Electric Cars

[Drew]

I seldom post in the General Nonsense board these days, but thought I would offer this one up for anyone who might be interested.

Last weekend, we ordered a fully electric car - primarily for my wife's use.

Making the various arrangements for a home charger, insurance, and swipe card for public chargers, etc. has been an interesting experience.

I won't bore on about it in event that no-one is especially interested, but happy to share elements of the experience as we go along (picking the car up on Friday) for anyone who is considering the option of an EV or is just curious.

Apologies if there is a thread already running.

[Callum Gilhooley]

25 minutes ago, Drew said:

I seldom post in the General Nonsense board these days, but thought I would offer this one up for anyone who might be interested.

Last weekend, we ordered a fully electric car - primarily for my wife's use.

Making the various arrangements for a home charger, insurance, and swipe card for public chargers, etc. has been an interesting experience.

I won't bore on about it in event that no-one is especially interested, but happy to share elements of the experience as we go along (picking the car up on Friday) for anyone who is considering the option of an EV or is just curious.

Apologies if there is a thread already running.

Id be very interested to hear your experience of running the car . Cost , convenience etc . As someone who works for a company who is heavily involved in the development of electric /hybrid technology , we are already being steered in the direction of Hybrid when current leases expire. 

Fully electric would not be feasible for me due to the high mileage i do but i was already looking at keeping my company diesel when it is due for renewal for my wife but with Diesel fast becoming the fuel of the devil, i need to start looking at other options.

 

[DougJamie]

Yeah me to Drew

Particularly how it runs and experience on road.

Its going to happen, so might as well embrace it 

[St.Ricky]

We were chatting about this as we drove to Paisley last week. Opinions were split on Going Electric at the next change of car or going Hybrid first so yes. Go for it.

[Drew]

Cheers for the replies and interest, folks.

The story so far....

By way of a wee bit of context, my wife's current car is on a PCP and we were having to look at changing it soon.  She was keen that her next car would be an EV (or hybrid).  In the past few weeks, Arnold Clark (yes, I know....) had been advertising used Renault Zoes at what, on the face of it, were very good deals.  I think this is partly due to the fact that there is now an upgraded Zoe that has a more powerful battery with increased range, so Renault were offloading a lot of the older style cars that were used as fleet vehicles, etc.

My view on totally electric cars has been that it is a bit too soon to be considering purchasing one on account of the mileage range of the cars and the cost of buying and leasing of battery (if applicable).  I reckon the technology will advance a fair bit in the next few years.  Anyway, it will primarily be my wife's car, so her call.

After a bit of research - mostly undertaken after we'd already put down the deposit, I have to admit - we established that it will cost roughly the same to finance and run the Zoe as it does my wife's current car - a Fiat 500.  As such, the benefits are  arguably questionable.  The Zoe is newer, however, is a higher spec car, and has lower mileage (11,000).  Obviously, the environmental credentials are another factor, and this is the main motivation for getting the EV  (and yes, I have heard many of the arguments about the production of the batteries and the electricity used to run the cars, but we still believe that the environmental benefits are pretty obvious).

Range - this is obviously a significant issue for people considering the option of a fully electric vehicle.  The car we are getting is widely reported as having a range between 65 and 150 miles or so on a single full charge.  That variation is accounted for in terms of the time of year (fewer miles in the winter), and the manner in which the car is driven.  The Zoe has an Eco mode which increases the range if you drive it a bit more conservatively.  The more powerful battery that the newer Zoe is equipped with seemingly has a range of up to 250 miles, so quite a significant upgrade, but you'll pay for that - a lot!  We figure that it will be possible to get by with the range of the car we're getting as I have car that we can use for longer journeys as required.

Battery - there tends to be a couple of options when it comes to the battery.  Buy or lease.  As far as I can work out, there are pros and cons for each.  We are leasing the battery from Renault as it is the only option available to us.  The benefits?  You can lease on an annual basis, so won't be stuck with a battery that you need to offload if you decide to change your car.  The manufacturer will repair or replace the battery if it drops below 75% of original full capacity.  Renault provide 24/7 breakdown for your car and battery.  This applies if you run out of charge somewhere.  They will come and collect you and your car and take you to a charging point.  There is no limit to the number of call-outs, so this is reassuring.  The cons?  it isn't cheap.  The amount you pay depends on your estimated mileage.  We'll be paying around £90 a month for the battery alone.  Sounds like a lot, but the actual car was very reasonable to buy as I think they have to factor in the battery lease cost.  Currently, my wife puts approximately £100 of petrol in her car each month.  Charging at home (assuming you have a home charger installed) will cost about £3 - £4 per full charge.  If you are looking at an average of around 100 miles for that, it isn't too bad at all.  Also worth bearing in mind that the Scottish Govt subsidise many public chargers, so you can charge up for free.

Buying the batter is the other option in some circumstances.  I think I'm right in saying the battery for a Zoe costs around £6K.  I imagine it is much the same for other cars of a similar range/spec.  This increases the up front/finance cost, but you aren't paying a cut to the manufacturer, and once you've paid for it, its your's.  The warranty on the purchased battery tends to be quite long (6 years or so).  I think people do encounter issues when trying to trade in cars with old batteries, or otherwise get rid of them, but I imagine there is some provision for this.

Home Charger:  we are getting a home charger installed on Saturday.  This has been a bit of a pain, but here is where you'll find a benefit if you live in Scotland.  The approx cost for a 7kw charger (it will provide a full charge within around 3 hours) is the best part of £1000.  However, the UK govt provide a £500 grant towards this, and this is pretty much automatically applied as soon as you can confirm your purchase/order.  In Scotland, you will qualify for a further £300 grant from the Energy Saving Trust.  At least, you will for the moment (I think they are reviewing this provision next year).  The total I will have to pay after my EST grant is applied (which you have to claim back after your installation, albeit they have already told us we're eligible) is £104, so pretty reasonable all things considered.  The fitting on our charger is Type 2, and, increasingly, this looks set to be the industry standard so we are future proofed to some degree.  I had some issues with the timescale for getting the charger fitted but kicked up a bit of a stink so they brought it forward.

Insurance:  this is still a bit of an unknown quantity.  The big issue seems to surround cover of the leased battery.  We're in the process of sussing this out, but it is something to bear in mind.  Some companies are reluctant to cover the battery if leased as a third party is involved (ie - the manufacturer you lease the battery off of).

In terms of the cost of insurance itself, I've read suggestions that it can add 50% onto a standard premium.  Bizarrely, this is attributed to additional issues such as - wait for it.... people tripping over charging cables in public areas and claiming damages, and folk wandering out in front of the car and getting hit as they can't hear it coming!  Hmm....  Anyway, my wife called her current insurance company (Direct Line) for a quote to change over to the Zoe, and it didn't seem any more that it would be to change to any other car that was newer and higher spec, etc.

Anyway, that's pretty much where we are at just now.  I'll provide updates as we go along.  Oh, just one other thing, I did test drive the car.  My wife wasn't so keen as she isn't used to driving a car with an auto gearbox so wants to get a bit of practice in somewhere quiet before hitting the open road for the first time.  My car is an auto, so I was quite happy to take the Zoe for a spin.  For me, it felt much like driving an ICE car.  It felt pretty refined, comfortable, roomy, and nippy enough.  More on that later.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Drew

[Maboza]

An interesting update Drew! 

I've got a lease car at the moment and the term has expired so it's just been rolling over on a month-to-month basis while I deliberate my next vehicle. 

I love the thought of an electric car but I'm as yet unsure of the practicality or how restrictive cost would be. 

I'll keep an eye on your updates with interest!

[Callum Gilhooley]

as has been said , it is going to happen ,although im not convinced yet that full EV is yet at the stage where it will work for the majority.

I have a couple of concerns.

1. As a company car driver , succesive govenments have for years pushed us towards Diesels , even offering tax advantages in the early days to get us switching. As soon as the car parc reached 51% in favour of diesels, hey presto, diesel fuel increases in cost and the BIK for diesel carries a 3% surcharge . We become an easy target for revenue .  When will the tipping point come for Hybrids and EV ? 

2. New diesels are some of the cleanest and most fuel efficient . Euro 6 diesel emmisions are almost half that of petrol and nox is broadly similar in both . The Sulphur dioxide emitted in the production of EV batteries has the potential to be far more serious than petrol or diesel . And thats before anyone has really thought of the environmental cost of either recycling or disposing of old batteries

3. Electricity :  Where is all this electric power going to come from  ?  Will we be happy to accept the new nuclear power stations that will be needed  ? or will we just build more Carbon fuel power stations ? that simply shifts the pollution from car to power production .  Or , should we just accept that Scotland will have to be given over totally to a massive wind farm for the greater good of the UK ? 

4. Lastly , watch the price on Electric charging rise as more people need it and the power production companies see easy profits and the chancellor sees a cash cow.

[Drew]

1 minute ago, Maboza said:

An interesting update Drew! 

I've got a lease car at the moment and the term has expired so it's just been rolling over on a month-to-month basis while I deliberate my next vehicle. 

I love the thought of an electric car but I'm as yet unsure of the practicality or how restrictive cost would be. 

I'll keep an eye on your updates with interest!

As things stand, it will only work for us (hopefully!) as we have another car. I would certainly consider a hybrid but only having an EV to use would be too much of a stretch. Maybe when EVs that have a standard range of 250 - 300 miles are affordable, I'll take the plunge and do away with my diesel.

Like anything else, though, I suppose if you plan ahead it would be doable. Let's face it, folk who use public transport do that routinely. Perhaps we have all become a bit to complacent.

[Drew]

3 minutes ago, Callum Gilhooley said:

as has been said , it is going to happen ,although im not convinced yet that full EV is yet at the stage where it will work for the majority.

I have a couple of concerns.

1. As a company car driver , succesive govenments have for years pushed us towards Diesels , even offering tax advantages in the early days to get us switching. As soon as the car parc reached 51% in favour of diesels, hey presto, diesel fuel increases in cost and the BIK for diesel carries a 3% surcharge . We become an easy target for revenue .  When will the tipping point come for Hybrids and EV ? 

2. New diesels are some of the cleanest and most fuel efficient . Euro 6 diesel emmisions are almost half that of petrol and nox is broadly similar in both . The Sulphur dioxide emitted in the production of EV batteries has the potential to be far more serious than petrol or diesel . And thats before anyone has really thought of the environmental cost of either recycling or disposing of old batteries

3. Electricity :  Where is all this electric power going to come from  ?  Will we be happy to accept the new nuclear power stations that will be needed  ? or will we just build more Carbon fuel power stations ? that simply shifts the pollution from car to power production .  Or , should we just accept that Scotland will have to be given over totally to a massive wind farm for the greater good of the UK ? 

4. Lastly , watch the price on Electric charging rise as more people need it and the power production companies see easy profits and the chancellor sees a cash cow.

On your last point, one of the big oil companies (can't remember which) recently purchased the power utility company First Utility for that very reason. Also, another big petrochemical mob have apparently bought Chargemaster, who install home and business charging points across the UK (they are fitting ours).

[Maboza]

1 minute ago, Drew said:

As things stand, it will only work for us (hopefully!) as we have another car. I would certainly consider a hybrid but only having an EV to use would be too much of a stretch. Maybe when EVs that have a standard range of 250 - 300 miles are affordable, I'll take the plunge and do away with my diesel.

Like anything else, though, I suppose if you plan ahead it would be doable. Let's face it, folk who use public transport do that routinely. Perhaps we have all become a bit to complacent.

Yeah - that was similar to my thinking that it would need to be a 2 car household for it to work. 

We tend to go a fair distance for camping, skiing and the like. Activities that require decent size vehicles. While there seems to be advancements with EV's coming all the time - it's still very small vehicles. You'd have to assume that even as these things evolve at a rapid pace, it's still a good while off of being any way affordable to produce a decent sized car/estate/SUV at a decent price point.  

I'm sure that a few years ago the new Tesla hatch model coming 2018/19 was intended to be the revolutionary mass-market EV, with demand providing economies of scale, etc. 

I think I read recently that they were reckoning that anticipated costs were looking like $40k rather than the intended $30k - so they weren't quite hitting the mark as intended. 

 

 

 

[Drew]

7 minutes ago, Maboza said:

Yeah - that was similar to my thinking that it would need to be a 2 car household for it to work. 

We tend to go a fair distance for camping, skiing and the like. Activities that require decent size vehicles. While there seems to be advancements with EV's coming all the time - it's still very small vehicles. You'd have to assume that even as these things evolve at a rapid pace, it's still a good while off of being any way affordable to produce a decent sized car/estate/SUV at a decent price point.  

I'm sure that a few years ago the new Tesla hatch model coming 2018/19 was intended to be the revolutionary mass-market EV, with demand providing economies of scale, etc. 

I think I read recently that they were reckoning that anticipated costs were looking like $40k rather than the intended $30k - so they weren't quite hitting the mark as intended. 

 

 

 

Aye, it sounds likely that a hybrid would be the more realistic option for someone with your requirements. Mitsubishi and others manufacture much bigger cars that have hybrid power plants.

The Zoe is actually bigger and more practical (5 doors, decent boot space) than my wife's current car - Fiat 500, size certainly isn't an issue for her (well, when it comes to cars at any rate).

It still feels like a bit of an experiment/punt, but we've done it now, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[pozbaird]

I’m interested in hearing your ‘real world’ feedback Drew, after you’ve lived with the car for at least six months - how did the range you got on a full charge pan out with town / motorway driving? How easy was it to find re-charging places when you were out and about? Is the driving experience enjoyable? How many times did you run down a pensioner who couldn’t hear you coming down the road? That sort of thing.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Was only recently I learnt that you only lease the batteries. Is that for all makes and models or just some?

Just some manufacturers. I know Nissan aren't doing it, although this might be a recent change from them.
I found this bizarre and a major stumbling block. For example of you change car after 2 or 3 years (which is possible due to changing deals, models and technogy) you would still have to pay the remaining due on the 4 year battery lease in addition to the new deal you take out.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Aye, it sounds likely that a hybrid would be the more realistic option for someone with your requirements. Mitsubishi and others manufacture much bigger cars that have hybrid power plants.

The Zoe is actually bigger and more practical (5 doors, decent boot space) than my wife's current car - Fiat 500, size certainly isn't an issue for her (well, when it comes to cars at any rate[emoji185]).

It still feels like a bit of an experiment/punt, but we've done it now, so it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

I'm sure the mitsubishi phev which is a hybrid suv has an advertised range of around 40 miles between charges. I'm struggling to see how this would be practical for anyone.

 

[StanleySaint]

I looked in to the Nissan Leaf when it came out but the 3 days it wou!d take to get to a match and home just seemed ridiculous. Still can't see why more investment isn't being put into hydrogen fuel cells?

[faraway saint]

Aye, at this stage it looks like, as has been suggested, an electric motor would only really be suitable for a 2 car family or as a run a round.

While I've always been concerned about the miles the figures quoted above are really off putting.

When you add in the "hassle" of the charging, either at home or elsewhere, etc I'm afraid not even close to considering for as long as possible. 

Surely half a dozen Duracells would do better than the shite being quoted above? 

[Drew]

57 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

Just some manufacturers. I know Nissan aren't doing it, although this might be a recent change from them.
I found this bizarre and a major stumbling block. For example of you change car after 2 or 3 years (which is possible due to changing deals, models and technogy) you would still have to pay the remaining due on the 4 year battery lease in addition to the new deal you take out.

You can lease the battery for at a year a time (it isn't any more expensive to do it that way). When the car is transferred, the new owner takes responsibility for the lease.

I would have thought that owning the battery would have been more of an issue in the scenario you describe.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Drew

[Drew]

33 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

I'm sure the mitsubishi phev which is a hybrid suv has an advertised range of around 40 miles between charges. I'm struggling to see how this would be practical for anyone.

 

I'm not really sure what the point of plug-in hybrids is.

Perhaps the idea is that you get the best of both, but surely that works with the self-charging type system that Toyota and Lexus use on their hybrids, without the hassle of having to plug in.

To be honest, plugging the car in at home for a few hours doesn't concern me at all. Beyond that it is just a case of planning your trips a bit more carefully. My wife met a woman in Balloch who was charging her car and asked her how she found it. The woman doesn't have a charging point at home, and just parks up and plugs it in when she is going to the Co-op for her messages. The charging point doesn't cost, so she basically charges her car for free.

All good in theory, right enough....

[pozbaird]

33 minutes ago, Drew said:

My wife met a woman in Balloch who was charging her car and asked her how she found it.

...and the woman replied ‘I just open my front door and there it is on the driveway’.

 

[Drew]

32 minutes ago, pozbaird said:

...and the woman replied ‘I just open my front door and there it is on the driveway’.

 

Boom tish!

[pozbaird]

1 minute ago, Drew said:

Boom tish!

Sorry, couldnae’ resist. Looking forward to your updates in ‘real world’ use, and experience of owning and driving a ‘leccy motor.

[pozbaird]

Did the salesperson have any info’ on how use of the air conditioning, CD player, lights etc affects the performance of an electric vehicle?

Edited September 17, 2018 by pozbaird

[pod]

22 minutes ago, pozbaird said:

Did the salesperson have any info’ on how use of the air conditioning, CD player, lights etc affects the performance of an electric vehicle?

It has a normal 12v which is charged when the car's running, I believe.  

[Drew]

27 minutes ago, pozbaird said:

Did the salesperson have any info’ on how use of the air conditioning, CD player, lights etc affects the performance of an electric vehicle?

Aye, as pod says, I understand that the electrics run off a standard battery.

[pozbaird]

22 minutes ago, Drew said:

Aye, as pod says, I understand that the electrics run off a standard battery.

Right ye’ are. That makes sense.