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Oaky’s reasons for turning Quisling :-)


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2 hours ago, Hendo said:

Ah, I see, because looking round this country at the moment, being right wing works does it? Massive levels of homelessness, NHS underfunded, everything set up for those wanting to make a fast buck and not to meet need, and you want more of that? Jeezo.

We don't have a right wing government fully in charge up here. The SNP have quite a few powers where they can mitigate some of the effects of things like the bedroom tax. The big thing to fix is the 6 week wait for Universal Credit which sometimes drags out even longer than that. That should be 4 weeks at the most.

Homelessness levels have very little to do with the government. We had people sleeping in the streets under both the Tories and Labour. We even had them in the 70's during the hard left government.

The major problem in the NHS is not about funding. It's about overwhelming demand from a population who take it for granted and rank inefficiency. You will never solve the problems in the NHS by throwing money at it. There isn't enough money to do that.

I don't know what you mean by making a fast buck and not meeting need. We have a very poor culture of entrepeneurialism and we have an unbelievably generous welfare system so I have no idea where you are coming from with this. A working family is still able to receive up to £1000 in tax credits alone. I don't really know what more help you want taxpayers to give out. I think you are confusing "need" with "want, dependency and entitlement". Those two things can look very similar to each other.

 

Edited by oaksoft
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56 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Academia is a microcosm of Scottish society. That culture would need to change as well. A better functioning academic research sector could also play an important role in driving technical innovation in partnership with industry. There have been some efforts to do this but it's not good enough. For example, if I wanted to discuss providing funding from my company to a university for them to provide some  cross disciplinary research, it's not obvious who to contact in the first place. I believe I would have to start contacting individual researchers and build that team myself.

Agree. There are ways through the system though Oaksoft. A couple of bodies hold the keys. You might also qualify for funding towards the cost.

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23 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Agree. There are ways through the system though Oaksoft. A couple of bodies hold the keys. You might also qualify for funding towards the cost.

That's good to know. I am not ready to push at this yet but I'm working towards it. A friend of mine has done this through industry so I have a vague idea of how to go about it.

I would like to see more people in the country developing the mentality that it is better to create a job for themselves than to find a job for themselves and our government should be throwing as much money as it can afford at those who have the ability to make serious returns on any investment.

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On 22 September 2018 at 11:09 AM, St.Ricky said:

The First Question is Could we be a Successful Independent Nation?

I think yes but with certain caveats attached. 

Some of what Oaksoft writes chimes with my own views on a dependency/entitlement culture but I try not to think of in terms of right or left as this ties us in to thinking of the past and the Thatcher v Socialism argument rather than looking for pragmatic solutions. I prefer the Scandinavian approaches of higher productivity, higher taxes and higher standards of education, care and support. Attitudes and laws relating to business and personal risk need to change. Greater access to risk capital / soft loans and changes to bankruptcy laws will be needed to fuel a change to a truly entrepreneurial society.

The Second Question is Should we be an Independent Nation?

I spent some time researching the Globalisation v Localisation issue some 20 years ago at a Business School. People throughout the world have increasingly sought a greater say in their future . I prefer a model which gives more decision making power to local people than centralised governments of any political hue.  I do prefer the Scandanavian approaches to building a country where people are much more involved in decision making and therefore take on board more responsibility.  

Where do I stand?

In 1979 I was very much for Independence. Conditions were right and we could see a pathway to the Norwegian Model where a substantial oil fund would be built. What did we get - a last minute change put forward by a Scots MP from an English Constitunency which introduced an ammendment which in the event "Saved" the Union.

We then were "granted" Devolution. The settlement involved agreeing to move the sea border substantially north of the land border and in the process ensure that oil revenues from this area went direct to the treasury and therefore weaken any future case for independence. 

So - Do I trust Politicians ? No.

But - I am now an Undecided given our current conditions.

Scotland inside Europe - A Yes.

 

 

You are not the first to mention it on BAWA  but there was no independence vote in 1979 . .

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17 minutes ago, saintnextlifetime said:

You are not the first to mention it on BAWA  but there was no independence vote in 1979 . .

It was, as you suggest, a vote for a Scottish Assembly.

I believe it would have had LESS powers than the one we have now  but I also believe it may have led to a vote for independence given the oil situation at the time.

As for that runt Cunningham...…….

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18 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

It was, as you suggest, a vote for a Scottish Assembly.

I believe it would have had LESS powers than the one we have now  but I also believe it may have led to a vote for independence given the oil situation at the time.

As for that runt Cunningham...…….

What would have happened is anyone's guess but the Labour Party managed to sabotage the SNP vote at the time . Gordon Robertson got it wrong though the second time when the Scottish Parlaiment was installed and the SNP became more popular than his Party.

However , l reckon the responsibility for sabotaging the '79 vote lies with Callighan . .

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1 hour ago, saintnextlifetime said:

You are not the first to mention it on BAWA  but there was no independence vote in 1979 . .

 

1 hour ago, saintnextlifetime said:

You are not the first to mention it on BAWA  but there was no independence vote in 1979 . .

Strictly speaking ,I see where you are coming from.

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Even facing coming out of the EU there is no large swing to Yes. Leads to the obvious question, is there a scenario which would cause a massive swing to Yes? Anything which would get Yes to polling figures of 60%?

Without that sort of figure, any future referendum will be be vulnerable to another referendum in the future.

Let's face it, we've had the Tories at Westminster for years now with no sign of that realistically ending any ime in the next decade, apparently massive austerity, huge cuts in all public areas, the bedroom tax, introduction of Universal Credit, disability assessments,  a huge spurt in foodbanks, a banking crisis and now pending forced removal from the EU. And STILL there is nowhere near a commanding swing to people wanting independence! To me, this says the policy is a dead duck.

Can anyone come up with an ideal scenario to shift the polls?

Personally, I think the process of time is being missed. If this was to happen in around 20 years as promised (a generation), there might be more of an appetite.

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11 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Even facing coming out of the EU there is no large swing to Yes. Leads to the obvious question, is there a scenario which would cause a massive swing to Yes? Anything which would get Yes to polling figures of 60%?

Without that sort of figure, any future referendum will be be vulnerable to another referendum in the future.

Let's face it, we've had the Tories at Westminster for years now with no sign of that realistically ending any ime in the next decade, apparently massive austerity, huge cuts in all public areas, the bedroom tax, introduction of Universal Credit, disability assessments,  a huge spurt in foodbanks, a banking crisis and now pending forced removal from the EU. And STILL there is nowhere near a commanding swing to people wanting independence! To me, this says the policy is a dead duck.

Can anyone come up with an ideal scenario to shift the polls?

Personally, I think the process of time is being missed. If this was to happen in around 20 years as promised (a generation), there might be more of an appetite.

The EU question has the potential to develop into a game changer.  The present mix of Tory Party Splits, Possible Labour Party Policy change ? Possible People's Vote , Possible General Elevtion and the Ruling to be made in the European Court of Justice on The Right of the Scottish Parliament's Legislation to Recognised with respect to Leaving the UK have created a volatile brew. The Alex Salmond controversy spices things up further locally. Opportunity might arise out of apparent chaos. Just as well that I don't bet as there are so many runners with similar odds it would be hard to get it right. 

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3 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Even facing coming out of the EU there is no large swing to Yes. Leads to the obvious question, is there a scenario which would cause a massive swing to Yes? Anything which would get Yes to polling figures of 60%?

Without that sort of figure, any future referendum will be be vulnerable to another referendum in the future.

Let's face it, we've had the Tories at Westminster for years now with no sign of that realistically ending any ime in the next decade, apparently massive austerity, huge cuts in all public areas, the bedroom tax, introduction of Universal Credit, disability assessments,  a huge spurt in foodbanks, a banking crisis and now pending forced removal from the EU. And STILL there is nowhere near a commanding swing to people wanting independence! To me, this says the policy is a dead duck.

Can anyone come up with an ideal scenario to shift the polls?

Personally, I think the process of time is being missed. If this was to happen in around 20 years as promised (a generation), there might be more of an appetite.

Or even......................Image result for dodo

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4 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

The EU question has the potential to develop into a game changer.  The present mix of Tory Party Splits, Possible Labour Party Policy change ? Possible People's Vote , Possible General Elevtion and the Ruling to be made in the European Court of Justice on The Right of the Scottish Parliament's Legislation to Recognised with respect to Leaving the UK have created a volatile brew. The Alex Salmond controversy spices things up further locally. Opportunity might arise out of apparent chaos. Just as well that I don't bet as there are so many runners with similar odds it would be hard to get it right. 

Agree with you there Berxit has the potential to open a can of worms on independence.  Like you I'm not so sure the timing is right given the scale of UK debt. So called financial experts and investors who hold billions of $ are predicting the next rescission is around the corner others saying 2020. UK going into a world market during a rescission could be crippling to the UK.  My money is on another people's vote on Berxit another reason the EU are playing hard ball they know. another Berxit vote is coming there are too many splits in government nothing will get voted through. One big hellish mess created by the Tory party self interest. 

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10 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

 Opportunity might arise out of apparent chaos. Just as well that I don't bet as there are so many runners with similar odds it would be hard to get it right. 

Yes, you might be right. Maybe it just needs all this other stuff to simmer down.

Tha majority of people don't like risk and uncertainty and we have nothing but uncertainty on a range of issues right now.

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Just lies in your case, eh?

 

 

 

 

No, he’s saying he made it up!

 

 

 

 

Only cos you don’t have a brain!

 

A bit like Saintnextlifetime!

 

Pair of dimwits! [emoji1]

 

 

Yup, completely made up. From the very, very nationalist Press & Journal.

 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/independence-referendum-guide/1554241/brexit-could-be-decisive-factor-in-next-scottish-independence-vote/

 

 

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38 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, completely made up. From the very, very nationalist Press & Journal.

 

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/news/politics/referendum/independence-referendum-guide/1554241/brexit-could-be-decisive-factor-in-next-scottish-independence-vote/

 

 

I reckon some days it feels like we are dealing with individuals from 2nd year at high school  or maybe just people who bend the truth to suit themselves and fail to look at the facts.  Then they simply accuse you of doing what they do or maybe , they don't even know they are doing it.  

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Here is my tuppence worth..................................................

Independence is a fanciful idea and one that does little to gel the people in our small country. The idea of being an independently thinking person who likes the concept of being Scottish, is a vastly different thing to wanting some half-baked ideas being forced on us by a party that has a one-track mind and fails to understand the principle of what it takes to properly govern a country and set us on a true path to becoming 'richer' in all aspects of our lives.

The SNP regularly holds us up as a country that can stand alongside the various Scandinavian models in terms of development and opportunity to benefit our citizens , but it conveniently forgets to mention the poverty, the state of the health, the questionable education standards and historic chronic hangover in terms of housing and industry from our past which still hangs over our country all these years later. No Scandinavian country ever has had any of these problems to fix. So basically they are trying to compare a pomegranate with an orange and say that it is the same thing.

In addition, many of the SNP so-called benefits that have been introduced have generally been populist moves to 'win over' a vast number of floating poorer voters, especially from a Labour Party that has for a number of years, lost its way. The concept of free prescriptions is exceedingly wasteful and leads to a false sense of entitlement which, once provided is hard to turn around. At least in England a £7 charge might make you think twice before going to ask your doctor for a prescription for paracetamol or aspirin (only a minor example), which can be bought readily and cheaply over the counter.  

I used to think that it would take maybe two to three generations of elections in Scotland to start seeing some politicians beginning to appear at Hollyrood  that could start to make a real difference. I now fear the worst. They are very thin on the ground and the standard is such that I now fear we will never get a quality of politician that has either business, or trade union experience and bring some much-needed gravitas to the assembly. Most are Councillors made up from the ranks, or career individuals who set out from school and study politics at Uni so that they can enter a well paid position in Edinburgh, the majority have no life experience that allows them to influence the real changes that are required in our society to really make our lives better throughout the country. :angry:

What has Brexit done? It has deeply divided the country (and I mean the UK) and gives the SNP an opportunity to snipe from the outside and appear righteous that little old Scotland is such a great place because we voted to stay. What they conveniently forget, is that it was national vote and not a regional vote to  remain in bits and pieces. That doesn't make the vote right or wrong, but if we had a national vote to say go to war, would they argue to stay out of the war if Scotland voted 51 to 49% to not get involved and the rest of the UK said vociferously in a vote to protect our shores? - A bit extreme I know, but referendums are quite rare in our country and as the politicians have learnt, often true democracy has a habit of kicking a government in the teeth when they least expect it.

I still haven't yet seen a fair, cogent and justifiable argument for independence. :sorry  

 

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3 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

 

I still haven't yet seen a fair, cogent and justifiable argument for independence. :sorry   

 

Good post mate............... again this is all about viewpoints isnt it, and also how it may impact our lives from a totally selfish point of view

I had been for Indy right up to the point where the White Paper was published in 2014. It had so many holes in it, so many if buts and maybes that as a tenable option it self defeated.

We are a vital part to the UK economy and sure we probably could make a stab of Indy, but we have no mandate. IMHO

However

2015 election got us 56 SNPs MPs, both Tory and Lab had 1 seat. Lab folded under Eddie, and Cameron already had major internal issues hence the Brexit Ref in 2016.  SNPs had a window.  They didnt take it. They should have walked out of Westminster when it was clear there was never to be a deal with Labour. Voted by the people and refusing to recognise Westminster, That would have stopped any Brexit ref in 2016

Even then

We still had a growing Indy support when Scots returned 62-38 to stay in EU, and the only thing the SNPs did, was bark like little West Highland terriors against the Tory pack of Lions.

Again just my opinion, but Sturgeon like Salmond was like Marmite....... loved or hated. Clever or Stupid, we needed a stronger leader, a far better Flag Bearer. Being First Minister of Scotland basically plays to the tune of a United Kingdom. Its a Civil Servant position.  Scots needed to be more vocal............... and thats just the start of it....

So as some noises grumble over a No Deal, a possible but unlikely General Election, where is the great plan from the Nats?

Is it just the same that Scotland "should have " Independence because Westminster is so bad, the Tories are so divided as our Labour. Is it that our future should be based on failure?

Last time I checked from Stats the Government is not failing. Its reducing unemployment, its in Growth as an economy , and unemployment are at all times low. Now that may all be spin with a bit of facts thrown in but where is the plan for Indy ?

Where is the selling points, the currency, the EU issue, the fact that the EU should not control us as they do. The Norway model Salmond spoke about in 2013? The only model Salmond speaks about now is a 6ft Russian one ?  And he is also take the Scottish Gov to court ?

Like you just putting it out there. Basically its a mess, and Indy for me, is so off the table. Time to be United not Divided............   Thats why I jokingly said Green Party. Fact they hardly have any candidates kind of scuppers the tree huggers having a chance .....

 

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4 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

 

In addition, many of the SNP so-called benefits that have been introduced have generally been populist moves to 'win over' a vast number of floating poorer voters, especially from a Labour Party that has for a number of years, lost its way. The concept of free prescriptions is exceedingly wasteful and leads to a false sense of entitlement which, once provided is hard to turn around.

 

Even the Scottish Conservatives support this policy now! :P

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39913881

 

 

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4 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

Here is my tuppence worth..................................................

Independence is a fanciful idea and one that does little to gel the people in our small country. The idea of being an independently thinking person who likes the concept of being Scottish, is a vastly different thing to wanting some half-baked ideas being forced on us by a party that has a one-track mind and fails to understand the principle of what it takes to properly govern a country and set us on a true path to becoming 'richer' in all aspects of our lives.

The SNP regularly holds us up as a country that can stand alongside the various Scandinavian models in terms of development and opportunity to benefit our citizens , but it conveniently forgets to mention the poverty, the state of the health, the questionable education standards and historic chronic hangover in terms of housing and industry from our past which still hangs over our country all these years later. No Scandinavian country ever has had any of these problems to fix. So basically they are trying to compare a pomegranate with an orange and say that it is the same thing.

In addition, many of the SNP so-called benefits that have been introduced have generally been populist moves to 'win over' a vast number of floating poorer voters, especially from a Labour Party that has for a number of years, lost its way. The concept of free prescriptions is exceedingly wasteful and leads to a false sense of entitlement which, once provided is hard to turn around. At least in England a £7 charge might make you think twice before going to ask your doctor for a prescription for paracetamol or aspirin (only a minor example), which can be bought readily and cheaply over the counter.  

I used to think that it would take maybe two to three generations of elections in Scotland to start seeing some politicians beginning to appear at Hollyrood  that could start to make a real difference. I now fear the worst. They are very thin on the ground and the standard is such that I now fear we will never get a quality of politician that has either business, or trade union experience and bring some much-needed gravitas to the assembly. Most are Councillors made up from the ranks, or career individuals who set out from school and study politics at Uni so that they can enter a well paid position in Edinburgh, the majority have no life experience that allows them to influence the real changes that are required in our society to really make our lives better throughout the country. :angry:

What has Brexit done? It has deeply divided the country (and I mean the UK) and gives the SNP an opportunity to snipe from the outside and appear righteous that little old Scotland is such a great place because we voted to stay. What they conveniently forget, is that it was national vote and not a regional vote to  remain in bits and pieces. That doesn't make the vote right or wrong, but if we had a national vote to say go to war, would they argue to stay out of the war if Scotland voted 51 to 49% to not get involved and the rest of the UK said vociferously in a vote to protect our shores? - A bit extreme I know, but referendums are quite rare in our country and as the politicians have learnt, often true democracy has a habit of kicking a government in the teeth when they least expect it.

I still haven't yet seen a fair, cogent and justifiable argument for independence. :sorry  

 

We got all that for Tuppence?

I should have kept my money.

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