The Politics Thread

[shull]

8 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Really?  Well I'm gripped.

Naw, you're just cheeky, rude and ignorant. 

[salmonbuddie]

That is hardly a rephrase. You were wrong. Just admit that and we can move on.

So you don't accept that millions are using foodbanks? If so, where am I wrong, which part of my logic is flawed? Just admit I was right and we can move on.

[salmonbuddie]

If you want people to discuss things with you then maybe you should be a bit less condescending.

You are talking to people with a great deal more intelligence than you are giving them credit for  so a little respect wouldnt go amiss.

Wow. Just wow.

 

I'm so impressed I'm going to give you a comment I only ever gave StuD - Carlsberg doesn't do irony, but if it did...

 

[stlucifer]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I am not happy that after 9 or 11 years of intensive schooling, so many people are unable to understand how to budget properly or to prioritise food over everything else.

You're right. How the feck can these people not prioritise food over heating, accommodation and clothes for their kids. Stupid B@st@rds. We should line them up and shoot them to reduce the pressure on the foodbanks for those who really need them.

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Are you still claiming all of these families have absolutely zero money coming in?

Not zero money no , but enough to live on paying household bills and so on. I doubt it. 

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

2 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

You're right. How the feck can these people not prioritise food over heating, accommodation and clothes for their kids. Stupid B@st@rds. We should line them up and shoot them to reduce the pressure on the foodbanks for those who really need them.

Oaksoft is looking through a tunnel which makes it hard to grasp why food banks are there in the first place. Bet he does not realise how many children are in poverty in 2017

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

4 million children in the UK live in poverty waiting for Oaksoft to have another tunnel vision answer 

[Bellside Bud]

8 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

Full Fact?  Yer having a laugh.

"this interesting little non-profit company, headed by Tory Party donor and AnneFreud Centre Chairman Michael Samuel,"

So tell me, if you accept Full Fact's version, is it acceptable and are you happy that hundreds of thousands of people have had to depend on food banks in such a wealthy country?  A country where the wealthy use their cash and privilege to generate shit websites and suppress the information that shows just how far ahead they are of the poor in terms of life opportunities.

Oh sorry. Would you believe the Trussel Trust instead? 

https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/end-year-stats/

You'll notice the stats are exactly as quoted but why trust the source when rumour and innuendo are obviously so much more accurate. 

 

[Bellside Bud]

2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

4 million children in the UK live in poverty waiting for Oaksoft to have another tunnel vision answer 

You won't need to wait on Oaksoft. The Rowntree Foundations stats - which you quote - on poverty are based on a figure of 60% of median income. As anyone who attended an arithmetic class at school will know that when you work off median values you are bound to get examples that are much higher than median and some that are much lower. In other words the more successful we get in the UK and the more wages we all earn, the greater the number of people who fall below this median line. 

 

[Bellside Bud]

2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Oaksoft is looking through a tunnel which makes it hard to grasp why food banks are there in the first place. Bet he does not realise how many children are in poverty in 2017

I think you'll find that the reason for the increase in the number of people attending foodbanks was covered in the article on that full facts website. The more food banks there are - the more people will be sent to them. If you have 50 food banks around the country it is unlikely that many people will be sent on a long expensive journey to a distant food bank to get a few bags of free food. If you increase the numbers of food banks massively - as has happened in recent years - and you put one in every town it suddenly becomes far more economic and reasonable to refer a person to a food bank. 

There are other factors of course but it's not as straightforward as you are claiming. It's not simply a case of government cuts = more poor people. 

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

1 hour ago, Bellside Bud said:

I think you'll find that the reason for the increase in the number of people attending foodbanks was covered in the article on that full facts website. The more food banks there are - the more people will be sent to them. If you have 50 food banks around the country it is unlikely that many people will be sent on a long expensive journey to a distant food bank to get a few bags of free food. If you increase the numbers of food banks massively - as has happened in recent years - and you put one in every town it suddenly becomes far more economic and reasonable to refer a person to a food bank. 

There are other factors of course but it's not as straightforward as you are claiming. It's not simply a case of government cuts = more poor people. 

Maybe it's just me though I don't think so have seen people first  hand who need help. I'm sure you would change your view if you would volunteer your services for a few hours for one day at a food bank.  So go on find out the truth for yourself rather than reading a view with someone who agrees with your opinion. 

 

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Not zero money no , but enough to live on paying household bills and so on. I doubt it. 

You DOUBT it?

So you are on your bandwagon but you dont actually know?

Fair enough, I am using logic to make my own mind up and argue my case.

What are you using to conclude that this is anything other than the inability to budget properly in the majority of cases?

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, stlucifer said:

You're right. How the feck can these people not prioritise food over heating, accommodation and clothes for their kids. Stupid B@st@rds. We should line them up and shoot them to reduce the pressure on the foodbanks for those who really need them.

Yeah its a bit more complicated than that.

One of them was in the news recently talking about needing £160 a week for food.

These people simply dont know how to budget.

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Oaksoft is looking through a tunnel which makes it hard to grasp why food banks are there in the first place. Bet he does not realise how many children are in poverty in 2017

Stay focussed and explain your logic behind your viewpoint. Posts like this are not necessary. Leave that to salmonbuddie.

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

4 million children in the UK live in poverty waiting for Oaksoft to have another tunnel vision answer 

Absolute bollox.

Look you need to think this through. We absolutely do not have this number of children in poverty.

Think about it FFS. Assume 1.5 parents on average to account for single and double parent families.

You are actually claiming that between 6. and 10 million individuals are in poverty in the UK.

Up to 1 in 6 of the population are starving and in need of foodbanks?

That is ridiculous.

How can you believe this?

Edited September 1, 2017 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

You won't need to wait on Oaksoft. The Rowntree Foundations stats - which you quote - on poverty are based on a figure of 60% of median income. As anyone who attended an arithmetic class at school will know that when you work off median values you are bound to get examples that are much higher than median and some that are much lower. In other words the more successful we get in the UK and the more wages we all earn, the greater the number of people who fall below this median line. 

 

The JRF were recently claiming that families on £38k per year were under the poverty line.

This sort of ludicrous claim seriously devalues the real problem and diverts resources away from those who really need it.

[oaksoft]

37 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Maybe it's just me though I don't think so have seen people first  hand who need help. I'm sure you would change your view if you would volunteer your services for a few hours for one day at a food bank.  So go on find out the truth for yourself rather than reading a view with someone who agrees with your opinion. 

 

Absolutely nobody is claiming that there are not people in genuine need.

We are discussing the scale of it and how to solve the problem rather than simply throw endless piles of cash at the issue.

We are handing out fish when we really need to be teaching them how to fish.

Both of us want to solve the problem but you and the others seem to want to hold the moral high ground for some reason and turn this into a farcical game of good versus evil. Your solution keeps people in dependency. My idea helps them stand on their own feet.

I think you guys mean well but whilst your hearts are in the right place, your brains most certainly are not. Not one of you is thinking or presenting a logical argument. Its all left wing handwrigning,  whinging about the rich and personal abuse to those who know your views are wrong.

Edited September 1, 2017 by oaksoft

[stlucifer]

22 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Absolutely nobody is claiming that there are not people in genuine need.

We are discussing the scale of it and how to solve the problem rather than simply throw endless piles of cash at the issue.

We are handing out fish when we really need to be teaching them how to fish.

Both of us want to solve the problem but you and the others seem to want to hold the moral high ground for some reason and turn this into a farcical game of good versus evil. Your solution keeps people in dependency. My idea helps them stand on their own feet.

I think you guys mean well but whilst your hearts are in the right place, your brains most certainly are not. Not one of you is thinking or presenting a logical argument. Its all left wing handwrigning,  whinging about the rich and personal abuse to those who know your views are wrong.

Not from where I sit. Your idea is to tell people to live within their means even if those means are so meagre decisions have to be made between eating or heating. You hold the "Thatcher view" that greed is good and feck those left behind. To allow you to feel good about this you create a myth that the vast majority of those who claim poverty are sponging liars. You can claim all you want that nobody is in severe need in this country but it doesn't make it true but, hey ho. If it allows you to sleep at night to believe this then, Sweet dreams.

[Bellside Bud]

1 hour ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Maybe it's just me though I don't think so have seen people first  hand who need help. I'm sure you would change your view if you would volunteer your services for a few hours for one day at a food bank.  So go on find out the truth for yourself rather than reading a view with someone who agrees with your opinion. 

 

The truth is there isn't millions of people across the UK using food banks. You exaggerated, or more precisely you rather lazily repeated an exaggeration of the circumstances as outlined by politicians and political activists who right minded people know never to trust. Sadly others jumped in to defend your exaggeration too and that's the only reason I posted. 

Now unless you are claiming you served up millions of people during your volunteer session at a single food bank - what an incredibly large food bank that would have to be - I don't think you'll have any clue to the extent of food bank usage in the UK. Certainly not more so than the Trussell Trust themselves. 

Discussing the rise in food bank usage on a thread about Kezia Dugdale is more than a bit bizarre. Unlike Theresa May, David Cameron, Gordon Brown,  Nick Clegg, Tony Blair, Nicola Sturgeon and Alex Salmond she's never been in a position to put policies in place that might stop people needing to visit a food bank. 

Edited September 1, 2017 by Bellside Bud

[Drew]

On 08/31/2017 at 7:44 PM, oaksoft said:

That is the usual excuse but actually it is simply an inability to budget.

I think setting up classes to show these people how to do the basic arithmetic needed to survive would be very valuable.

We cant just keep throwing money at people. They need ACTUAL practical help, not left wing handwringing pish.

Classes.

Ironic.

[beyond our ken]

4 hours ago, Bellside Bud said:

Oh sorry. Would you believe the Trussel Trust instead? 

https://www.trusselltrust.org/news-and-blog/latest-stats/end-year-stats/

You'll notice the stats are exactly as quoted but why trust the source when rumour and innuendo are obviously so much more accurate. 

 

I believe the evidence of my own eyes and what comes from people. I trust who have to deal with inequality day in day out

How dare you align me to any source just because you were busted on the one you use?

 

Shame on you

[Guest TPAFKATS]

And to think that Dickson wrote he wouldn't be back. [emoji23]

Is Bellside a part of Wishaw or a nearby village?

[Bellside Bud]

1 hour ago, beyond our ken said:

I believe the evidence of my own eyes and what comes from people. I trust who have to deal with inequality day in day out

How dare you align me to any source just because you were busted on the one you use?

 

Shame on you

Busted? The Trussell Trust confirmed the figures. 

Shame on you for being so gullible as to believe ridiculous figures made up by those with a political agenda. 

[oaksoft]

10 hours ago, stlucifer said:

Not from where I sit. Your idea is to tell people to live within their means even if those means are so meagre decisions have to be made between eating or heating. You hold the "Thatcher view" that greed is good and feck those left behind. To allow you to feel good about this you create a myth that the vast majority of those who claim poverty are sponging liars. You can claim all you want that nobody is in severe need in this country but it doesn't make it true but, hey ho. If it allows you to sleep at night to believe this then, Sweet dreams.

Nope you are wrong.

I am saying that if they are taught how to budget they can both eat and heat.

I think a lack of education is at the root of the problem for the vast majority of these people.

It's a problem which is easily fixed but left wingers just don't want to hear it because it means accepting personal responsibility.

IMO that is the truth of it.

I really don't know where you are getting this venom from TBH.

[salmonbuddie]

Nope you are wrong.
I am saying that if they are taught how to budget they can both eat and heat.
I think a lack of education is at the root of the problem for the vast majority of these people.
It's a problem which is easily fixed but left wingers just don't want to hear it because it means accepting personal responsibility.
IMO that is the truth of it.
I really don't know where you are getting this venom from TBH.

He's not wrong, you are, so very, very, wrong in so many different ways.

What are you doing about it to change it? Nothing, except coming on here and telling everyone it's easy to fix.

You don't care, you're doing fine, and that's precisely the point that's being made.