How much to get rid

[St.Ricky]

22 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

The best way forward if this happened would be for the 40 other clubs to work together to develop a solid base on youth. Belgian clubs all got on board with the KBVB when they suggested change across youth. Years later we see the benefits of good, exciting football and many clubs being able to command good transfer fees for their players. Many of the attendances are less than Aberdeen, Hibs, Hearts etc, and none have the 50K+ the bigots get as there is more loyalty to local sides. But the Belgian league is 9th in the co-efficients, behind richer leagues. Excellent example for Scotland to follow whether or not this happens. It's easy to say we won't be able to attract the better players here, but if you play a part in creating them, you do yourself a big favour.

how does this work and how are revenues shared 

[st jock]

The only way we can get rid of them is if Sevco go bust like their predecessors. Celtic will then lose a bit of their bigoted fan base but make up the numbers with glory hunters as they will just power on regardless. Possibly then they may get invited to join another league. Who knows?

[DougJamie]

Emotionally I totally get this..................... its just we have always had our game controlled financially by the ugly sisters. The deals, the sponsorship and the world focus is around these two...

I also get the games would be better without them, and I do believe at some stage they will go to England. SKY at some stage will get bored with the format of silly wee English/Welsh teams adding nothing, but again I think that is years and years away.

 I just cant see any way this would work. The controlling bodies are sheep and chicken. The fact that they are happy what these two clubs self represent is not just degrading to our game but also our country................. for me, the balls need to grown with Maxwell and his cronies.

If, and its a huge if, teams refused to play them on mass then again something would give, but do we see this. Do the clubs out with  of the OF stand as one ?

Maybe Hearts winning the league might change it   

 

[magnus]

2 hours ago, DougJamie said:

Emotionally I totally get this..................... its just we have always had our game controlled financially by the ugly sisters. The deals, the sponsorship and the world focus is around these two...

I also get the games would be better without them, and I do believe at some stage they will go to England. SKY at some stage will get bored with the format of silly wee English/Welsh teams adding nothing, but again I think that is years and years away.

 I just cant see any way this would work. The controlling bodies are sheep and chicken. The fact that they are happy what these two clubs self represent is not just degrading to our game but also our country................. for me, the balls need to grown with Maxwell and his cronies.

If, and its a huge if, teams refused to play them on mass then again something would give, but do we see this. Do the clubs out with  of the OF stand as one ?

Maybe Hearts winning the league might change it   

 

Fans are more aligned against the OF than Clubs.  Football Clubs are businesses and must focus on making money or at least not losing too much money. Aberdeen would almost certainly side with the OF. Others likely to follow suit could include Kilmarnock and possibly us.

Edited September 17, 2018 by magnus

[St.Ricky]

2 hours ago, DougJamie said:

Emotionally I totally get this..................... its just we have always had our game controlled financially by the ugly sisters. The deals, the sponsorship and the world focus is around these two. i also get the games would be better without them, and I do believe at some stage they will go to England. SKY at some stage will get bored with the format of silly wee English/Welsh teams adding nothing, but again I think that is years and years away.

Said earlier in the thread that TV will ensure that changes happen for much the same reasons as DJ is pointing out. I differ though in that I feel the changes will come about by the top TV draws are invited to form a European League 1 and 2 or Similar. My basis for this is the large Diaspora of Irish and Scots across USA and Canada, Australia and through Scots influence in Ex Colonial Countries. Awareness of Celtic and Rangers is already high in these areas as it is, in my opinion, across Europe and Africa. I also look towards the pre-season tours and tournaments that are now targeting USA, Asia and Australia. Rugby in Scotland (I think) recently made a move to involve USA and Canadian Teams and already involve South African Teams.  

[Cornwall_Saint]

15 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

how does this work and how are revenues shared 

Wouldn't be able to answer how revenues are shared - no idea.

How does it work? In the early 2000s the KBVB knew Belgium were going to be shit soon and wanted to change the future. A lot of research across Europe was conducted, and plans were made. Belgium had always been "defensively organised", the KBVB wanted them to be exciting and offensive. They implemented huge change in the youth setups across the country, convincing all clubs to jump on board (something that never happens here). We now have a national league that is of a good standard, and a brilliant national team. The big sides hit the 20K-30K mark in attendances, and the lower top flight sides can attract 3Kish. The income still doesn't touch the big leagues, I think 3 years ago relegated Burnley brought in double the income of Anderlecht. But Belgian sides have helped to create their own success by joining together with the KBVB to improve the future. 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

3 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Wouldn't be able to answer how revenues are shared - no idea.

How does it work? In the early 2000s the KBVB knew Belgium were going to be shit soon and wanted to change the future. A lot of research across Europe was conducted, and plans were made. Belgium had always been "defensively organised", the KBVB wanted them to be exciting and offensive. They implemented huge change in the youth setups across the country, convincing all clubs to jump on board (something that never happens here). We now have a national league that is of a good standard, and a brilliant national team. The big sides hit the 20K-30K mark in attendances, and the lower top flight sides can attract 3Kish. The income still doesn't touch the big leagues, I think 3 years ago relegated Burnley brought in double the income of Anderlecht. But Belgian sides have helped to create their own success by joining together with the KBVB to improve the future. 

Scottish football is Scottish society in microcosm Cornwall.

I love Scotland for what it is, but I’d love it even more for what it could be.

Unfortunately years of experience tells me that the majority of people in Scotland (i.e. more than 50% before individuals start taking offence) only really care about what affects them right now. The Scottish football authorities reflect that view.

We will never ever follow that Belgian model. Mores the pity. It would involve going backwards before going forwards. That’s taboo.

Edited September 17, 2018 by TPAFKA Jersey 2

[oaksoft]

8 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Scottish football is Scottish society in microcosm Cornwall.

I love Scotland for what it is, but I’d love it even more for what it could be.

Unfortunately years of experience tells me that the majority of people in Scotland (i.e. more than 50% before individuals start taking offence) only really care about what affects them right now. The Scottish football authorities reflect that view.

We will never ever follow that Belgian model. Mores the pity. It would involve going backwards before going forwards. That’s taboo.

We need to stop obsessing over what works for other nations and focus on what works for us.

We need a Scottish solution not a Spanish, German, Dutch, Belgian etc solution.

There is no reason why we can't catch these nations up, we just need to have agreement on the way forwards.

Edited September 17, 2018 by oaksoft

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

13 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

We need to stop obsessing over what works for other nations and focus on what works for us.

We need a Scottish solution not a Spanish, German, Dutch, Belgian etc solution.

There is no reason why we can't catch these nations up, we just need to have agreement on the way forwards.

So are you saying we can’t learn from other nations?

We’ve sure as hell made a shitfest of doing it “our way”.

[oaksoft]

Just now, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

So are you saying we can’t learn from other nations?

We’ve sure as hell made a shitfest of doing it “our way”.

No i am not saying that. You are advocating moving to the Belgian way because it worked for them. I am saying we should not be jumping on the success of others just because it worked for them. Learning is great but wholesale lifting of others ideas will fail in this country.

I agree we have made a shitfest of it though.

TBH I dont know what the problem is. We are able to compete reasonably well at youth level but then we cant get youngsters to make the transition into adulthood and we get left behind. It has to be about a lack of work ethic, desire or ambition and an obsession woth money in the players, a lack of opportunity at 1st team level, weak coaching or some combination of that.

[Cornwall_Saint]

30 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Scottish football is Scottish society in microcosm Cornwall.

I love Scotland for what it is, but I’d love it even more for what it could be.

Unfortunately years of experience tells me that the majority of people in Scotland (i.e. more than 50% before individuals start taking offence) only really care about what affects them right now. The Scottish football authorities reflect that view.

We will never ever follow that Belgian model. Mores the pity. It would involve going backwards before going forwards. That’s taboo.

This is the unfortunate truth. Both nations (Belgium and Scotland) went into decline at the turn of the millennium. While Belgium knew the national side would go downhill and planned for the future, the SFA did Sweet f**k All. I remember Pat Nevin speaking about his Motherwell board days and I think he himself said to the SFA a plan was needed because Scotland was heading downwards. As we know, no action was taken and it's been a very painful 20 years. In the same time Belgium are not just qualifying for tournaments, but aiming to go far in them. Scotland may one day manage a one off tournament journey like Wales did in their highly impressive Euro 2016 campaign, but long term there's nothing to suggest it'll be regular tournaments.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

No i am not saying that. You are advocating moving to the Belgian way because it worked for them. I am saying we should not be jumping on the success of others just because it worked for them. Learning is great but wholesale lifting of others ideas will fail in this country.

I agree we have made a shitfest of it though.

TBH I dont know what the problem is. We are able to compete reasonably well at youth level but then we cant get youngsters to make the transition into adulthood and we get left behind. It has to be about a lack of work ethic, desire or ambition and an obsession woth money in the players, a lack of opportunity at 1st team level, weak coaching or some combination of that.

In fairness I wasn’t really saying we should go for the Belgian model (although experience would suggest we could do worse).

The point I was really making was that we WON’T go for it.

[oaksoft]

3 hours ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

In fairness I wasn’t really saying we should go for the Belgian model (although experience would suggest we could do worse).

The point I was really making was that we WON’T go for it.

So what do you think the problem is in Scotland?

[St.Ricky]

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

So what do you think the problem is in Scotland?

The approach used in Belgium suggested by Cornwall Saints might be part of the plan for improving football in Scotland.  If I understand what was said,  this sought to and has succeeding in creating playing and training styles focused on attacking football at all ages and at all levels.  All sounds sensible  if coordinated and funded. I can see that working and producing better players,  skilled in playing in a certain style and how it has shown through to the national team and it's improvement.  What I don't see, and CS agreed,  is how revenues were split. Was there an attempt to level the playing field financially and how was this achieved.?

[oaksoft]

6 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

The approach used in Belgium suggested by Cornwall Saints might be part of the plan for improving football in Scotland.  If I understand what was said,  this sought to and has succeeding in creating playing and training styles focused on attacking football at all ages and at all levels.  All sounds sensible  if coordinated and funded. I can see that working and producing better players,  skilled in playing in a certain style and how it has shown through to the national team and it's improvement.  What I don't see, and CS agreed,  is how revenues were split. Was there an attempt to level the playing field financially and how was this achieved.?

In Belgium they had every single team at all age levels playing 4-3-3 if I understand correctly.

I don't see how this can work here. We are not generally submissive people. It also sounds like the very definition of not having a Plan B. 

[St.Ricky]

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

In Belgium they had every single team at all age levels playing 4-3-3 if I understand correctly.

I don't see how this can work here. We are not generally submissive people. It also sounds like the very definition of not having a Plan B. 

Might is a mighty big word Oaksoft. 

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

As time marches on the world becomes more globalised one day in the distant future the world will be one. Until then small steps will be made business will force it.  If a TV company came along and offered millions to the top clubs of the Netherlands, Belgium, Poland , Denmark , Norway , Scotland even Portugal to form a league clubs would bite your hand off for it. The TV company audiences would grow by millions over night.  Of course there is the small matter of men in power holding back the future UEFA. Still wee brown envelopes have worked in the past I'm sure it will in the future.  

[pod]

9 minutes ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

As time marches on the world becomes more globalised one day in the distant future the world will be one. Until then small steps will be made business will force it.  If a TV company came along and offered millions to the top clubs of the Netherlands, Belgium, Poland , Denmark , Norway , Scotland even Portugal to form a league clubs would bite your hand off for it. The TV company audiences would grow by millions over night.  Of course there is the small matter of men in power holding back the future UEFA. Still wee brown envelopes have worked in the past I'm sure it will in the future.  

My redundancy didn't come in wee brown envelope. 

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

19 hours ago, oaksoft said:

So what do you think the problem is in Scotland?

Well, as I said, I think the problem in Scotland is that the majority of Scottish people are not aligned with “taking a punt for the greater future good” (see indyref) and that Scottish football clubs follow that general psyche. Far too scared to say “f*ck it. Let’s take a punt on determining our own future instead of cow towing to the big guys” (be it Westminster or the OF). So I guess what I’m saying is that totally contrary to what you said in a later post,, I think by and large Scottish people are indeed submissive. Renton’s rant in Trainspotting sums it up pretty well for me.

 

[oaksoft]

11 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

Well, as I said, I think the problem in Scotland is that the majority of Scottish people are not aligned with “taking a punt for the greater future good” (see indyref) and that Scottish football clubs follow that general psyche. Far too scared to say “f*ck it. Let’s take a punt on determining our own future instead of cow towing to the big guys” (be it Westminster or the OF). So I guess what I’m saying is that totally contrary to what you said in a later post,, I think by and large Scottish people are indeed submissive. Renton’s rant in Trainspotting sums it up pretty well for me.

 

I certainly think we are risk averse. We also certainly lack courage to stand on our own two feet. Easier to rely on big brother England for guidance. They are also an easy scapegoat for blaming our woes on. Taking responsibility scares people.

I am also changing my mind about the submissive thing. You have persuaded me there. I think you are right.

[TPAFKA Jersey 2]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I certainly think we are risk averse. We also certainly lack courage to stand on our own two feet. Easier to rely on big brother England for guidance. They are also an easy scapegoat for blaming our woes on. Taking responsibility scares people.

I am also changing my mind about the submissive thing. You have persuaded me there. I think you are right.

If I could have liked this twice I would have. 

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

If I could have liked this twice I would have. 

I changed my mind.

Rarer than Hen's Teeth.

I should start issuing symbolic £1 cheques to those who manage it as a reward of the momentous occasion.