Sonny Posted August 19, 2018 Report Share Posted August 19, 2018 I haven't started this to have a go at any of the new signings but comments like 'you have to give them a few games in order to judge them' got me thinking. Do you have to give players several games to make an assessment? Over the years I have watched many players play only one game and knew these guys would make it or not make it. For example as a young lad I remember Gordon Strachan playing for Dundee Reserves at Love St as a 17year old and looked up his name in order to remember it as it was obvious the guy would reach the top. I remember Frank McGarvey coming on as a substitute against East Fife and knew he would make it. Likewise with Frank McAvennie and more recently players like Morgan, Mallan, John McGinn and Ethan Erhahon. How did I know? Not all these players played a blinder and we did not win all those debut games but it was obvious they had a talent, commitment, game awareness and commitment even as young teenagers. Their workrate was superb. So although the game itself may not have been great and they made mistakes you could tell these guys had something to offer. But what about lesser players or older players? Again it was not the result or how the rest of the team played that was important but did they demonstrate some talent, attitude,workrate and game intelligence in their debut? I remember watching DVZ on his debut and thinking he'll be ok - not great but ok. Likewise Paul McGown who turned out to be a decent player after a decent debut. And watching the likes of Sonupe, Tonet and Marwood and thinking that no way are they good enough even after one game. I did not need to see them 6 times in order to make an assessment of them. As a footballer I was rubbish. No-one needed six games to tell me I was rubbish - one viewing was all that was required. And I struggle to think of too many players that I have been spectacularly wrong with in a general assessment. Either guys that bombed or turned about to be great when I had written them off. I was very wrong about Mooy whom I hadn't written off but thought he could be ok him but did not expect him to reach the heights that he has. I was also wrong about Stevie Archibald who was rubbish for us when I had great expectations but it was obvious early on that he wasn't going to reach previous high standards that he had with other clubs. I am sure there have been others that I have dismissed that turned out well and some that bombed when I thought they would be great but I reckon my average is as decent as any fan who has watched new players regularly for decades. But how many games does it take to make a judgement? Not many I reckon. But I am sure you all have your own examples of players that were mince on their debut but turned out good and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portmahomack saint Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 I would say it takes me about 20mins to spot a good player and between 10 and 45mins to spot a lets say one that`s not very good , a few good ones that spring to mind are. Davie Cooper John McGinn Barry Robson who stood out like a sore thumb playing for Caley for 5year and Paul Lambert who it took 9yrs before being spotted by Ottmar Hitzfeld, and they ask what`s wrong with Scottish football, as for the duds to many to mention. and that's just this season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 Some players do stand out from others. in Scottish football over recent years, Ryan Gauld stood out for me. Why he hasn't kicked on in Portugal defeats me. Shows how much / little I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soctty Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 Some people think they can judge a player after one game, but that's flawed. Players can bust a gut to impress in their first game, meaning you get a false impression of their effort level and they can play above themselves that one time. Other players can suffer from nerves in their first game, which can lead to writing off a player who will settle down to be a very good player. And that's before looking at things like fitness, sharpness, getting to know team mates and tactics of the new club, and getting used to their surroundings. I'd never write off a player after one, or even a few games, although I have decided a player is a great signing after one game before, with varying results once they settled into their normal game. Stickroth was one who looked like he had the makings of a star, but rarely applied himself after his trial sub appearance against Rangers. Some players have the talent but not the drive, others the determination but not the ability. It's very difficult to say for certain on limited evidence how successful a player will be for us, so I don't get why so many try to do this instant assessment thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 1 minute ago, Soctty said: Some people think they can judge a player after one game, but that's flawed. Players can bust a gut to impress in their first game, meaning you get a false impression of their effort level and they can play above themselves that one time. Other players can suffer from nerves in their first game, which can lead to writing off a player who will settle down to be a very good player. And that's before looking at things like fitness, sharpness, getting to know team mates and tactics of the new club, and getting used to their surroundings. I'd never write off a player after one, or even a few games, although I have decided a player is a great signing after one game before, with varying results once they settled into their normal game. Stickroth was one who looked like he had the makings of a star, but rarely applied himself after his trial sub appearance against Rangers. Some players have the talent but not the drive, others the determination but not the ability. It's very difficult to say for certain on limited evidence how successful a player will be for us, so I don't get why so many try to do this instant assessment thing. Your second paragraph makes a lot of sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 Aye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danny Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 mibbes aye mibbes naw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabuddies Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 Brian Clough didn't need 90 minutes. He said he could tell a player by his second touch. If he needed one he wasn't good enough! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 (edited) It is stupid to attempt to judge a player on one performance. Too often you either wrongly think they are going to be a star or a dud. The simple fact that their performance will depend on the rest of their team mates should highlight the need to judge the individual over several games. At least 6 full matches needed IMO. Edited August 20, 2018 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liverpool Bud Posted August 20, 2018 Report Share Posted August 20, 2018 As someone who has coached kids in England for over 25 years I find your question really interesting and I can tell you there is no simple answer anyone who has played the game to any standard will know who the ‘good’ players are! in my experience I’ve had kids both sign professionally for Liverpool and Everton and the interesting thing is they both came from crops of good teams but were perhaps not the ones who instantly stood out as the superstars but what did make them stand out was there ability to listen - do extra on the training ground and work incredibly hard in every session taking on board advice offered this isn’t always something the ‘more talented ‘ players did however recentjy a lad who was the laziest in training and on the pitch but bagged goals for fun started the NPL scholarship scheme for Warrington Town and has destroyed the league - do a move to league club will be in the offing as fans what we don’t see is the effort the players put in day in day out in training and around the club- everyone is a critic and think we can spot a player without knowing perhaps the tactics or tactical constraints the manager has asked of them to be fair to any individual I say four games gives every player to either do enough to justify their position in the team but if it’s blinding obvious that the player on the pitch is useless the manager needs to act immediately i refer you to Ali Dia who managed to convince then Southampton manager Graeme Souness he was cousin of then world player of year George Weah ( sound familiar !!?) who was sent on as a sub and subbed off 24 mins later when it was clearly apparently he was miles out of his depth ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 I thought that Paeslack and Stickroth were world beaters are making their debuts as subs.....Worryingly, evidently, so did the managers who signed them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munoz Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 17 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said: I thought that Paeslack and Stickroth were world beaters are making their debuts as subs..... Worryingly, evidently, so did the managers who signed them! Stickroth wasn't that bad. Worth the fee for that cross for Gunni. The less said about Paeslack the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MenstrieSaint Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 catch the right twenty minutes and most players can look like world beaters remember Stewart Kean being sensational for Saints against Hearts in a first chance when he scored two goals and missed a few chances he created himself , every time he touched the ball the Hearts defence panicked . Junior Mendes scored a superb hat trick against Clyde and looked a million pound player . Marc Corcoran against Motherwell in the Cup looked magnificent . Tony Bullock looked like a world class keeper against Hearts at Tynecastle , making a string of superb saves , during a 20 minute period in the first half . And then there was Tomas Stickroths first ten minutes in a Saints strip , he was simply superb . Reckon you need a few games to judge a player , and you see a players true worth when the team is two nil down . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stlucifer Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 50 minutes ago, MenstrieSaint said: catch the right twenty minutes and most players can look like world beaters remember Stewart Kean being sensational for Saints against Hearts in a first chance when he scored two goals and missed a few chances he created himself , every time he touched the ball the Hearts defence panicked . Junior Mendes scored a superb hat trick against Clyde and looked a million pound player . Marc Corcoran against Motherwell in the Cup looked magnificent . Tony Bullock looked like a world class keeper against Hearts at Tynecastle , making a string of superb saves , during a 20 minute period in the first half . And then there was Tomas Stickroths first ten minutes in a Saints strip , he was simply superb . Reckon you need a few games to judge a player , and you see a players true worth when the team is two nil down . I agree and anyone can put together a wee highlights package and make an average player look like Ronaldo. As far as Kean was concerned. I thought he looked like he had finally found his feet then got injured and never reached the heights again. I often wondered what might have been had he not been. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shull Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 hours ago, MenstrieSaint said: catch the right twenty minutes and most players can look like world beaters remember Stewart Kean being sensational for Saints against Hearts in a first chance when he scored two goals and missed a few chances he created himself , every time he touched the ball the Hearts defence panicked . Junior Mendes scored a superb hat trick against Clyde and looked a million pound player . Marc Corcoran against Motherwell in the Cup looked magnificent . Tony Bullock looked like a world class keeper against Hearts at Tynecastle , making a string of superb saves , during a 20 minute period in the first half . And then there was Tomas Stickroths first ten minutes in a Saints strip , he was simply superb . Reckon you need a few games to judge a player , and you see a players true worth when the team is two nil down . And Elliot looked shit hot as he penned his Contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted August 21, 2018 Report Share Posted August 21, 2018 And Elliot looked shit hot as he penned his Contract.After that he was just shit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Danny said: mibbes aye mibbes naw Is that you Sir Kenny? Are you fit to play? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munoz Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 When we signed Michael Higdon , I thought he was lazy and slow. He turned out not too bad for us. I think it's impossible/unfair to judge a player on one or two games . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 hours ago, munoz said: When we signed Michael Higdon , I thought he was lazy and slow. He turned out not too bad for us. I think it's impossible/unfair to judge a player on one or two games . Sometimes the best goal scorers are the ones who appear to be lazier, perhaps because they focus more on getting in the box than being out wide to get the ball. Kris Boyd has always been labelled lazy but his goalscoring record speaks for itself. Higdon scored more goals in one season that Dargo managed in his whole Saints career (across all competitions). Dargo was always praised as hard working etc but his finishing was shite. Meanwhile Higdon was criticised constantly for being "lazy". Once Billy Mehmet eventually got going his goals record was decent (more so in the cups than league) and he was always involved in the play, but him being pulled out of position meant he wasn't in the box to finish off the chances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 9 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said: Sometimes the best goal scorers are the ones who appear to be lazier, perhaps because they focus more on getting in the box than being out wide to get the ball. Kris Boyd has always been labelled lazy but his goalscoring record speaks for itself. Higdon scored more goals in one season that Dargo managed in his whole Saints career (across all competitions). Dargo was always praised as hard working etc but his finishing was shite. Meanwhile Higdon was criticised constantly for being "lazy". Once Billy Mehmet eventually got going his goals record was decent (more so in the cups than league) and he was always involved in the play, but him being pulled out of position meant he wasn't in the box to finish off the chances. If effort or activity Was The sole measurement of effect tiveness for a player or striker rather than goals, assists and completed passes then you might enable to judge but they are not. Positional sense and timing are key. IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 30 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: If effort or activity Was The sole measurement of effect tiveness for a player or striker rather than goals, assists and completed passes then you might enable to judge but they are not. Positional sense and timing are key. IMO Gareth Wardlaw springs to mind. He always put in 100% and worked his backside off. But the SPL was too much of a step for him and we didn't see the goals or assists needed. Could never fault the guy for giving his best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TediousTom Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 Yes To give you an example in support of my "yes" I can give you a player called James Gardner. Now James Gardner was signed by our club as part of the deal that saw Paul Lambert pack his bags for Lanarkshire. James was signed as a first team player and hopes were high that James was "better than what we had" and all the usual quotes that surround such a signing. Anyway I did not need 90 minutes to judge the talent of James, It was nearer 9 seconds. James Gardner lives long in the memory and has made many a "select 11" along with other legends like Bobby Law, Gary McVie and the such like. 9 seconds in this case, 9 bloody seconds indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Arthur Blair Posted August 22, 2018 Report Share Posted August 22, 2018 9 seconds in this case, 9 bloody seconds indeed.What took you so long? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windae cleaner Posted August 23, 2018 Report Share Posted August 23, 2018 23 hours ago, TediousTom said: Yes To give you an example in support of my "yes" I can give you a player called James Gardner. Now James Gardner was signed by our club as part of the deal that saw Paul Lambert pack his bags for Lanarkshire. James was signed as a first team player and hopes were high that James was "better than what we had" and all the usual quotes that surround such a signing. Anyway I did not need 90 minutes to judge the talent of James, It was nearer 9 seconds. James Gardner lives long in the memory and has made many a "select 11" along with other legends like Bobby Law, Gary McVie and the such like. 9 seconds in this case, 9 bloody seconds indeed. The brother in law works beside Mr Gardner at Scotrail I told him that Gardner is rated as the worse player witnessed in the stripes He thinks the title is unfair Mainly due that Motherwell ripped us right off There has been worse that Gardner who least scored a couple of goals There has been strikers who have never managed that feat Yes i'm still bitter with the value we got from Archibald,Wishart and Manley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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