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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 11:09 AM, The Original 59er said:

 

I still haven't yet seen a fair, cogent and justifiable argument for independence. :sorry  

 

 Much of the Project Fear (re Independence) rationale disappeared when the UK voted to leave the EU.

Ever since the EU referendum result was announced we've had Remain politicians (many Conservative & Labour & all of the Lib-Dems) campaigning to overturn the result and yet in the next breath we're told that the 2014 IndyRef was a "once in a generation" vote and binding - sheer hypocrisy.

We'll never be anything more than a branch office if we remain in the UK an opinion voiced by past ScotLab leaders such as Henry McLeish & Johann Lamont, even Gordon Brown said there were fundamental differences between English & Scottish electorates in a New Statesman article round about the GE in 2015.

Then you have the UK government reneging on "The Pledge" made just before the IndyRef and that's before you consider the grab of EU powers that should be devolved back to Scotland not Westminster - the present UK government are not trustworthy.

I'm not claiming that Scotland would face no upheaval if we became independent from the UK but if it comes down to a matter of competence then I'd  rather go with the SNP at Holyrood than any shade of Westminster government. 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker
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There is no hypocrisy. The 2014 Indyref was a once in a generation vote because the SNP leadership made that specifically clear. That wasn't the case with the EU vote.

We have seen significant powers transferred North as well since 2014 so I don't get the claim about the Vow being broken either.

We could do with both sides putting an end to spin and the treatment of everyone as stupid.

You are making the same mistake of simply assuming the SNP will run an independent Scotland. It could just as easily be a rainbow coalition of the others. Therefore your comparison between having a choice of SNP at Holyrood and Westminster after independence is fatally flawed.

Finally, for me, the problem with Project Fear wasn't being kicked out of the EU. I never thought that would be a thing. Project Fear was more about the lack of a coherent strategy over our proposed currency, our share of the national debt, our trade with the rest of the UK, borders at Gretna, splitting up of families, the risk to pensions and a raft of other stuff. The absolute killer was Osborne stating we could not have a currency union with RUK and Salmond having absolutely no backup plan.

Edited by oaksoft
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There is no hypocrisy. The 2014 Indyref was a once in a generation vote because the SNP leadership made that specifically clear. That wasn't the case with the EU vote. We have seen significant powers transferred North as well since 2014 so I don't get the claim about the Vow being broken either.

We could do with both sides putting an end to spin and the treatment of everyone as stupid.

You are making the same mistake of simply assuming the SNP will run an independent Scotland. It could just as easily be a rainbow coalition of the others. Therefore your comparison between having a choice of SNP at Holyrood and Westminster after independence is fatally flawed.

Finally, for me, the problem with Project Fear wasn't being kicked out of the EU. I never thought that would be a thing. Project Fear was more about the lack of a coherent strategy over our proposed currency, our share of the national debt, our trade with the rest of the UK, borders at Gretna, splitting up of families, the risk to pensions and a raft of other stuff. The absolute killer was Osborne stating we could not have a currency union with RUK and Salmond having absolutely no backup plan.

 

 

The 2014 referendum was what appeared at the time to be a once in a generation opportunity, luckily current circumstances have given us another opportunity.

 

I'm not clear on the "significant powers" that were transferred, can you enlighten me, please.

 

I've always said that the SNP will run an independent Scotland until there's a GE and the new parties and alliances become clear. At that point, imo, the SNP, having achieved its aim, will melt away.

 

I would expect lessons to have been learned from 2014 and I fully expect your coherent strategy on currency will be realised and published in time for Indyref2. The other things you cite are things that will be dealt with pragmatically at the appropriate time, no-one - including rUK - will cut their noses off to spite their faces, and families won't be any more split up than they currently are.

 

Specifically on pensions, my mate's mother-in-law was told by her (then) MP that she wouldn't get her pension - not "might not", "wouldn't" - and voted No on that basis. My mate asked her if her sister in Canada still got her UK pension and that was when she realised that she'd been lied to by the (Labour) MP.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 

There is no hypocrisy. The 2014 Indyref was a once in a generation vote because the SNP leadership made that specifically clear. That wasn't the case with the EU vote.

 

What Alex Salmond (not the SNP leadership) actually said was "In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, this is a once in a generation opportunity for Scotland".

It was never a guarantee, never SNP policy just Alex Salmond's opinion that there would be no appetite for a second Independence referendum if No won.

It's clear all bets were off after the EU referendum result! 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker
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5 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 The absolute killer was Osborne stating we could not have a currency union with RUK and Salmond having absolutely no backup plan.

The Bank of England is in fact the Bank of England, Northern Ireland, Scotland & Wales as Mervyn King the previous Governor of the BoE stated in front of a Commons Committee and has been outwith political control since 1997. Osborne didn't have the authority to make the above happen, the sky wouldn't have fallen down overnight  - just one more example of Project Fear.  

 

 

Quote

 

Pound Sterling

The morning after a “Yes” vote for Scottish independence, the Pound Sterling will still be the currency of Scotland. There will be a period of exit negotiations, likely to last for 1-2 years, during which everything will remain as it is.

 
Pound Sterling

The currency of an independent Scotland will be an important discussion point during the exit negotiations. The banknotes used in Scotland today are Pound Sterling banknotes issued by three Scottish retail banks. The amount of notes that Scottish retail banks can issue depends on how much Bank of England notes and coins they hold in reserve.

The Scottish National Party has indicated that it would prefer a currency union between Scotland and the remnant of the United Kingdom. That way the Scottish pound would be at par with the Pound Sterling, similar to the Manx Pound from the Isle of Man.

HM Treasury stated in 2013 that the present relationship with the Bank of England could be changed after independence. Scottish retail banks may need to hold significantly more Bank of England cash in reserve, up to a point where the amount is simply too high to make this happen. Therefore Scottish retail banks would no longer be able to issue Pound Sterling banknotes backed by the Bank of England.

 

Edited by Bud the Baker
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7 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

The 2014 referendum was what appeared at the time to be a once in a generation opportunity, luckily current circumstances have given us another opportunity.

 

I'm not clear on the "significant powers" that were transferred, can you enlighten me, please.

 

I've always said that the SNP will run an independent Scotland until there's a GE and the new parties and alliances become clear. At that point, imo, the SNP, having achieved its aim, will melt away.

 

I would expect lessons to have been learned from 2014 and I fully expect your coherent strategy on currency will be realised and published in time for Indyref2. The other things you cite are things that will be dealt with pragmatically at the appropriate time, no-one - including rUK - will cut their noses off to spite their faces, and families won't be any more split up than they currently are.

 

Specifically on pensions, my mate's mother-in-law was told by her (then) MP that she wouldn't get her pension - not "might not", "wouldn't" - and voted No on that basis. My mate asked her if her sister in Canada still got her UK pension and that was when she realised that she'd been lied to by the (Labour) MP.

You are, of course, completely clear on the significant powers which have been transferred to Holyrood since 2014. We both know exactly what they are and so do the public at large. Is this the new and improved Yes strategy? To bullshit about everything? I can't see that persuading anyone. If your point is about restrictions on those powers then that is a legitimate matter for discussion but we can't get to that with you treating people like idiots.

As for the once in a generation thing, you can't get around that with the EU situation because people were absolutely clear in 2014 that there was a chance of a EU Leave vote and still voted No. The polls also clearly demonstrate that leaving the EU will not give Yes a commanding majority with DKs included. If it was 55 to 60% Yes then I would agree with you but well under 50% is not a mandate for anything. The fear of leaving the EU has only swung the meter on a minute scale. You confident of going to Indyref2 with Yes polling at 47 or 48%? Brave doesn't begin to describe that.

You might believe the SNP will only last until the next election after Independence but I would suggest the majority of the country still see the SNP and an independent Scotland as one and the same and that is a major problem. Ignoring that won't help you.

Your point on the currency union seems to be "don't worry it will be alright on the night". If so, then you really haven't learned just how deep rooted and justified these fears are amongst the population. It really is staggering that you can be so casual about this after it being the defining issue of the last campaign. The EU situation should be teaching you that believing both sides will be pragmatic simply doesn't hold water. There is a very real danger of a clean exit with no deal. Fear of that is already pushing many large companies to move their headquarters abroad. That is absolutely what we can expect at the first sign of uncertainty with Independence. A coherent strategy should already be set in stone. Now. They've had 4 years. How much longer do they need? According to Sturgeon a decision on whether to have a vote will be announced in the next few months or so. Are you seriously telling me they are going to, once more, start the clock on a referendum without every t crossed and i dotted?

As for the pension thing. I've got news for you. Politicians lie. You counter that by expecting that in advance and having a clear costed strategy for maintaining that pension. The SNP didn't have that last time and they don't have it now. It really is unbelievable.

Edited by oaksoft
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You are, of course, completely clear on the significant powers which have been transferred to Holyrood since 2014. We both know exactly what they are and so do the public at large. Is this the new and improved Yes strategy? To bullshit about everything? I can't see that persuading anyone. If your point is about restrictions on those powers then that is a legitimate matter for discussion but we can't get to that with you treating people like idiots.
As for the once in a generation thing, you can't get around that with the EU situation because people were absolutely clear in 2014 that there was a chance of a EU Leave vote and still voted No. The polls also clearly demonstrate that leaving the EU will not give Yes a commanding majority with DKs included. If it was 55 to 60% Yes then I would agree with you but well under 50% is not a mandate for anything. The fear of leaving the EU has only swung the meter on a minute scale. You confident of going to Indyref2 with Yes polling at 47 or 48%? Brave doesn't begin to describe that.
You might believe the SNP will only last until the next election after Independence but I would suggest the majority of the country still see the SNP and an independent Scotland as one and the same and that is a major problem. Ignoring that won't help you.
Your point on the currency union seems to be "don't worry it will be alright on the night". If so, then you really haven't learned just how deep rooted and justified these fears are amongst the population. It really is staggering that you can be so casual about this after it being the defining issue of the last campaign. The EU situation should be teaching you that believing both sides will be pragmatic simply doesn't hold water. There is a very real danger of a clean exit with no deal. Fear of that is already pushing many large companies to move their headquarters abroad. That is absolutely what we can expect at the first sign of uncertainty with Independence. A coherent strategy should already be set in stone. Now. They've had 4 years. How much longer do they need? According to Sturgeon a decision on whether to have a vote will be announced in the next few months or so. Are you seriously telling me they are going to, once more, start the clock on a referendum without every t crossed and i dotted?
As for the pension thing. I've got news for you. Politicians lie. You counter that by expecting that in advance and having a clear costed strategy for maintaining that pension. The SNP didn't have that last time and they don't have it now. It really is unbelievable.


I take it then that you mean the Scotland Act in 2016? You really have been taken in by Project Fear if you believe that those crumbs from the rich man's table are "significant". The most significant piece of legislation implemented immediately after the Vow was EVEL, effectively preventing any MP representing a Scottish constituency from becoming PM. Draw your own conclusion.

The SNP disappearing in the manner I described is something that needs spreading, I agree. It can be fun watching the thought process when you explain to someone who wants to "smash the SNP" that voting for the SNP is the easiest way to make that dream come true...

As I said, I'm confident there will be a coherent strategy on currency, not casual. The powder is being kept dry until it's the right time to use it, that's all.

The EU situation is more about a Conservative Party leadership contest than anything else, it's all Johnny Foreigner's fault, I don't think it's a realistic comparison to how things will pan out when Scotland leaves the UK, there are too many differences in the basic structures.

I'm well aware that politicians lie, oaky, the pension thing I mentioned was only to illustrate just how gullible people can be. That's what Yes2 has to address, the lesson from is that people can be persuaded on an individual, one-to-one basis, that's how we win next time around.

Looks like there's a way to go with you, mind.

:)
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3 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


I take it then that you mean the Scotland Act in 2016? You really have been taken in by Project Fear if you believe that those crumbs from the rich man's table are "significant". The most significant piece of legislation implemented immediately after the Vow was EVEL, effectively preventing any MP representing a Scottish constituency from becoming PM. Draw your own conclusion.

The SNP disappearing in the manner I described is something that needs spreading, I agree. It can be fun watching the thought process when you explain to someone who wants to "smash the SNP" that voting for the SNP is the easiest way to make that dream come true...

As I said, I'm confident there will be a coherent strategy on currency, not casual. The powder is being kept dry until it's the right time to use it, that's all.

The EU situation is more about a Conservative Party leadership contest than anything else, it's all Johnny Foreigner's fault, I don't think it's a realistic comparison to how things will pan out when Scotland leaves the UK, there are too many differences in the basic structures.

I'm well aware that politicians lie, oaky, the pension thing I mentioned was only to illustrate just how gullible people can be. That's what Yes2 has to address, the lesson from is that people can be persuaded on an individual, one-to-one basis, that's how we win next time around.

Looks like there's a way to go with you, mind.

:)

 

So you honestly believe that all the SNP representatives at Hollyrood will simply disappear or melt back down to their base core beliefs be that Labour, Lib-Dem or 'Conservative' (that would be interesting!), or do you think they might want to hold on to their cushy little number and still hold on to a SNP whip?

My problem is that they are making such a hash of it at present with the powers they have, and our lives are simply getting no better, hence having the same old, same old again, however  with actual independence frightens the life out of me. The fact is that a large majority of SMP's are re-cycled regional politicians who at that level never managed to impress me, so I suppose, why should I expect much better at Hollyrood? :huh:

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5 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

So you honestly believe that all the SNP representatives at Hollyrood will simply disappear or melt back down to their base core beliefs be that Labour, Lib-Dem or 'Conservative' (that would be interesting!), or do you think they might want to hold on to their cushy little number and still hold on to a SNP whip?

My problem is that they are making such a hash of it at present with the powers they have, and our lives are simply getting no better, hence having the same old, same old again, however  with actual independence frightens the life out of me. The fact is that a large majority of SMP's are re-cycled regional politicians who at that level never managed to impress me, so I suppose, why should I expect much better at Hollyrood? :huh:

You've talked about how crap things are under the SNP without stating what you mean. What changes do you want to see in how Scotland is ruled?

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6 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

So you honestly believe that all the SNP representatives at Hollyrood will simply disappear or melt back down to their base core beliefs be that Labour, Lib-Dem or 'Conservative' (that would be interesting!), or do you think they might want to hold on to their cushy little number and still hold on to a SNP whip?

My problem is that they are making such a hash of it at present with the powers they have, and our lives are simply getting no better, hence having the same old, same old again, however  with actual independence frightens the life out of me. The fact is that a large majority of SMP's are re-cycled regional politicians who at that level never managed to impress me, so I suppose, why should I expect much better at Hollyrood? :huh:

The SNP for me have done a lot of great things. Reduced ferry travel, not only helping small businesses also brings in more tourists. Fuel duty cut  on islands has also been a big help. Free rates for small businesses a cross the country has been a huge help. Infrastructure projects such as those attached to the M8 and new forth bridge have brought jobs. There are plenty more good things been done. Would these things happened under Labour or a Tory administration ? Very much doubt it. Of course not everything is prefict , however SNP is local people dealing with local issues not answering to their leader in London. 

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20 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 The absolute killer was Osborne stating we could not have a currency union with RUK and Salmond having absolutely no backup plan.

If Scotland was independant I guarentee Westminster would be delighted with a currency union.

 

The only other alternatives are  to watch the pound dive as the balance of payments goes down the pug hole, or put a halt to the tax fraud that ships profits offshore distorting the current accout balance.

 

 

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7 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

 

My problem is that they are making such a hash of it at present with the powers they have, and our lives are simply getting no better, hence having the same old, same old again, however  with actual independence frightens the life out of me. The fact is that a large majority of SMP's are re-cycled regional politicians who at that level never managed to impress me, so I suppose, why should I expect much better at Hollyrood? :huh:

There's been a global recession these last 10 years, it's not restricted to Scotland, but like I've said before if it's simply a matter of competence the SNPs record over this period more than stands comparison with what we've seen down south!

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22 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

Specifically on pensions, my mate's mother-in-law was told by her (then) MP that she wouldn't get her pension - not "might not", "wouldn't" - and voted No on that basis. My mate asked her if her sister in Canada still got her UK pension and that was when she realised that she'd been lied to by the (Labour) MP.

 

 

 

Doh! Canada wasn't part of the UK while your mate's sister was working there!

Comedy gold! :lol:

Edited by Wendy Saintss
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2 hours ago, insaintee said:

If Scotland was independant I guarentee Westminster would be delighted with a currency union.

 

The only other alternatives are  to watch the pound dive as the balance of payments goes down the pug hole, or put a halt to the tax fraud that ships profits offshore distorting the current accout balance.

 

 

Yes2 should wheel you out to give your personal guarantee about this.

Pensioners across our nation will be so relieved.

Where were you in 2014 when Yes needed you on this issue?

Edited by oaksoft
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Doh! Canada wasn't part of the UK while your mate's sister was working there!
Comedy gold! [emoji38]
Comedy gold, indeed. Again you really are making a roaring arse of yourself in this thread.

Read what I wrote, not what you wish I'd written, then come back and apologise for your unwanted and unnecessary contribution to a civilised debate.
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So you honestly believe that all the SNP representatives at Hollyrood will simply disappear or melt back down to their base core beliefs be that Labour, Lib-Dem or 'Conservative' (that would be interesting!), or do you think they might want to hold on to their cushy little number and still hold on to a SNP whip?
My problem is that they are making such a hash of it at present with the powers they have, and our lives are simply getting no better, hence having the same old, same old again, however  with actual independence frightens the life out of me. The fact is that a large majority of SMP's are re-cycled regional politicians who at that level never managed to impress me, so I suppose, why should I expect much better at Hollyrood? :huh:


The latter us exactly what I believe will happen, why would you think otherwise? It won't be immediate, it will take 2 or 3 years, but it will happen. And don't forget the current Westminster MPs will be back, too, so a good few of those regional politicians will be out of a job.

What are they making a hash of with their current powers? On every measure I can think of, Scotland is performing better than the rUK equivalents. If the SG is making a hash of things, rUK is making a bigger hash of things. Be grateful you don't live elsewhere in the UK where lives are getting worse instead of no better.

As for same old, same old, have you seen Labour's new policies? Basically everything the SNP have already said they're aspiring to implement or have actually implemented.
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1 hour ago, salmonbuddie said:


 

 


The latter us exactly what I believe will happen, why would you think otherwise? It won't be immediate, it will take 2 or 3 years, but it will happen. And don't forget the current Westminster MPs will be back, too, so a good few of those regional politicians will be out of a job.

What are they making a hash of with their current powers? On every measure I can think of, Scotland is performing better than the rUK equivalents. If the SG is making a hash of things, rUK is making a bigger hash of things. Be grateful you don't live elsewhere in the UK where lives are getting worse instead of no better.

As for same old, same old, have you seen Labour's new policies? Basically everything the SNP have already said they're aspiring to implement or have actually implemented.

 

Yes I have to agree that I can't see what the problem is with the way the SNP are running things generally. I definitely can't understand the rage.

There isn't a viable alternative up here. Labour want to waste time and money nationalising everything with zero net benefit to anyone. The Greens want to drive business into the ground with their ridiculous 60% top rate of income tax. The Lib Dems can't be trusted on anything after the tuition fees nonsense. The Tories have the best chance of taking over but they are still too full of old people, racists and toffs for my liking.

The SNP remain the best to run the country for now.

Edited by oaksoft
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15 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

To be fair the Scottish conservatives change their view on policy with the wind.
A bit like wee Billy Bunter Ruth.

Ruth Davidson is a politician that highlights the political shallowness and short attention span of many of today's voters.

She's all hot air and bluster. Scratch the surface and, in terms of politics, there's little or nothing there. She can put on a performance, in a "jolly hockey sticks" type of way though, which seems to keep a minority of Scots quite happy.

If she ends up UK leader of her party, then she will be fantastic in terms of entertainment value for non tory voters.

 

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