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Brexit Negotiations

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31 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Just for clarity, I voted "Leave", so please don't lump us all in with the liars and racists.  Irrespective of that, what he is claiming is at best disingenuous and at worst downright deceitful.

I'm not claiming anything other than that you're demonstratively talking nonsense and are doing it from a position of ignorance. You've been given all you need to check on this yet you display willful ignorance as if its a badge of honour. 

 

Do you know how Iceland were able to stop capital from leaving their jurisdiction during their banking crisis? read article 112 of the EEA| treaty and find out.

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3 hours ago, Reynard said:

all single market legislation is deal with in the EEA treaty. Norway is free to adopt whatever EU legislation over and about the single market acquis that is chooses. Its not compelled in any way whatsoever. Here's part of a blog post Iworked on with another chap around three years ago

 

 

For sure, as part of the EEA package, there is provision for a range of financial contributions, but these include "Norway Grants", made by Norway to eastern enlargement countries to help with their post-Communist economic rehabilitation. 

In the period 2009-14, these grants amounted to €804 million, supporting 61 programmes in 13 countries in Europe including the member countries that joined in 2004 and 2007. But this money is not remitted to the EU and is not part of the EU budget. It is administered separately, under the aegis of the Norwegian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

Norway also provides 95 percent of the funding to the EEA Grants. The two together amounted to €1.8bn over the period, of which €1.71bn was paid by Norway. As with the Norway grants, the EEA grants are not part of the EU budget. They are administered by the independent Financial Mechanism Committee.

These payments are part of the EEA agreement but they are not specifically payments for access to the Single Market. They are effectively part of Norway's strategy for co-operation with the EU. 

That, however, is not the full extent of relations. As of 2014, Norway participated in twelve EU programmes, including Horizon 2020, Erasmus +, the Consumer Programme and the Copernicus programme. It also has a bilateral arrangement for participation in interregional programmes under the EU's Regional Policy. 

Additionally, it takes part in the activities of 27 EU agencies. These include the Education, Audiovisual and Culture Executive Agency (EACEA), the European Agency for the Management of Operational Cooperation at the External Borders (FRONTEX), the European Agency for Safety and Health at Work (EU-OSHA), the European Chemicals Agency (ECHA), the European Defence Agency (EDA), the Executive Agency for Health and Consumers (EAHC), the Research Executive Agency (REA) and the European Police College (CEPOL). 

As to the budget for these activities, over the 2007-2013 multi-annual period, total EU spending was around €70 billion, of which the estimated EFTA contribution was in the order of €1.7 billion – averaging approximately €250 million a year. Norway carried 95.77 percent of that cost (€1.63bn). 

This cash, therefore, is for services rendered and, even then, the funding was not one-way. Around €1.01bn was returned from EU funds, making the seven-year net contribution in the order of €620m - or about €90 million a year.

In the Seventh Framework (research) Programme, for instance, Icelandic and Norwegian participants, including many small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs), were involved. Icelandic researchers were contributed to 217 projects, receiving funding of nearly €70 million. Norwegian researchers contributed to more than 1,400 projects, receiving €712 million. Both Iceland and Norway signed up to the successor programme, Horizon 2020. 

As to the specific EFTA contributions paid for the functioning of the Single Market, these come out of the EFTA budget, to which Norway pays its contribution. There is no direct payment to the EU. 

Currently the annual (2014) budget is 22,360,000 Swiss Francs (about £16 million), of which 55 percent is borne by Norway. This includes categories defined as EEA related activities, EFTA/EU statistical cooperation and EU/EFTA cooperation programmes. That, strictly, is the cost of Single Market Access which, on a pro-rata basis, would cost the UK less than £100 million per annum. 

However, if the total gross amount were taken for Norway's annual payments were taken, that would amount to about £500 million in real money. Should the UK leave the EU and rejoin the EEA, the pro-rata payment would amount to about £6 billion a year gross – just under a third of current gross payments – or about £4 billion net. If it is done on a GDP ratio, the UK's economy is five times the size of Norway's, we would pay £2.5 billion gross. Net, that might work out at as little as £1.8bn.
 

 

 

 

 

You worked on a blog with Dr Richard North, eh?  The guy who said this sort of stuff (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2010/dec/17/richard-north-blog):

---

Back in July, North wrote a post entitled "Liar, liar!", as part of his ongoing campaign against the chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Rajendra Pachauri. In it, he said the following:

"What would be really interesting in this respect would be an examination of cultural attitudes to lying – why, for instance, Indians such as Rajendra Pachauri are practiced liars and why others find it difficult to accept that they are being lied to, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence."

In the comment thread, one of his supporters responded, "anything east of dover, not to be trusted!"

North then wrote: "There are a lot of Kermits to the west of Dover ... to say nothing of the Dagos and sundry others. These are to be trusted?"

This failed to elicit a single critical comment on his thread – unless, that is, he deleted them. Must try harder.

So last month he returned to this entertaining theme with the following observations:

"it is only a matter of time before some fool (many fools) tell us that it is the warmest year since Noah built his ark, warning that we are going to fry unless we pay zillions of dollars into the kitty for jungle bunnies and development corporations such as Oxfam."

Jungle bunnies eh? I don't think I've heard that term since Alf Garnett was on the air. But still, nothing but adulation from his small but adoring fan base. Four pages of comments, and not a single complaint about this term.

---

Doesn't exactly show him to be unbiased in his attitude to "foreigners" and therefore I think it would be advisable to take his opinions with a (rather large) dose of salt.

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4 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

You worked on a blog with Dr Richard North, eh?  The guy who said this sort of stuff (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/georgemonbiot/2010/dec/17/richard-north-blog):

---

Back in July, North wrote a post entitled "Liar, liar!", as part of his ongoing campaign against the chair of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, Rajendra Pachauri. In it, he said the following:

"What would be really interesting in this respect would be an examination of cultural attitudes to lying – why, for instance, Indians such as Rajendra Pachauri are practiced liars and why others find it difficult to accept that they are being lied to, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence."

In the comment thread, one of his supporters responded, "anything east of dover, not to be trusted!"

North then wrote: "There are a lot of Kermits to the west of Dover ... to say nothing of the Dagos and sundry others. These are to be trusted?"

This failed to elicit a single critical comment on his thread – unless, that is, he deleted them. Must try harder.

So last month he returned to this entertaining theme with the following observations:

"it is only a matter of time before some fool (many fools) tell us that it is the warmest year since Noah built his ark, warning that we are going to fry unless we pay zillions of dollars into the kitty for jungle bunnies and development corporations such as Oxfam."

Jungle bunnies eh? I don't think I've heard that term since Alf Garnett was on the air. But still, nothing but adulation from his small but adoring fan base. Four pages of comments, and not a single complaint about this term.

---

Doesn't exactly show him to be unbiased in his attitude to "foreigners" and therefore I think it would be advisable to take his opinions with a (rather large) dose of salt.

No. His son 

 

None of which makes any of what was written here incorrect. 

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39 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Just for clarity, I voted "Leave", so please don't lump us all in with the liars and racists.  Irrespective of that, what he is claiming is at best disingenuous and at worst downright deceitful.

God knows why. Brexit is a fools charter set to destroy the UK.

Not everybody who voted leave is a racist but every racist voted leave.

UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL, SDL all racist to the core and all campaigners for Leave.

We were told vote no in 2014 to remain.

We were lied to by English centred parties just for a change.

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5 minutes ago, Reynard said:

EFTA is a standalone organisation. IT is not a part of the EU. You've been shown that you're talking nonsense on this.

 

As you managed to to use google, maybe you'd like to try article 112-113 of the EEA treaty now. This deals with your "four freedoms"

 

Norway pay into the EFTA budget. NOT the EU budget.

 

They are bound by the EEA treaty as thats how EFTA countries can be a part of the single market. The single market is not part of the EU. The EU is a whole different thing. Its a political union and a treaty organisation. Norway is not part of it and doesn't contribute to any of the costs of operating that.

 

Maybe if you'd managed to actually read what I'd posted up instead of wallowing in your ignorance of the subject you'd get on a bit better.

Where did I say that EFTA was part of the EU?  I'll give you a clue - nowhere.  Who's talking nonsense?

----------

This 112-113? (http://www.efta.int/media/documents/legal-texts/eea/the-eea-agreement/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf)

CHAPTER 4 SAFEGUARD MEASURE

 Article 112

1. If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.

2. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Agreement.

3. The safeguard measures shall apply with regard to all Contracting Parties.

Article 113

1. A Contracting Party which is considering taking safeguard measures under Article 112 shall, without delay, notify the other Contracting Parties through the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

2. The Contracting Parties shall immediately enter into consultations in the EEA Joint Committee with a view to finding a commonly acceptable solution.

3. The Contracting Party concerned may not take safeguard measures until one month has elapsed after the date of notification under paragraph 1, unless the consultation procedure under paragraph 2 has been concluded before the expiration of the stated time limit. When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Contracting Party concerned may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly necessary to remedy the situation. For the Community, the safeguard measures shall be taken by the EC Commission.

4. The Contracting Party concerned shall, without delay, notify the measures taken to the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

5. The safeguard measures taken shall be the subject of consultations in the EEA Joint Committee every three months from the date of their adoption with a view to their abolition before the date of expiry envisaged, or to the limitation of their scope of application. Each Contracting Party may at any time request the EEA Joint Committee to review such measures.

---------

And EFTA paid into the EU budget, stop trying to split hairs.  If you look at it your way then nobody in Britain contributes to the EU budget - individuals contribute to the government and the government contributes to the EU budget - also nobody contributes to the UK welfare, health, social security, defence or any-f**king-thing-else budgets.  You really are being a prat here.

And, seeing as we are on this site, you are saying that nobody on here is contributing to buying a controlling stake in St Mirren, they are contributing to SMiSA.  I think that should make it clear to everyone how disingenuous you are being.

----------

According to the EFTA site "There are two kinds of EU expenditure that the EEA EFTA States contribute to: operational and administrative."

----------

Back to you.

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2 minutes ago, Longtimecoming said:

God knows why. Brexit is a fools charter set to destroy the UK.

Not everybody who voted leave is a racist but every racist voted leave.

UKIP, BNP, Britain First, EDL, SDL all racist to the core and all campaigners for Leave.

We were told vote no in 2014 to remain.

We were lied to by English centred parties just for a change.

Which was totally correct. If Scotland had left the UK it was also leaving the EU.

 

Scotland isn't a member state of the EU, the UK currently is. And when the UK leaves so will Scotland as Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. 

 

You were lied to by salmond who claimed Scotland would remain in the EU with all the same conditions and opt outs the UK had negotiated during its time of membership. He was lying. Scotland would have become a third state to the EU. None of the EU treaties would then apply to the newly formed Scottish state. That position was made clear by the EU at the time. It was Salmond who lied, nobody else.

 

As for the raaayciiists stuff. I'm pretty sure plenty of racists voted to leave. 400,000 folk that had voted SNP in the 2015 general election also voted to leave. Plenty of blood and soil racists among them too.

 

As for me, I voted to leave the EU, we decided back in 2009 that we needed to look at HOW we go about this as the Lisbon Treaty altered everything and rendered the old tory eurosceptics from the Maastricht days, and the likes of UKIP redundant. What they were peddling was no longer valid. And the method of leaving (article 50) had been written into the treaty so it had to be used or total chaos ensues. As it is, it looks like it will take us longer to leave because doing it via EEa has been made toxic by people like slartibartfast puppeteers who don't understand what the single market is.

 

But it WILL be an orderly leave of sorts and it WILL look a hell of a lot like EEA. Which is daft. But politics can be daft.

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14 minutes ago, Reynard said:

No. His son 

 

None of which makes any of what was written here incorrect. 

It was him that put his name to blog article (unless his son has the same first name). (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85515)

 

No, it doesn't.  But it does give a pointer to hidden agendas.

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2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Where did I say that EFTA was part of the EU?  I'll give you a clue - nowhere.  Who's talking nonsense?

----------

This 112-113? (http://www.efta.int/media/documents/legal-texts/eea/the-eea-agreement/Main Text of the Agreement/EEAagreement.pdf)

CHAPTER 4 SAFEGUARD MEASURE

 Article 112

1. If serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties of a sectorial or regional nature liable to persist are arising, a Contracting Party may unilaterally take appropriate measures under the conditions and procedures laid down in Article 113.

2. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Agreement.

3. The safeguard measures shall apply with regard to all Contracting Parties.

Article 113

1. A Contracting Party which is considering taking safeguard measures under Article 112 shall, without delay, notify the other Contracting Parties through the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

2. The Contracting Parties shall immediately enter into consultations in the EEA Joint Committee with a view to finding a commonly acceptable solution.

3. The Contracting Party concerned may not take safeguard measures until one month has elapsed after the date of notification under paragraph 1, unless the consultation procedure under paragraph 2 has been concluded before the expiration of the stated time limit. When exceptional circumstances requiring immediate action exclude prior examination, the Contracting Party concerned may apply forthwith the protective measures strictly necessary to remedy the situation. For the Community, the safeguard measures shall be taken by the EC Commission.

4. The Contracting Party concerned shall, without delay, notify the measures taken to the EEA Joint Committee and shall provide all relevant information.

5. The safeguard measures taken shall be the subject of consultations in the EEA Joint Committee every three months from the date of their adoption with a view to their abolition before the date of expiry envisaged, or to the limitation of their scope of application. Each Contracting Party may at any time request the EEA Joint Committee to review such measures.

---------

And EFTA paid into the EU budget, stop trying to split hairs.  If you look at it your way then nobody in Britain contributes to the EU budget - individuals contribute to the government and the government contributes to the EU budget - also nobody contributes to the UK welfare, health, social security, defence or any-f**king-thing-else budgets.  You really are being a prat here.

And, seeing as we are on this site, you are saying that nobody on here is contributing to buying a controlling stake in St Mirren, they are contributing to SMiSA.  I think that should make it clear to everyone how disingenuous you are being.

----------

According to the EFTA site "There are two kinds of EU expenditure that the EEA EFTA States contribute to: operational and administrative."

----------

Back to you.

Already been covered. Try actually reading and also reading the links. If you can manage to do it without dry boaking.

 

EU expenditure in areas like Erasmus etc as shown to you already. Are absolutely NOT to do with operational costs of the running of the EU. you seem to be struggling with this.

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1 minute ago, Reynard said:

Which was totally correct. If Scotland had left the UK it was also leaving the EU.

 

Scotland isn't a member state of the EU, the UK currently is. And when the UK leaves so will Scotland as Scotland voted to remain part of the UK. 

 

You were lied to by salmond who claimed Scotland would remain in the EU with all the same conditions and opt outs the UK had negotiated during its time of membership. He was lying. Scotland would have become a third state to the EU. None of the EU treaties would then apply to the newly formed Scottish state. That position was made clear by the EU at the time. It was Salmond who lied, nobody else.

 

As for the raaayciiists stuff. I'm pretty sure plenty of racists voted to leave. 400,000 folk that had voted SNP in the 2015 general election also voted to leave. Plenty of blood and soil racists among them too.

 

As for me, I voted to leave the EU, we decided back in 2009 that we needed to look at HOW we go about this as the Lisbon Treaty altered everything and rendered the old tory eurosceptics from the Maastricht days, and the likes of UKIP redundant. What they were peddling was no longer valid. And the method of leaving (article 50) had been written into the treaty so it had to be used or total chaos ensues. As it is, it looks like it will take us longer to leave because doing it via EEa has been made toxic by people like slartibartfast puppeteers who don't understand what the single market is.

 

But it WILL be an orderly leave of sorts and it WILL look a hell of a lot like EEA. Which is daft. But politics can be daft.

You are a case in point.

Plenty of racism comes from you and your anti Scottish parties.

You believed Fudrage and bonkers Boris.

That makes you a fool or a racist.

I would go for both.

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Just now, Slartibartfast said:

It was him that put his name to blog article (unless his son has the same first name). (http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=85515)

 

No, it doesn't.  But it does give a pointer to hidden agendas.

Do you understand how research is done?

 

There are loads of folk doing that as requested.

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17 minutes ago, Reynard said:

When you've got over trying to shoot the messenger how about you attempt to deal with the actual fact that you were wrong?

Where?

 

EFTA says that they contribute to the EU budget, you say they don't.  Who should know best?

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Just now, Longtimecoming said:

You are a case in point.

Plenty of racism comes from you and your anti Scottish parties.

You believed Fudrage and bonkers Boris.

That makes you a fool or a racist.

I would go for both.

Well if you reckon thats what makes someone a racist then thats you're problem. As for who I believed, you'll probably have some evidence to back that up so that you can DEFINITELY call me a racist. as for foolishness, I'll just leave your post there as a monument to yours.

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2 minutes ago, Slartibartfast said:

Where?

 

EFTA says that they contribute to the EU budget, you say they don't.  Who should know best?

No, they dont contribute to the EU budget. They contribute to whatever EU projects they want to participate in. EFTA countries contribute to the operational costs of EFTA. Not to operational costs of the EU

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Just now, Reynard said:

Well if you reckon thats what makes someone a racist then thats you're problem. As for who I believed, you'll probably have some evidence to back that up so that you can DEFINITELY call me a racist. as for foolishness, I'll just leave your post there as a monument to yours.

Your problem not you're.

You claim remain were the liars.

What about bonkers Boris' bus?

That was the biggest lie in the whole campaign.

Do you dispute all the racist parties like UKRAP campaigned for leave?

I am looking into opportunities abroad as I don't want to live in an insular racist shitehole like the UK.

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1 hour ago, Reynard said:

No, they dont contribute to the EU budget. They contribute to whatever EU projects they want to participate in. EFTA countries contribute to the operational costs of EFTA. Not to operational costs of the EU

FFS, I quoted, and provided links to, the EFTA site.

 

I'll leave it for others to decide which source is more reliable - EFTA or a racist blogger.

 

I'm not even going to bother with you now as you're obviously "doing a Dickson" and I'm sure you've probably got a few of those "less deserving" folk to kick or something.

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