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Bud the Baker

Brexit Negotiations

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On 2/20/2019 at 9:12 AM, Wendy Saintss said:

 

On 2/20/2019 at 4:15 AM, Kemp said:

With these "new trade deals", I would just like to know what exactly are the British planning to sell? 


I’d imagine we would continue to sell services? :lol:

:1eye

On 2/20/2019 at 10:21 AM, Bud the Baker said:

Are they not just as much at risk if leave the Customs Union and lose "passporting" rights & isn't that why so many of them including Jacob Rees Mogg's own investment company are setting up  shop in Dublin etc.?

 

 

16 hours ago, Wendy Saintss said:

Yes!

Not that its relevant to my answer to Kemp's question!

What are the British planning to sell - services - there's potentially problems with that as well.................

...................seems relevant to me!

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As much as it's an absolute disaster, it was incredibly stupid to have the referendum in the first place. 

No one in politics seems to be willing to put their baws on the table and say what they really think... still pussyfooting around the issue and campaigning for stuff they don't really believe in  (can't really blame them tbf, it's an absolute mess)

I predict this will drag on for years and create a lot of uncertainty, which will of course be terrible for the economy. 

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21 minutes ago, Doakes said:

As much as it's an absolute disaster, it was incredibly stupid to have the referendum in the first place.

The worst thing is the actual reasoning for David Cameron’s reasons behind this. He only offered it on the Conservative manifesto as he feared they were going to lose voters to UKIP in the 2015 election. He called it to give himself the best chance of remaining in Number 10, which succeeded.

What he didn’t anticipate was that the Leave campaign would actually win. Like the Scottish referendum, he was hoping a remain vote would succeed so the issue could be put to bed for a couple of decades. Instead, he’s managed to mess both of those up, losing the EU vote and completely nullifying the Scottish referendum vote as one of the big promises to No Voters was “its your only chance to stay in the EU.” He’s completely f**ked up but he will never pay for his errors.

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28 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

The worst thing is the actual reasoning for David Cameron’s reasons behind this. He only offered it on the Conservative manifesto as he feared they were going to lose voters to UKIP in the 2015 election. He called it to give himself the best chance of remaining in Number 10, which succeeded.

What he didn’t anticipate was that the Leave campaign would actually win. Like the Scottish referendum, he was hoping a remain vote would succeed so the issue could be put to bed for a couple of decades. Instead, he’s managed to mess both of those up, losing the EU vote and completely nullifying the Scottish referendum vote as one of the big promises to No Voters was “its your only chance to stay in the EU.” He’s completely f**ked up but he will never pay for his errors.

Couldn't agree more. Self interest / preservation in politics causes so many issues. Becoming PM is a job that should really require a strong set of individual values. Instead these "leaders" act in a way that cements their own short term ambitions, but doesn't reflect what is best for the UK as a whole. Not sure what the answer is though

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On 2/20/2019 at 11:07 PM, antrin said:

Er.... naw.

 

Turkey is in its own wee special Customs Union, off to one  side - such as Uk might possibly aspire to also have? 

Turkey is not in THE Customs Union.

sorry I can’t share any optimism - possibly because I think most of the new jobs are on shit terms, no possibility of progress, little chance of sufficient remuneration to plan for a future or a family, no pension, no sick pay, little future etc etc.... cannae be arsed repeating past aired concerns further.

 

Er. . lol

 

Whatever happened . .

 

. .to A.Pedant. .:)

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6 hours ago, Doakes said:

Couldn't agree more. Self interest / preservation in politics causes so many issues. Becoming PM is a job that should really require a strong set of individual values. Instead these "leaders" act in a way that cements their own short term ambitions, but doesn't reflect what is best for the UK as a whole. Not sure what the answer is though

Don't agree with that . I think there was more to Dave Cameron's referendum desicion than just self -preservation , l think he had noticed the rise of extremist groups . We got a vote in 1973 to retify our entry into the then EEC , which over a series of treaties became The European Union . I think you would need to go all the way back to Hugh Gateskill (and look what happened to him) to find a Party leader of a major UK party , to find one that wasn't pro-European Union ( maybe it has been a requirement of getting the job). Brown said we didn't need a vote after we signed the Lisbon treaty as he said it wasn't a change to the constitution (no , just another EU power grab of UK sovereignty). Eire got a vote , and said no to the Lisbon Treaty , of course , in typical EU style they just pumped them with propaganda and then waited , and got them to vote  again . This is a pattern with these people , say no to them and they keep coming back ( I think Norway has had to say no 3times now) . Say yes to them and they don't ask again. .

You said yourself , in another thread that there is now a move away from globalism . A few countries are now sick of being dictated to by Berlin Brussels . .

What we are seeing now is how detached the London parlaiment is from the people . MP's voted in on a Leave ticket are now recanting and showing themselves to be hypocrits ( to put it politely). There is a lot of sour grapes in that there House and l suppose that is what you get when you put a Remainer in charge of Leave negotiations. .:rolleyes:

 

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8 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Dont want to waste too much on this as it appears most Brexiters have the mental capacity of the average Morton fan.

Maybe read some of this if you don't think selling services is going to be a problem for Brexit Britain....

Don't give a toss about all your collective shit below, much more interested in how (as usual) YOU are right and the majority of those who supported Brexit are wrong. WOW! why does that NOT surprise me, Guess what? I am a supporter of Brexit and there is bugger all wrong with MY mental capacity, however judging by the manner in which you find it necessary to belittle those who DARE to disagree with LORD Kemp, I think yours may be a bit suspect. Have a nice day.  :D

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Guest TPAFKATS
Don't give a toss about all your collective shit below, much more interested in how (as usual) YOU are right and the majority of those who supported Brexit are wrong. WOW! why does that NOT surprise me, Guess what? I am a supporter of Brexit and there is bugger all wrong with MY mental capacity, however judging by the manner in which you find it necessary to belittle those who DARE to disagree with LORD Kemp, I think yours may be a bit suspect. Have a nice day.  
Jeez, there might be nothing wrong with your mental capacity but that post suggests your equalibrium might be a bit out of sorts 🤣

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2 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Don't agree with that . I think there was more to Dave Cameron's referendum desicion than just self -preservation , l think he had noticed the rise of extremist groups . We got a vote in 1973 to retify our entry into the then EEC , which over a series of treaties became The European Union . I think you would need to go all the way back to Hugh Gateskill (and look what happened to him) to find a Party leader of a major UK party , to find one that wasn't pro-European Union ( maybe it has been a requirement of getting the job). Brown said we didn't need a vote after we signed the Lisbon treaty as he said it wasn't a change to the constitution (no , just another EU power grab of UK sovereignty). Eire got a vote , and said no to the Lisbon Treaty , of course , in typical EU style they just pumped them with propaganda and then waited , and got them to vote  again . This is a pattern with these people , say no to them and they keep coming back ( I think Norway has had to say no 3times now) . Say yes to them and they don't ask again. .

You said yourself , in another thread that there is now a move away from globalism . A few countries are now sick of being dictated to by Berlin Brussels . .

What we are seeing now is how detached the London parlaiment is from the people . MP's voted in on a Leave ticket are now recanting and showing themselves to be hypocrits ( to put it politely). There is a lot of sour grapes in that there House and l suppose that is what you get when you put a Remainer in charge of Leave negotiations. .:rolleyes:

 

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I think there’s plenty wrong with the EU. As you say, we originally signed up for a trade agreement. It’s sort of grown globalist arms and legs since then. Various treaties and deals being signed behind closed doors, so the loss of sovereignty point is very valid.

Politicians are self serving though, or, serving what they are instructed to serve. David Cameron’s f**k up has caused everyone a massive headache. I reckon the EU will eventually crumble anyway. What worries me is what we replace it with... a “trade deal” with the US could come with even worse terms and conditions. Especially when we’re negotiating from a position of weakness...

I think the main issue is that most leavers/remainers are so split over this shite, that it’s difficult for anyone to find the common ground. Yet the arguments being made on either side are quite similar, when you think about it.

Leave - don’t trust the EU, don’t want to lose sovereignty to the EU. Fed up of immigration. Try something new.

Remain - don’t trust the US, don’t want to form closer ties with the US. Stick to what we know.

I can’t see any way that this ends in Britain being left as this wee prosperous island. It will go one way, or the other.

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13 hours ago, saintnextlifetime said:

Don't agree with that . I think there was more to Dave Cameron's referendum desicion than just self -preservation , l think he had noticed the rise of extremist groups . We got a vote in 1973 to retify our entry into the then EEC , which over a series of treaties became The European Union . I think yo u would need to go all the way back to Hugh Gateskill (and look what happened to him) to find a Party leader of a major UK party , to find one that wasn't pro-European Union ( maybe it has been a requirement of getting the job). Brown said we didn't need a vote after we signed the Lisbon treaty as he said it wasn't a change to the constitution (no , just another EU power grab of UK sovereignty). Eire got a vote , and said no to the Lisbon Treaty , of course , in typical EU style they just pumped them with propaganda and then waited , and got them to vote  again . This is a pattern with these people , say no to them and they keep coming back ( I think Norway has had to say no 3times now) . Say yes to them and they don't ask again. .

You said yourself , in another thread that there is now a move away from globalism . A few countries are now sick of being dictated to by Berlin Brussels . .

What we are seeing now is how detached the London parlaiment is from the people . MP's voted in on a Leave ticket are now recanting and showing themselves to be hypocrits ( to put it politely). There is a lot of sour grapes in that there House and l suppose that is what you get when you put a Remainer in charge of Leave negotiations. .:rolleyes:

 

The current two leaders TM & JC have Eurosceptic backgrounds - as I've already pointed out, in this thread, May was at one point considered a candidate to lead the LEAVE campaign before going the other way clearly with one eye on a future leadership bid. JCs actions over the past year or so hardly indicate someone with much of a desire to Remain.

The two main parties may (sic) have campaigned on a LEAVE ticket in 2017 but not the same one, Labour's stated Manifesto policy was for us to "retain the benefits of the Single Market & Customs Union" - a very soft Brexit indeed and one JC seems reluctant to fight for :whistle .

Rather than triggering A50 on a relatively small referendum margin it'd probably have made more sense to first see if we could have secured more concessions (like Eire did before the Second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty :rolleyes: ) on for example Freedom of Movement a policy shift which now seems to be gathering support in France Germany & the Netherlands and working out what she could get through Westminster - I realise the PM would never have been able to achieve enough to satisfy all LEAVE voters but a second referendum on improved terms wouldn't have been a betrayal of the LEAVE vote but to return to the theme of my opening paragraph would've required a genuine Remainer in charge compared to the current mess which satisfies one person only (TM) it would have been the sensible thing to do. Eire acted like a grown up whereas the UK has acted like a huffy teenager and it's clear to see which country did best as a result.

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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Meanwhile the country continues to drift as three Cabinet Ministers openly threaten to vote against the government while "real people"  continue to suffer Windrush, Homelessness, Universal Benefit scandals continue driven by a target orientated beaurocracy.

Although it may (sic) not be a case of abandoning collective by the three Ministers if you believe the rather paranoid ending to this statement by Tory Brexiteer Andrew Bridgeon

  Quote

Three cabinet ministers who signalled they could vote to delay Britain’s withdrawal from the EU should resign, a Tory Brexiter MP has said.

Amber Rudd, Greg Clark and David Gauke should step down, said Andrew Bridgen, a member of the hard-Brexit European Research Group (ERG). He said the ministers were rejecting government policy in breach of cabinet collective responsibility.

“What they are actually saying is that they are rejecting collective responsibility of being in government, they are rejecting government policy,” he told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme. “In that case, they should do the honourable thing and resign from the government immediately.”

He accused Downing Street of orchestrating their actions in an attempt to pressurise Tory Brexiters into backing Theresa May’s withdrawal agreement. 

“This is partly organised by No 10 – potentially Robbie Gibb, the comms director – to try to bully Brexit-supporting MPs into supporting the withdrawal agreement. I am afraid this is not going to work,” he said.

 

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

The current two leaders TM & JC have Eurosceptic backgrounds - as I've already pointed out, in this thread, May was at one point considered a candidate to lead the LEAVE campaign before going the other way clearly with one eye on a future leadership bid. JCs actions over the past year or so hardly indicate someone with much of a desire to Remain.

The two main parties may (sic) have campaigned on a LEAVE ticket in 2017 but not the same one, Labour's stated Manifesto policy was for us to "retain the benefits of the Single Market & Customs Union" - a very soft Brexit indeed and one JC seems reluctant to fight for :whistle .

Rather than triggering A50 on a relatively small referendum margin it'd probably have made more sense to first see if we could have secured more concessions (like Eire did before the Second referendum on the Lisbon Treaty :rolleyes: ) on for example Freedom of Movement a policy shift which now seems to be gathering support in France Germany & the Netherlands and working out what she could get through Westminster - I realise the PM would never have been able to achieve enough to satisfy all LEAVE voters but a second referendum on improved terms wouldn't have been a betrayal of the LEAVE vote but to return to the theme of my opening paragraph would've required a genuine Remainer in charge compared to the current mess which satisfies one person only (TM) it would have been the sensible thing to do. Eire acted like a grown up whereas the UK has acted like a huffy teenager and it's clear to see which country did best as a result.

 

 

16 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Meanwhile the country continues to drift as three Cabinet Ministers openly threaten to vote against the government while "real people"  continue to suffer Windrush, Homelessness, Universal Benefit scandals continue driven by a target orientated beaurocracy.

Although it may (sic) not be a case of abandoning collective by the three Ministers if you believe the rather paranoid ending to this statement by Tory Brexiteer Andrew Bridgeon

Whilst I can do nothing but agree wholeheartedly what a total *uck up the Government and (to be honest) everybody else has made of this and reading your and other peoples 'options' which in some case is a genuine attempt to bring sanity to a chaotic environment, but in others (such as remaining in the customs union) seems to me to be contrary to the referendum which at the end of the day the Government were mandated to deliver. God knows how mind you? 

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On 2/21/2019 at 11:19 AM, jaybee said:

I take it you do not believe in Democracy then?  Or perhaps only if it meets YOUR requirements.  So the Brexit people won the vote to leave , but clearly you do not agree,so sod democracy lets just make things worse and we might get our own way.  No wonder some English think we Scots are arseholes, because some of us are.

Speak for yourself:D

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5 hours ago, antrin said:

It's the end of days!!!!  :o

 

Jaybee accepting reason is implicit in Bud the Baker's posts AND TPAFKATS approving Jaybee's sentiment....

sounds good, but I'll just need to look up implicit,,,,,,,,,,,, and if it aint a sweary word, were OK :D

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Can kicked down the road again with the "meaningful" vote delayed until March 12th.

Everyone knew this was TMs strategy once the first vote was pulled back in December. I'm speaking with hindsight here (well half&half) but really that was the time for a couple of the TIGgers to resign & fight a By-Election on a Second Vote platform, instead they have waited until it too late to do anything about it before March 29th. I suppose if A50 is delayed in a bid to get May's deal through they could resign en masse and still do this.

I shiver in an-tic-i-paaaaaaaaation!

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On 2/22/2019 at 11:40 PM, Doakes said:

Yeah, don’t get me wrong, I think there’s plenty wrong with the EU. As you say, we originally signed up for a trade agreement. It’s sort of grown globalist arms and legs since then. Various treaties and deals being signed behind closed doors, so the loss of sovereignty point is very valid.

Politicians are self serving though, or, serving what they are instructed to serve. David Cameron’s f**k up has caused everyone a massive headache. I reckon the EU will eventually crumble anyway. What worries me is what we replace it with... a “trade deal” with the US could come with even worse terms and conditions. Especially when we’re negotiating from a position of weakness...

I think the main issue is that most leavers/remainers are so split over this shite, that it’s difficult for anyone to find the common ground. Yet the arguments being made on either side are quite similar, when you think about it.

Leave - don’t trust the EU, don’t want to lose sovereignty to the EU. Fed up of immigration. Try something new.

Remain - don’t trust the US, don’t want to form closer ties with the US. Stick to what we know.

I can’t see any way that this ends in Britain being left as this wee prosperous island. It will go one way, or the other.

Sorry , l don't see how Cameron giving us the vote was a f**k up as we got a long awaited vote on an issue that we should have voted on many years before . Perhaps we didn't get the vote before because politicians didn't want that kind of answer? Or did you mean it was a f**k up for him because he didn't get the vote he expected ?

The PM must have said about 50 times that we would be leaving on the 29th of March , then 3 of her Cabinet ministers said we should seek a delay . They should have been sacked .

We are now likely to move to an indefinite delay as the Eurocrats and the PM hope that the whole thing just blows over . There obviously is no Party in that House capable of leading the country which leaves the door open to extremism , something we thankfully have never had in this country. .

If we don't leave the sinking hulk that is Europe , we here in the UK will go down with it .

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The UK really deserves all that is coming to it if / when brexit happens. Why people on either side are not jumping up and down to have this sorted one way or other before the end of March, I don't know. If it had been frexit (france leaving), their would have been riots and lynchings if their elected members had been as ineffective as May et al.

My personal opinion is, May had her chance, her one shot, for the deal and it got roundly pissed upon from a great height - the status quo should then apply, not this endless round of crap. Finish.

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