Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
beyond our ken

Carillion collapse

Recommended Posts

As well as being sad for those directly affected, I can't help but feel anger at this one .  

High time that companies whose shareholders take dividends without meeting their pension fund committments  are automatically investigated and trading on their shares stopped.  it is one of the most obvious signs that the directors are ready to cut and run at any time.

A Scottish businessman was on the news today saying that  the new government contracts were a sign of confidence in Carillion, so he took their work and is now out by a million quid.  One of many

Where the hell is Grayling?  They are putting out minion number 300 in the form of Liddington out front to take the flak instead of the ministers who inked those contracts.

Meanwhile, labour are using it to push the state ownership agenda rather than nailing the tories on this one.  Making noises but, to me, showing that they do not want to be ANYWHERE near government until the Brexit pishfest is settled.  These zealots want to see a stricken country left in ruins so that they can come in and start building their socialist dream when the tories are chased.

the current reality is horrible and I thought it couldn't get much worse, but the future looks awful for this country.

Edited by beyond our ken

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to mention their auditors KPMG who I believe took £1.8m out of Carillion last year.     There's been plenty instances before of auditors letting big companies off the hook for having highly dubious accounts.   It's some gravy train for the likes of KPMG  and EY.    All in it together you might be tempted to say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They made their sub contractors wait 3 months for their money and then when they were due to pay they demanded a discount , then they blamed the banks for not supporting the small companies . .and meantime they were getting fortunes off the government. .


It was 120 days, and they offered an ‘express payment’ which was either 60 or 90 days ( I don’t know which to be honest) for a small fee of course...

Absolutely atrocious practice and I can’t believe they got away with it unfortunately the smaller contractors need the work and couldn’t tell them to ram it.

I worked for them about 10 years ago when they took over McAlpines and they were a horrible company then

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, foxbar_bud said:

 


It was 120 days, and they offered an ‘express payment’ which was either 60 or 90 days ( I don’t know which to be honest) for a small fee of course...

Absolutely atrocious practice and I can’t believe they got away with it unfortunately the smaller contractors need the work and couldn’t tell them to ram it.

I worked for them about 10 years ago when they took over McAlpines and they were a horrible company then

 

Nearly as bad as KPMG. .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TPAFKATS

The system is rotten.
This is on the back of other scandals like virgin rail where the taxpayer is left to pick up the cost when private companies make a loss.
The process of letting the private sector run public services only helps the directors and hedge funds. Socialism for the very rich, unregulated capitalism for the rest of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Working in the engineering industry it is concerning to see that happening to a big company.  Sadly many of these companies seem to be "finger in too many pies" doing everything from providing school cleaning to major construction. Just too big really.

I can understand the government handing out new contracts to them recently though. They wouldn't have just chosen Carillion, that isn't allowed (with some exceptions) and they would have won a competitive tender. Public procurement is a difficult thing, despite doing a lot of bids, I wouldn't consider myself an expert in it. Whilst you can be removed from lists based on financial health, I don't know how, under the systems I bid through, that you could be disbarred when above the surface financially  it seemed 'manageable' with accountants approving books and banks supporting 

8 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

The system is rotten.
This is on the back of other scandals like virgin rail where the taxpayer is left to pick up the cost when private companies make a loss.
The process of letting the private sector run public services only helps the directors and hedge funds. Socialism for the very rich, unregulated capitalism for the rest of us.

Virgin rail was a storm in a teacup. Not anywhere near close in scale. The idea the taxpayer will lose out on that one is a bit laughable. 

It's difficult to say that. Sometimes the private sector has done fairly well in running public services. The issue is ensuring it is procured correctly and valued right. It can make sense however it can be terrible when it's wrong. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TPAFKATS
Working in the engineering industry it is concerning to see that happening to a big company.  Sadly many of these companies seem to be "finger in too many pies" doing everything from providing school cleaning to major construction. Just too big really.
I can understand the government handing out new contracts to them recently though. They wouldn't have just chosen Carillion, that isn't allowed (with some exceptions) and they would have won a competitive tender. Public procurement is a difficult thing, despite doing a lot of bids, I wouldn't consider myself an expert in it. Whilst you can be removed from lists based on financial health, I don't know how, under the systems I bid through, that you could be disbarred when above the surface financially  it seemed 'manageable' with accountants approving books and banks supporting 
Virgin rail was a storm in a teacup. Not anywhere near close in scale. The idea the taxpayer will lose out on that one is a bit laughable. 
It's difficult to say that. Sometimes the private sector has done fairly well in running public services. The issue is ensuring it is procured correctly and valued right. It can make sense however it can be terrible when it's wrong. 
I'm not suggesting virgin rail is on the same scale as carillion. I used it as another example of how the current system is f**ked up.

Why do you think it's laughable?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

I'm not suggesting virgin rail is on the same scale as carillion. I used it as another example of how the current system is f**ked up.

Why do you think it's laughable?

Because people think that there has been a bailout. There hasn't been and  Virgin East Coast has handed over more money to the government than when it was operated by the public sector in Directly Operated Railways. There is fault on both sides of that instance, public and private.. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest TPAFKATS
Because people think that there has been a bailout. There hasn't been and  Virgin East Coast has handed over more money to the government than when it was operated by the public sector in Directly Operated Railways. There is fault on both sides of that instance, public and private.. 
Virgin were due to hand over around 2bn until they decided to bail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two months on...........

Quote

So far 1,600 Carillion employees have been made redundant, 10,000 hived off elsewhere, with these museum staff among 7,000 still floating. They are at the mercy of PricewaterhouseCoopers, the administrator sifting the wreckage. Or, as the work and pensions committee chair, Frank Field, said last week, first “milking the Carillion cow dry” as pension advisers and now re-emerging “as butcher, packaging up joints of the fallen beast to be flogged off”.

At last week’s Commons hearing, the business committee chair, Rachel Reeves, expressed shock at PwC seizing £20.4m in fees from Carillion’s carcass in its first eight weeks’ work. She extracted from David Kelly, PwC man in charge, that he paid himself £865 an hour – nearly 116 times the £7.50 minimum wage of some cleaners. Administrators take first pickings, while debtors, 30,000 suppliers and the £900m pension deficit can expect little.

.....is anyone surprised?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Public procurement is a joke with too much emphasis on the cost and not enough on the quality for that cost, very "never mind the quality feel the width" until it all comes crashing down as the service cannot be delivered or a very poor one is.

 

Not just carillion or virgin, there is also TATA (TCS) at the DBS in England and many other examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nearly 5 million self employed people in the UK are capable of the simple act of looking after their own pensions.

Is there something wrong with employees that they can't adopt some personal responsibility and do the same thing?

In 2017 there is absolutely no reason to burden an employer with employee pensions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 17/01/2018 at 9:58 AM, TPAFKATS said:


The process of letting the private sector run public services only helps the directors and hedge funds. 

No it doesn't. You will find many pension companies investing in shares of large companies - particularly those in the Utilities sector. You will also find ISA investors in there. Most of us are indirectly shareholders of all of these companies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

No it doesn't. You will find many pension companies investing in shares of large companies - particularly those in the Utilities sector. You will also find ISA investors in there. Most of us are indirectly shareholders of all of these companies.

Welcome back ya fanny. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Nearly 5 million self employed people in the UK are capable of the simple act of looking after their own pensions.

Is there something wrong with employees that they can't adopt some personal responsibility and do the same thing?

In 2017 there is absolutely no reason to burden an employer with employee pensions.

What about this year?  Have you been in jail and refused internet privileges this last few months?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Nearly 5 million self employed people in the UK are capable of the simple act of looking after their own pensions.

Actually, 45% of self employed under 55 have no pension and that figure is growing by the day thanks to the gig economy.  30% of the self employed over 55 are going to be reliant on the state.   You make it sound as if it's the fault of the workers when pension deficits are suddenly discovered when it's the fault of the money grubbing scum (Managers, Directors and the like) who award themselves huge bonuses and investors who want unrealistic dividends, none of which are actually based on company performance.  They also defraud he tax man by not paying PAYE and NI despite deducting it from the employees (and don't get me started on the self employed and tax paid).

Edited by rabuddies
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, rabuddies said:

Actually, 45% of self employed under 55 have no pension and that figure is growing by the day thanks to the gig economy.  30% of the self employed over 55 are going to be reliant on the state.   You make it sound as if it's the fault of the workers when pension deficits are suddenly discovered when it's the fault of the money grubbing scum (Managers, Directors and the like) who award themselves huge bonuses and investors who want unrealistic dividends, none of which are actually based on company performance.  They also defraud he tax man by not paying PAYE and NI despite deducting it from the employees (and don't get me started on the self employed and tax paid).

If that is true then it is surely their problem. They will have paid NI contributions and will be entitled to this universal benefit like everyone else. Why is it the responsibility of employers to get involved in this?

Pension deficits wouldn't even be a thing if employers weren't involved but I am not taling about fraud anyway, I am talking about why grown men and women can't just be left to pay their own pensions. I would also ask why companies are being asked to collect personal tax and NI as well. Employees are perfectly capable of sorting their own finances out. Why are employers forced to get involved?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, faraway saint said:

Welcome back ya fanny. :D

I am not "back".  There hasn't been a decent discussion on here for months so no reason to get involved.

I almost didn't post on this thread but employee benefits are something taken for granted and apparently beyond being questioned. I thought I would ask some fairly simple questions because a lot of this stuff leaves me scratching my head. I think our entire culture is based on dependency. Our schools and universities are specifically designed to produce employees. We distrust business owners and the self employed and use derogatory phrases like "gig economy". That is a serious problem for anyone who thinks we can be an independent country. We need far more entrepeneurs and self employed people.

Edited by oaksoft

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, cockles1987 said:


 

 

 


I thought a educated man like yourself wouldn't have such a large presumption. emoji106.png

 

 

They pay national insurance contributions thus qualifying them for a state pension. 

I think it is fair to say that almost all of them do that each year or our courts would be full.

According to rabbuddies 55% of them are actively topping that up with personal pensions. What exactly do you think I am being presumptive about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nearly 5 million self employed people in the UK are capable of the simple act of looking after their own pensions.

Is there something wrong with employees that they can't adopt some personal responsibility and do the same thing?

In 2017 there is absolutely no reason to burden an employer with employee pensions.

I agree. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But I'd take it a few  steps further. 

Why bother employers with the burden of holiday pay?

Why bother employers with the burden of maternity/paternity?

Why bother employers with the burden of decent working conditions?

If folk don't have the requisite  skills for a high paying job, let them feed on the scraps...

Edited by civilsaint

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Nearly 5 million self employed people in the UK are capable of the simple act of looking after their own pensions.

Is there something wrong with employees that they can't adopt some personal responsibility and do the same thing?

In 2017 there is absolutely no reason to burden an employer with employee pensions.

If you think that contracts of employment should not contain the standard Ts &Cs then fair enough.  But remember the self-employed usually factor in the cost of their holidays, pensions, etc into their contracts, often at the behest of the client.  Are you saying every employer should be further burdened with negotiating a personal contract on bespoke terms with every single employee?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I am not "back".  There hasn't been a decent discussion on here for months so no reason to get involved.

I almost didn't post on this thread but employee benefits are something taken for granted and apparently beyond being questioned. I thought I would ask some fairly simple questions because a lot of this stuff leaves me scratching my head. I think our entire culture is based on dependency. Our schools and universities are specifically designed to produce employees. We distrust business owners and the self employed and use derogatory phrases like "gig economy". That is a serious problem for anyone who thinks we can be an independent country. We need far more entrepeneurs and self employed people.

employers depend on employees turning up and doing work, there is nothing wrong with dependency.

Most of the self-employed do work that is outwith the scope of an employer's core business, or work that cannot be guaranteed.  Fine, if everyone is paid enough to see them through the peaks and troughs, but if you are tied to one business for your work then you are essentially an employee.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Margaret Hilda Thatcher:

"There is no such thing as society: there are individual men and women, and there are families."

Some contributors to the topic seem to favour this argument whilst others don't.

I am somewhere in the middle.

I worked in a large organisation for 26 years and largely enjoyed it and benefited from good conditions.

I have run my own businesses for 26 years and largely enjoyed it and made my own provisions for pension etc 

Much to be said on both sides and I think that a mixed economy is preferable.

Changes in tax, pensions and benefits are underway to level the playing field between the employed and self employed.

Agree that the Greed is Good mantra espoused in the film Wall Street has shifted the balance in favour of Capital,

Time to balance that out. If "society" exits then it will force the change but I expect resistance.

When "Labour" held the upper hand in the 70's change was needed but resisted.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...