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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

RIght, but we are clever folks around these parts and can do the arithmetic ourselves.

In fact I have already shown my figures elsewhere.

The stand holds 1633 people and we will be charging £27 for away adults which makes it around £130k.

But of course there will be many kids and concessions, staffing costs, policing, utility bills and tax to pay. We are compensating the family stand season ticket holders as well.

There is no way the total post tax income will be 6 figures. Nowhere near it. You need to stop and think about what you are saying here. It's disingenious to talk about 6 figures when we cannot expect to pocket that for players or anything else. It's total bullshit in fact.

We are whoring ourselves and f**king over the entire family stand of season ticket holders for what looks about £60k or £70k (around 2% of our turnover) and we are setting a precedent here for this to continue until we own the club as fans when hopefully this embarassment can be brought to a swift halt. Not everything can be about money. You can lose your soul when it does. 

They didn't say 'total post tax income' I only said what I believe they said (your ask), not sure I need to stop and think about anything further when it comes to answering your question. However to play devil’s advocate:

As you've said £27 is likely and it will be an up to figure so let’s base it on a top six finish. Remember the announcement was for both sides of the bigot brothers. 

1,633 adults, £27, four games = £176,364

Taking a reserved approach let’s say only 60% of them are adults that's still £105,818. Don't know what the kids price is but let’s say a reserved £14. So £36,579  

Total up to ticket price income = £142,397 

Say everyone generates £1 profit at the pie stall (again reserved) £6,532

So close to £150k 

We will have police costs of course, the Rangers and Celtic League cup semi-final in February 2015 cost just under £38k to police, it will be considerably less for us (as in massively less) let's say 50k fans at Hampden vs roughly 7,000 here and the fact we aren't Celtic, I'd say 1/10 is another reserved estimate. (Also bear in mind we'd still be paying increased police cost for one stand regardless)

Income - £150k (up to)

Police cost - £4k (rounded up) 

Compensation for family stand, other staff costs and utility bills (whatever they are) - £20k (I'm overestimating considerably I'd say) 

£150k - £24k 

Pre-tax profit up to £126k Not sure what the tax would be but an argument could be made about post tax profits as well. 

Considering the average annual wage Motherwell and St Johnstone were paying players last season was under £50k, it could be a couple players. 

 

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19 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

So something he said over two seasons ago should be hounded against the man forever more? Because of one interview he's a liar and went against his very core principles. Harsh but not at all suprising from some of the anti SMISA/ SMFC crowd. 

And there you just alienated yourself to what appears to be the majority's thinking on this. Calling St Mirren fans anti SMFC is a disgusting school child response of someone who's lost an argument. You keep calling anyone with a differing opinion on here, or elsewhere Anti SMFC and i really fear for you.

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10 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

They didn't say 'total post tax income' I only said what I believe they said (your ask), not sure I need to stop and think about anything further when it comes to answering your question. However to play devil’s advocate:

As you've said £27 is likely and it will be an up to figure so let’s base it on a top six finish. Remember the announcement was for both sides of the bigot brothers. 

1,633 adults, £27, four games = £176,364

Taking a reserved approach let’s say only 60% of them are adults that's still £105,818. Don't know what the kids price is but let’s say a reserved £14. So £36,579  

Total up to ticket price income = £142,397 

Say everyone generates £1 profit at the pie stall (again reserved) £6,532

So close to £150k 

We will have police costs of course, the Rangers and Celtic League cup semi-final in February 2015 cost just under £38k to police, it will be considerably less for us (as in massively less) let's say 50k fans at Hampden vs roughly 7,000 here and the fact we aren't Celtic, I'd say 1/10 is another reserved estimate. (Also bear in mind we'd still be paying increased police cost for one stand regardless)

Income - £150k (up to)

Police cost - £4k (rounded up) 

Compensation for family stand, other staff costs and utility bills (whatever they are) - £20k (I'm overestimating considerably I'd say) 

£150k - £24k 

Pre-tax profit up to £126k Not sure what the tax would be but an argument could be made about post tax profits as well. 

Considering the average annual wage Motherwell and St Johnstone were paying players last season was under £50k, it could be a couple players. 

 

It's 3 games not 4 so your first calculation is wrong. Everything else after that needs to be reworked but as an estimate you are looking at 0.75 times your final figure of £126k. That is about £90k and then we pay tax on that of somewhere around north of 20%-ish. That would get you to roughly £70k which is what I roughly estimated before. That is not enough money for us to be engaging in this.

I think we have outsourced the catering so presumably we only get rent from them and not a cut of their turnover. Not a major bit of income either way though.

Edited by oaksoft

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5 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

 

Say everyone generates £1 profit at the pie stall (again reserved) £6,532

 

 

Are the pie stalls not tendered out?

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43 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

And there you just alienated yourself to what appears to be the majority's thinking on this. Calling St Mirren fans anti SMFC is a disgusting school child response of someone who's lost an argument. You keep calling anyone with a differing opinion on here, or elsewhere Anti SMFC and i really fear for you.

Based on? Majority comments on here were against the £50k for Ralston but it won by a landslide. 

You don't consider yourself anti SMISA/ SMFC? But you never have anything positive to say about them... ever. Could of fooled me. 

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40 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's 3 games not 4 so your first calculation is wrong. Everything else after that needs to be reworked but as an estimate you are looking at 0.75 times your final figure of £126k. That is about £90k and then we pay tax on that of somewhere around north of 20%-ish. That would get you to roughly £70k which is what I roughly estimated before. That is not enough money for us to be engaging in this.

I think we have outsourced the catering so presumably we only get rent from them and not a cut of their turnover. Not a major bit of income either way though.

Four games if we get in top six, again it's based on an 'up to' calculation. Right now we have three, we finish top six we have four. So if you're saying based on three is £75k, we agree that four would be about £100k or over after tax? 

Even looking at your figures 75% of £126k is £94.500 and I think most would agree it is very reserved, so GLS comment is pretty much correct anyway I'm looking at it. Nothing ever mentioned 'after tax' very common in football. If someone says Ronaldo is now on £600k a week, it isn't a post tax figure. 

 

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41 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Whoops. My tax calculation is based on Corporation Tax only. I forgot to include VAT as well which is another 20%.

This is actually worse than I thought.

Remember a proportion of all income is tax free as well and expenses can be written off before tax. tax doesn't kick in at the first £1

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3 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Remember a proportion of all income is tax free as well and expenses can be written off before tax. tax doesn't kick in at the first £1

Baring in mind Baz that this is a Ltd Company we are talking about and this is additional revenue, how much of it would be tax-free??

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19 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Four games if we get in top six, again it's based on an 'up to' calculation. Right now we have three, we finish top six we have four. So if you're saying based on three is £75k, we agree that four would be about £100k or over after tax? 

Even looking at your figures 75% of £126k is £94.500 and I think most would agree it is very reserved, so GLS comment is pretty much correct anyway I'm looking at it. Nothing ever mentioned 'after tax' very common in football. If someone says Ronaldo is now on £600k a week, it isn't a post tax figure. 

 

Yes but when you then misrepresent the gross figure to demonstrate that you can use all of it to buy players then you are engaging in total bullshit. Your comparison is invalid. We are not talking about an individual. We are talking about a company and it is being sold to us as a means to buy players. That means you absolutely cannot talk about the gross turnover. We should only work with figures we can guarantee and that is 3 OF visits and not 4. Anything above 3 is a nice bonus but using 4 by default is using fantasy figures.

You are also using your figure as "up to" but my resultant figure as "very reserved". On what basis would my figures be "very reserved"?

Oh, by the way, we are assuming that the west stand tickets that the OF will no longer be getting will be fully taken up by Saints fans. I am prepared to bet whatever you like that this will not happen.

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9 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Remember a proportion of all income is tax free as well and expenses can be written off before tax. tax doesn't kick in at the first £1

Yes but by the time this scheme brings in money we will be well over any tax-free limits.

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26 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

Yep but they're tendered out as a contract. Contract is based on the value to the company and value to SMFC. 

It's basically subletting though, we dont get a cut of profits and it will be driven by the market and not what Saints want.

Edited by oaksoft

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2 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Yes but by the time this scheme brings in money we will be well over any tax-free limits.

In fairness to Baz Oaky, as long as we spend all the money raised then there is no actual "tax" to be paid on it, it would only be if it was retained as profit (or unspent). 

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8 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Baring in mind Baz that this is a Ltd Company we are talking about and this is additional revenue, how much of it would be tax-free??

It won't be reported as seperate revenue it will be reported with all the rest of our income minus costs, one of the main reasons why income figures like this are done before tax, very difficult for anyone to know what the tax will be.

Anyway you look at it, the up to income before tax is high and the after tax is still likely to be around the £100k point. I think the important thing to remember is, there has never been anyone (including me) saying the claim was 'after-tax' 

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3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

It's basically subletting though and it will be driven by the market and not what Saints want.

The same as everything else though isn't it? Ticket prices, merchandise, sponsor income, all is driven by the market. When the contract is arranged, there will be disucssions about footfall. Having games with an extra 1,500+ Celtic/ Rangers fans = a stronger negotiation position because more food will be sold. 

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2 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

In fairness to Baz Oaky, as long as we spend all the money raised then there is no actual "tax" to be paid on it, it would only be if it was retained as profit (or unspent). 

Actually, that is a very reasonable point.

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Just now, bazil85 said:

It won't be reported as seperate revenue it will be reported with all the rest of our income minus costs, one of the main reasons why income figures like this are done before tax, very difficult for anyone to know what the tax will be.

Anyway you look at it, the up to income before tax is high and the after tax is still likely to be around the £100k point. I think the important thing to remember is, there has never been anyone (including me) saying the claim was 'after-tax' 

Whether it is or isn't separate revenue is irrelevant there would be no "tax-free" benefit, that said you've almost covered it in the first line of your answer.

The only way not to pay tax on it is to have no profit from it which is what would happen if it was spent on wages/fees etc.

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4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

The same as everything else though isn't it? Ticket prices, merchandise, sponsor income, all is driven by the market. When the contract is arranged, there will be disucssions about footfall. Having games with an extra 1,500+ Celtic/ Rangers fans = a stronger negotiation position because more food will be sold. 

I guess it will depend on how long the contract is for and how many bidders there are. If there is only one company then it won't necessarily matter how much Saints want. On this point, we cannot be ceratin and anyway, the gains are fairly marginal as your numbers show.

WeeBud has dismantled both of our arguments on tax but I still think claims of 6 figures is seriously spinning what we are actually likely to receive after the cost of doing all of this is taken into account,

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7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Yes but when you then misrepresent the gross figure to demonstrate that you can use all of it to buy players then you are engaging in total bullshit. Your comparison is invalid. We are not talking about an individual. We are talking about a company and it is being sold to us as a means to buy players. That means you absolutely cannot talk about the gross turnover. We should only work with figures we can guarantee and that is 3 OF visits and not 4. Anything above 3 is a nice bonus but using 4 by default is using fantasy figures.

You are also using your figure as "up to" but my resultant figure as "very reserved". On what basis would my figures be "very reserved"?

Oh, by the way, we are assuming that the west stand tickets that the OF will no longer be getting will be fully taken up by Saints fans. I am prepared to bet whatever you like that this will not happen.

No one is missrepresenting anyone. This is a comment in an update from the chairman about factual maximum income we can make from given them an extra stand. You've done the maths yourself, you can see it isn't bullshit. 

You are approaching it like GLS has made  a statement of income to Shareholders, he has not in any way, shape or form.

It's no different from saying 'a player is on £50k a week' We know the player won't get £50k a week, we know he'll get taxed. You don't see anyone going 'ah but tax' it's common knowledge. 

In regards to the games, the figures have always been positioned as up to. Why should they only do it as three? 1/4 season fixtures haven't been announced? The figure is speculative so why are they not allowed to speculate on our league position? Yet again it sounds like you're analysing this as reported figures and not a generic statement. 

I'd say It is pretty reserved to say only 60% of fans will be adults and to say a concession will be half the price of adult tickets. 

Your last sentence... I think you maybe have to have a check what 'up to' and it's similar expressions actually means :lol:

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6 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Whether it is or isn't separate revenue is irrelevant there would be no "tax-free" benefit, that said you've almost covered it in the first line of your answer.

The only way not to pay tax on it is to have no profit from it which is what would happen if it was spent on wages/fees etc.

What about VAT though? 

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