oaksoft Posted November 6, 2018 Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 2 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: Agreed. And you also shouldnt assume that every other club will spend their windfall on players. They will have debts to service and a host of other structural priorities to deal with just like us. For those reasons, IMO, we need to stop obsessing over money. We are not in our current position because of money and we all know it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 6, 2018 Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 1 minute ago, oaksoft said: And you also shouldnt assume that every other club will spend their windfall on players. They will have debts to service and a host of other structural priorities to deal with just like us. For those reasons, IMO, we need to stop obsessing over money. We are not in our current position because of money and we all know it. Right on many counts. As you say, football is a business and will have debts, loans and other liabilities to handle. Each will have different priorities both on and off the football park, some of which won't find favour with every fan. I was using "shorthand" by suggesting an increase in the playing budget would occur in every instance but also to reflect the different ways in which we might treat money generated through our normal football activities and how we might use windfall monies such as the John McGinn transfer monies. The point of difference that I was trying but failing to make was that for the money to have any real impact on the standard of players under contract you need to be able to survive for a year or two in the top league with the increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money this brings which enables an ongoing improvement in playing staff. Lots of clubs try to do this at every level. The impact is cumulative. Some succeed spectacularly. Many don't. Clubs which were in the Premiership last year and the year before are at least one stage ahead of us in their ability to plan ahead on the financial front, particularly on player budgets. We were not competing with them for players in the past two, three or more transfer windows before this summer. We found it tough this year. January is crucial as is next summer. We need to find that element that, as you say, doesn't depend directly on money. But every bit helps...hence the 300000. For me this would be based on the board having a clear strategy, a manager in tune with the board, the players and the fans. It's then that miracles can happen. I see that Man City are in trouble under the Financial Fair Play Rules. PSG too. In our own country the clubs from the top down tend to finish in the order of their financial resources. When some try to inject money short term it has often led to near or complete meltdown. We have our own examples in Scotland. Money is an important tool but not the only one in creating and sustaining success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 15 hours ago, St.Ricky said: But... as I said earlier, I was. Also.. I don't see us spending the McGinn money on players. So you replied to my post with 2 points - one which was wrong and another which was irrelevant? With regards to spending the McGinn money on players, how do you know what has been spent on wages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 10 hours ago, St.Ricky said: The point of difference that I was trying but failing to make was that for the money to have any real impact on the standard of players under contract you need to be able to survive for a year or two in the top league with the increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money this brings which enables an ongoing improvement in playing staff. The reason your point was failing is because its wrong! You don't need to survive for a year or two in order to benefit from increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money. All of that happens immediately upon promotion and can be factored into the budget right from the start! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Wendy Saintss said: The reason your point was failing is because its wrong! You don't need to survive for a year or two in order to benefit from increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money. All of that happens immediately upon promotion and can be factored into the budget right from the start! And the period before has no impact? We need to agree to differ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, St.Ricky said: And the period before has no impact? We need to agree to differ. Why would the period have any impact? Increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money happens immediately upon promotion. The period that you've already been in the top flight makes no difference to this! None of our top flight rivals save any income from previous seasons. Indeed, for most, its the opposite. They get into bigger debt the longer they are in the top flight! Edited November 7, 2018 by Wendy Saintss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 2 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said: Why would the period have any impact? Increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money happens immediately upon promotion. The period that you've already been in the top flight makes no difference to this! None of our top flight rivals save any income from previous seasons. Indeed, for most, its the opposite. They get into bigger debt the longer they are in the top flight! We differ. I take the view that what we do this year will influence the next. Same looking back. As I said. Let's agree to disagree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 5 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said: Why would the period have any impact? Increased gate, prize, TV and sponsorship money happens immediately upon promotion. The period that you've already been in the top flight makes no difference to this! None of our top flight rivals save any income from previous seasons. Indeed, for most, its the opposite. They get into bigger debt the longer they are in the top flight! FFS, you do know this is never ending, trying to get anywhere with the forum airhead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 18 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: I take the view that what we do this year will influence the next. Explain how this will affect prize money this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 4 hours ago, St.Ricky said: And the period before has no impact? We need to agree to differ. In a normal business you are actually correct. Your budget for the current year is set by what you earned last year as retained profits. Football is not run that way and to an extent it can't be run that way. For example, we would be forced to pay Championship level wages. Clubs have to estimate what they will earn in 2018-19 season in advance in order to budget for this current season. No club in their right mind will have assumed money from the European campaigns. Where you are correct is with player turnover. Established clubs may only need to turn over 3 or 4 key positions. Clubs like ours need a wholesale change. That's why newly promoted clubs have such a hard time in season one. It really has less to do with finance than you think. Football is not run like any other business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 4 hours ago, faraway saint said: FFS, you do know this is never ending, trying to get anywhere with the forum airhead? Says Mr Thicko from Abroath. Mr F Man... Mr Freebie Man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, St.Ricky said: Says Mr Thicko from Abroath. Mr F Man... Mr Freebie Man. Wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 minute ago, faraway saint said: Wow. Wow.. Mr F Man is a WOW. Wily old Wanker. You are simply a sad individual who looks for every opportunity to put people down. It's a reflection of your own weakness. Won't work with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faraway saint Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, St.Ricky said: Wow.. Mr F Man is a WOW. Wily old Wanker. You are simply a sad individual who looks for every opportunity to put people down. It's a reflection of your own weakness. Won't work with me. You win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, oaksoft said: In a normal business you are actually correct. Your budget for the current year is set by what you earned last year as retained profits. Football is not run that way and to an extent it can't be run that way. For example, we would be forced to pay Championship level wages. Clubs have to estimate what they will earn in 2018-19 season in advance in order to budget for this current season. No club in their right mind will have assumed money from the European campaigns. Where you are correct is with player turnover. Established clubs may only need to turn over 3 or 4 key positions. Clubs like ours need a wholesale change. That's why newly promoted clubs have such a hard time in season one. It really has less to do with finance than you think. Football is not run like any other business. What you are talking about for normal businesses is retained profits. I get that. I also get the fact that few football clubs have significant retained profits. You are spot on that last year we were paying Championship wages. Our rivals in the Premiership, Livingston apart, we're paying Premiership wages. As such , last season, they were able to sign better players, most of whom (as you quite rightly say) they will have retained. Every business works on the basis of forecasts for the coming year covering best and worst case scenarios. Football is a high risk business. It makes sense (as you say to take out "extraordinary" income whether this be UEFA or Transfer monies. I agree, and it was implicit in what I wrote, that clubs coming up as St Mirren has need to sign a greater number of "better" players. The money stops there. The rest depends on a number of factors but most notably the relationship between board, manager and fans. The PEST factors in the area also impact strongly, not just in monetary terms. But this discussion is like a piece of string that could keep being extended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 1 hour ago, St.Ricky said: What you are talking about for normal businesses is retained profits. I get that. I also get the fact that few football clubs have significant retained profits. You are spot on that last year we were paying Championship wages. Our rivals in the Premiership, Livingston apart, we're paying Premiership wages. As such , last season, they were able to sign better players, most of whom (as you quite rightly say) they will have retained. Every business works on the basis of forecasts for the coming year covering best and worst case scenarios. Football is a high risk business. It makes sense (as you say to take out "extraordinary" income whether this be UEFA or Transfer monies. I agree, and it was implicit in what I wrote, that clubs coming up as St Mirren has need to sign a greater number of "better" players. The money stops there. The rest depends on a number of factors but most notably the relationship between board, manager and fans. The PEST factors in the area also impact strongly, not just in monetary terms. But this discussion is like a piece of string that could keep being extended. I've read this response 4 times and I THINK you are in full agreement with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 7, 2018 Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 3 hours ago, oaksoft said: I've read this response 4 times and I THINK you are in full agreement with me. Happy to confirm that Oaksoft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 hours ago, St.Ricky said: Happy to confirm that Oaksoft. The word you were looking for is Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St.Ricky Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 Just now, oaksoft said: The word you were looking for is Yes. Why use one word when I could use five? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wendy Saintss Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 In a normal business you are actually correct. Your budget for the current year is set by what you earned last year as retained profits. Football is not run that way and to an extent it can't be run that way. For example, we would be forced to pay Championship level wages. Clubs have to estimate what they will earn in 2018-19 season in advance in order to budget for this current season. No club in their right mind will have assumed money from the European campaigns. Where you are correct is with player turnover. Established clubs may only need to turn over 3 or 4 key positions. Clubs like ours need a wholesale change. That's why newly promoted clubs have such a hard time in season one. It really has less to do with finance than you think. Football is not run like any other business. Wibble! What a pile of shite[emoji1] The businesses that I’ve worked for have set a budget based on the income they realistically expect to bring in in the forthcoming year. I always suspected that your persona on here was made up. Now I know for sure! [emoji1] Businessman my arse! [emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack the lad Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 So, what's the news on the injury front? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cornwall_Saint Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Jack the lad said: So, what's the news on the injury front? Jimmy Nicholl failed medical Stephen McGinn injured since August Eckersley/Rogers back in reserves Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Wendy Saintss said: Wibble! What a pile of shite The businesses that I’ve worked for have set a budget based on the income they realistically expect to bring in in the forthcoming year. I always suspected that your persona on here was made up. Now I know for sure! Businessman my arse! There are also businesses which don't pay their taxes and some who ignore their legal obligations. It doesn't make any of them sound businesses. Maybe when you have actually run your own business rather than working as an employee I will take your advice more seriously. In the meantime, any business following your advice risks folding at any time. Do you ever read the news Wendy? Hmmmmmm...... Edited November 8, 2018 by oaksoft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM1 Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 Kyle Magennis back in full training [emoji106] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack the lad Posted November 8, 2018 Report Share Posted November 8, 2018 2 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said: Jimmy Nicholl failed medical Stephen McGinn injured since August Eckersley/Rogers back in reserves Cheers, thanks for the update and nice to see we're back on topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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