every braindead racist c**t that voted, voted for Brexit.

I don't have any desire to find any middle ground with these people by the way, they can all go f**k themselves.

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Shall we deal with the last but most important point first:  Scotland has NO right moral or otherwise to demand another referendum on independence, been there done it, gone. Suck it up and greet all you want, all this crap about 'ah it wis the big boy mister, he dun it it wisnae fair'.


Scotland voted for a government with a manifesto stating "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will."

That hasn't happened yet but when it does then the party in power has an obligation to effect its promise to the people that gave it that power and hold the referendum. Westminster has already agreed that sovereignty in Scotland lies with the people of Scotland so Westminster has NO right, moral or otherwise, to deny a referendum.
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17 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


Scotland voted for a government with a manifesto stating "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will."

That hasn't happened yet but when it does then the party in power has an obligation to effect its promise to the people that gave it that power and hold the referendum. Westminster has already agreed that sovereignty in Scotland lies with the people of Scotland so Westminster has NO right, moral or otherwise, to deny a referendum.

 

Ah the old "pretend that someone who voted SNP voted to support EVERY SNP statement, policy and utterance" trick.

I remember both Wendy and Stuart Dickson pulling that stunt many times.

Now you are at it - treating people like idiots.

Edited by oaksoft
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Ah the old "pretend that someone who voted SNP voted to support EVERY SNP statement, policy and utterance" trick.
I remember both Wendy and Stuart Dickson pulling that stunt many times.
Now you are at it - treating people like idiots.


Thanks for your edifying contribution. I must remember to ignore the promises parties make in their manifestos in future when deciding where my vote goes. And just pick someone at random and vote for them. That's not even close to what I posted, except perhaps in your head.

For clarity, you're saying that what I've said is wrong, yes? If so, which part of what I said is wrong?
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1 minute ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


Thanks for your edifying contribution. I must remember to ignore the promises parties make in their manifestos in future when deciding where my vote goes. And just pick someone at random and vote for them. That's not even close to what I posted, except perhaps in your head.

For clarity, you're saying that what I've said is wrong, yes? If so, which part of what I said is wrong?

 

You know exactly what stunt you tried to pull. You've been called out on it. We move on. :lol:

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You know exactly what stunt you tried to pull. You've been called out on it. We move on. [emoji38]


You're very good at "calling people out" in an attempt to deflect from being called out. Classic Dickson right there.

I'll ask again, what part of what I said is wrong?
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51 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


You're very good at "calling people out" in an attempt to deflect from being called out. Classic Dickson right there.

I'll ask again, what part of what I said is wrong?

I've already quite clearly told you what my problem was with your original post :blink:.

I'm done discussing it further.

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5 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

If Brexit has done anything,  it has proved that politicians do not give a f**k about the people,  you are right about that . There will be exceptions to that but on the whole it is spot on . I would add that we don't seem to have any capable leaders in any of the parties.  .

Spot on, Imbecile , idiot or moron seems to be the choice.:D

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5 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

You have one argument against having a second referendum, that we had one 2014 but as I've pointed out many of the reasons used by "Better Together" for voting NO in 2014 are no longer valid. You haven't proven me wrong on any of the reasons I've given for a second Independence referendum or upset me although I'll concede that you-are able to contradict me, it's never a totally wasted day when you learn something new.

As for the sanctity of of Referendum results that has already been challenged by all three major UK parties in recent years (Labour, Lib-Dems officially & up to 50 Tories in the case of Brexit) and the Tories on the Welsh Assembly so as the SNP have won three elections in Scotland since then I insist they have a later mandate and therefore a moral right to insist on a second referendum if they so choose, to deny this denies that the UK is an alliance of equal partners.

I look forward to you being able to return with anything more substantial than mere denial.

But surely it''s not about substance is it? It's about debate, reasoning and to a large degree; interpretation.  I certainly don't deny your logic, but I do insist that morality doesn't stand up in a court of law against legitimacy and for goodness sake your certainly nae a bairn, so whatever made you believe the UK is an alliance of 'equal' partners, go on I bet you believe in fairies too.  Did the Uk government lie to Scotland over 'better together' ? You damn well better believe they did; but then again ..........like I said ALL (mostly all) politicians lie .........through their teeth generally.  As I stated earlier I am not here to point score unless someone else tries it first, I am more interested in an  honest discussion re what options are left, I still think revolution is worth considering.  B)

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3 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

Scotland voted for a government with a manifesto stating "We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will."

That hasn't happened yet but when it does then the party in power has an obligation to effect its promise to the people that gave it that power and hold the referendum. Westminster has already agreed that sovereignty in Scotland lies with the people of Scotland so Westminster has NO right, moral or otherwise, to deny a referendum.

Like i said earlier,  back to being a Fantasist.  B)

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5 hours ago, Kemp said:
7 hours ago, Doakes said:

 

 

You're making a massively sweeping assumption that everyone who has any issue whatsoever with the EU, must support the tories or UKIP 

1

 I didn't do anything of the sort, maybe reread my responses to your comments.

Anyway, I'm not saying that everyone who voted for Brexit is a braindead racist c**t. What I will say is that every braindead racist c**t that voted, voted for Brexit.

I don't have any desire to find any middle ground with these people by the way, they can all go f**k themselves.

And ........if Scotland does get independence you can head the Diplomatic core...............       :D

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Like i said earlier,  back to being a Fantasist.  B)
Since oaky's ignoring the question, I'll ask you - what's wrong with what I said, why does it make me a fantasist?

And it's not "back to being a fantasist" when you haven't been able to show what's fantasy in my original post.
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