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The Peoples Vote


St.Ricky

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I always wondered what a Russian web bot would look like.
Now I know. :lol:


Actual people have opinions like these. I suppose, however, if you never leave your wee progressive bubble, always mixing with your leftist pals, spiralling ever downwards in a vortex of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance you’d never know that.

You were probably surprised when Scotland voted no, the UK voted leave and America voted for Trump.

I’d get out more, if I were you.
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Guest TPAFKATS





Yes is the answer to your first question. Definitely. It depends on the circumstances is the answer to your second.

I don’t know why, though, you’ve put the word “foreign” in inverted commas... If someone isn’t a citizen of a country they are foreign according to international law, according to cultural background, according to ethnicity (probably) - foreign isn’t a social construct created by fascists to exclude people.

When you bring cultural background and ethnicity into it you just start to sound like a bit of a racist.
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When you bring cultural background and ethnicity into it you just start to sound like a bit of a racist.


Really?

Racism is prejudicial treatment of a person or group on the basis of race and ethnicity. Mentioning the words isn’t racism. Ethnicity and culture are scientific fact - unless you think science is racist.

Herein lies the problem. If we can’t even have a frank and open discussion without one person calling the other a effing idiot or a racist, our country will be driven apart even more than it is.

Acknowledging our differences, discussing them, normalising them and hopefully one day celebrating them is how we nurture unity. Telling someone they are a racist, at the mention of a couple of boogie words, in an attempt to silence them will simply drive those people “underground” where they will find real racists who will be all too quick to accept them.

I’ll say again what I’ve already said, shutting people down, telling them they are racists, making them feel like idiots caused Brexit, it caused Trump, it caused No. Keep on doing it if you want division and never-ending conflict. Open up your mind to the possibility that because someone wants to discuss political sensitive subjects they aren’t necessarily a racist or a bigot, and we may well begin to understand one another and heal our nation’s deep divides.
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Guest TPAFKATS

 

Really?

 

Racism is prejudicial treatment of a person or group on the basis of race and ethnicity. Mentioning the words isn’t racism. Ethnicity and culture are scientific fact - unless you think science is racist.

 

Herein lies the problem. If we can’t even have a frank and open discussion without one person calling the other a effing idiot or a racist, our country will be driven apart even more than it is.

 

Acknowledging our differences, discussing them, normalising them and hopefully one day celebrating them is how we nurture unity. Telling someone they are a racist, at the mention of a couple of boogie words, in an attempt to silence them will simply drive those people “underground” where they will find real racists who will be all too quick to accept them.

 

I’ll say again what I’ve already said, shutting people down, telling them they are racists, making them feel like idiots caused Brexit, it caused Trump, it caused No. Keep on doing it if you want division and never-ending conflict. Open up your mind to the possibility that because someone wants to discuss political sensitive subjects they aren’t necessarily a racist or a bigot, and we may well begin to understand one another and heal our nation’s deep divides.

"Ethnicity and culture are scientific fact" [emoji23]

I'm not attempting to shut you down just pointing out you sound a bit racist when you think ethnicity and cultural background are relevant factors in someone being a citizen of a country.

 

Edit to add :

You claim shutting down people by telling them they are racists caused brexit, trump and a no vote?

That's 3 bold claims you've made without substance that's almost up there with your scientific facts.

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7 hours ago, Losing My Religion said:

 


Really?

Racism is prejudicial treatment of a person or group on the basis of race and ethnicity. Mentioning the words isn’t racism. Ethnicity and culture are scientific fact - unless you think science is racist.

Herein lies the problem. If we can’t even have a frank and open discussion without one person calling the other a effing idiot or a racist, our country will be driven apart even more than it is.

Acknowledging our differences, discussing them, normalising them and hopefully one day celebrating them is how we nurture unity. Telling someone they are a racist, at the mention of a couple of boogie words, in an attempt to silence them will simply drive those people “underground” where they will find real racists who will be all too quick to accept them.

I’ll say again what I’ve already said, shutting people down, telling them they are racists, making them feel like idiots caused Brexit, it caused Trump, it caused No. Keep on doing it if you want division and never-ending conflict. Open up your mind to the possibility that because someone wants to discuss political sensitive subjects they aren’t necessarily a racist or a bigot, and we may well begin to understand one another and heal our nation’s deep divides.

 

If you want people to stop calling you an idiot then you really need to consider not spouting total bollox. I am a fair minded person and I'll give you a chance but saying stuff like "ethnicity and culture are scientific fact" makes you look like a grade A buffoon my friend.

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Don't often discuss politics, I think it's designed to distract away from the real issue where the system we live under has been designed in such a way that uncapped wealth, greed and instability will eventually result in a super rich elite and an enslaved and impoverished lower class who provide for them... however, I'm not so sure that having another "peoples vote" following a yes or no referendum is good if you value democracy. It's a bit like saying - "you voted the wrong way, try again.." I do think Brexit will cause absolute havoc, but the vote has been cast so need to make the best of it.

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27 minutes ago, Doakes said:

Don't often discuss politics, I think it's designed to distract away from the real issue where the system we live under has been designed in such a way that uncapped wealth, greed and instability will eventually result in a super rich elite and an enslaved and impoverished lower class who provide for them... however, I'm not so sure that having another "peoples vote" following a yes or no referendum is good if you value democracy. It's a bit like saying - "you voted the wrong way, try again.." I do think Brexit will cause absolute havoc, but the vote has been cast so need to make the best of it.

Really? Who is enslaving people and keeping them impoverished? This sort of belief genuinely puzzles me. A great many of the richest people in the world came from poverty and worked their way out. Nobody is stopping anyone from getting rich. There are no insurmountable barriers other than a lack of belief,

Edited by oaksoft
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18 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Really? Who is enslaving people and keeping them impoverished? This sort of belief genuinely puzzles me. A great many of the richest people in the world came from poverty and worked their way out. Nobody is stopping anyone from getting rich. There are no insurmountable barriers other than a lack of belief,

If you don't mind me asking, what industry do you work in?

If it's anything related to finance, insurance, customer service, energy, healthcare, IT, manufacturing, tech support, software or retail - you'll probably find your job role is at risk of being replaced by AI in the not too distant future. 

In my own role we're knowingly building a system that will replace our own jobs, and there's feck all we can do about it....

I view that as an insurmountable barrier, unless the system changes quite radically. As it stands, we're not heading in a positive direction

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6 minutes ago, Doakes said:

If you don't mind me asking, what industry do you work in?

If it's anything related to finance, insurance, customer service, energy, healthcare, IT, manufacturing, tech support, software or retail - you'll probably find your job role is at risk of being replaced by AI in the not too distant future. 

In my own role we're knowingly building a system that will replace our own jobs, and there's feck all we can do about it....

I view that as an insurmountable barrier, unless the system changes quite radically. As it stands, we're not heading in a positive direction

While I agree AI will become more used I seriously doubt it will replace people in any great numbers.

In the manufacturing industry, which has seen a decline mainly in the traditional industries, partially to computers (Not AI but similar) it has also seen a increase in other areas that utilise new technology.

Other industries will embrace it and it will lead to growth, and more employment IMO. 

Time will tell. 

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17 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

While I agree AI will become more used I seriously doubt it will replace people in any great numbers.

In the manufacturing industry, which has seen a decline mainly in the traditional industries, partially to computers (Not AI but similar) it has also seen a increase in other areas that utilise new technology.

Other industries will embrace it and it will lead to growth, and more employment IMO. 

Time will tell. 

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Future_of_Jobs_2018.pdf

This is really long, but worth a skim read 

TL;DR

Some job roles will change. A lot of jobs will disappear. Like you say, some new ones created as well.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic!

 

A few quotes from it here

Quote

As technological breakthroughs rapidly shift the frontier between the work tasks performed by humans and those performed by machines and algorithms, global labour markets are undergoing major transformations. These transformations, if managed wisely, could lead to a new age of good work, good jobs and improved quality of life for all, but if managed poorly, pose the risk of widening skills gaps, greater inequality and broader polarisation.

Quote

• A new human-machine frontier within existing tasks: Companies expect a significant shift on the frontier between humans and machines when it comes to existing work tasks between 2018 and 2022. In 2018, an average of 71% of total task hours across the 12 industries covered in the report are performed by humans, compared to 29% by machines. By 2022 this average is expected to have shifted to 58% task hours performed by humans and 42% by machines. In 2018, in terms of total working hours, no work task was yet estimated to be predominantly performed by a machine or an algorithm. By 2022, this picture is projected to have somewhat changed, with machines and algorithms on average increasing their contribution to specific tasks by 57%. For example, by 2022, 62% of organization’s information and data processing and information search and transmission tasks will be performed by machines compared to 46% today

Guess it depends how things are managed, but there is going to be a major shift no matter how you look at it. A lot of companies are already ditching competency based interviews in favour of "emotional intelligence". Think that will be the future. Not sure if being in or out of the EU will put us in a better or worse position to deal with the changes, but will have implications.

 

Edited by Doakes
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17 hours ago, Doakes said:

If you don't mind me asking, what industry do you work in?

If it's anything related to finance, insurance, customer service, energy, healthcare, IT, manufacturing, tech support, software or retail - you'll probably find your job role is at risk of being replaced by AI in the not too distant future. 

In my own role we're knowingly building a system that will replace our own jobs, and there's feck all we can do about it....

I view that as an insurmountable barrier, unless the system changes quite radically. As it stands, we're not heading in a positive direction

I run my own business.

I don't agree with your assessment of those industries. All of the hype is being generated by the companies involved so be very wary of trusting it. As I said elsewhere, companies have been hyping the shite out of AI for more years than I have been born.  20 years ago it was globalisation and outsourcing of IT, software and call centre jobs. Apparently all of those jobs would disappear. Some did, the majority didn't and some of those which went to India came back again within 2 years. There's a great story somewhere about HP in Australia who were himbled into doing the latter if you want to try and find it.

For those jobs which will be lost, retraining is the answer and with the internet you can learn almost anything you like for free.

I have had several career changes in my life and I am currently working on something completely new right now. Our family's expenditure is minimal and we have no real material needs at all. This minimises the amount we need to survive and that makes it easy to provide enough money to have an enjoyable life free from having to work for someone else. We deliberately dont hire staff outside the family and we accept the loss of growth as a result. I believe it is everyone's responsibility to make their own living where possible. You are entitled to be a victim if you want but that's not for me. I am not rich, I dont need to work more than a few hours a week to get enough money in and I grew up on a council estate in a family who were pretty poor.

It's a person's behaviours which trap him, not the actions of others IMO.

Attitude is everything Doakes. Which is why I was genuinely interested in yours. I have never had the sort of victim mentality you described in that post and I wanted to know what drives it in others.

Why are you doing this work if you dont like it?

Why do you feel you have no choice?

What is stopping you changing careers?

Edited by oaksoft
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17 hours ago, faraway saint said:

While I agree AI will become more used I seriously doubt it will replace people in any great numbers.

In the manufacturing industry, which has seen a decline mainly in the traditional industries, partially to computers (Not AI but similar) it has also seen a increase in other areas that utilise new technology.

Other industries will embrace it and it will lead to growth, and more employment IMO. 

Time will tell. 

Manufacturing is an interesting one.

With 3D printing, there is will be a growing ability to compete with China because wages will be taken out of the equation.

That could be a driver for returning manufacturing here.

I think if people stop thinking so much about jobs meaning having to be employed by a company, and start thinking more about self sufficiency, we could easily see a revolution in working life in this country. Those who sit back waiting on others to decide their fate will always be at risk of being made redundant.

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17 hours ago, Doakes said:

http://www3.weforum.org/docs/WEF_Future_of_Jobs_2018.pdf

This is really long, but worth a skim read 

TL;DR

Some job roles will change. A lot of jobs will disappear. Like you say, some new ones created as well.

Maybe I'm just pessimistic!

 

A few quotes from it here

Guess it depends how things are managed, but there is going to be a major shift no matter how you look at it. A lot of companies are already ditching competency based interviews in favour of "emotional intelligence". Think that will be the future. Not sure if being in or out of the EU will put us in a better or worse position to deal with the changes, but will have implications.

 

The same people also wrote this:

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/10/robots-are-coming-to-your-workplace-here-s-how-to-get-along-with-them/

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46 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I run my own business.

I don't agree with your assessment of those industries. All of the hype is being generated by the companies involved so be very wary of trusting it. As I said elsewhere, companies have been hyping the shite out of AI for more years than I have been born.  20 years ago it was globalisation and outsourcing of IT, software and call centre jobs. Apparently all of those jobs would disappear. Some did, the majority didn't and some of those which went to India came back again within 2 years. There's a great story somewhere about HP in Australia who were himbled into doing the latter if you want to try and find it.

For those jobs which will be lost, retraining is the answer and with the internet you can learn almost anything you like for free.

I have had several career changes in my life and I am currently working on something completely new right now. Our family's expenditure is minimal and we have no real material needs at all. This minimises the amount we need to survive and that makes it easy to provide enough money to have an enjoyable life free from having to work for someone else. We deliberately dont hire staff outside the family and we accept the loss of growth as a result. I believe it is everyone's responsibility to make their own living where possible. You are entitled to be a victim if you want but that's not for me. I am not rich, I dont need to work more than a few hours a week to get enough money in and I grew up on a council estate in a family who were pretty poor.

It's a person's behaviours which trap him, not the actions of others IMO.

Attitude is everything Doakes. Which is why I was genuinely interested in yours. I have never had the sort of victim mentality you described in that post and I wanted to know what drives it in others.

Why are you doing this work if you dont like it?

Why do you feel you have no choice?

What is stopping you changing careers?

For me I guess it comes down to loyalty. I've been loyal to my employer, spent the last 9 years of my life building up experience. I know my role and the company I work for inside out. I actually enjoy the job, love the people I work with... so I guess that's what stops me from changing careers. I wouldn't say it's "victim mentality" , more of a reluctance to change.

I'd wager since this is a football forum, there's lots of working class people in a similar position to myself - who have spent their adult life learning a role, only to find that role "replaced" down the line by a computer system, or AI. 

Going back to the original point - I do believe the system is designed in such a way that the current working/middle class will be somewhat eroded. You will either retrain and do very well, (by the sounds of it, like yourself, so fair play to you for that) or not well at all... and sink into the lower/underclass of the pyramid. 

It's fairly easy to pick apart any source by saying "oh but they also posted this", very few sources that don't contain information you can't question or call "fake news" - but you can't ignore that there is a huge change coming, especially in the UK where our workforce is heavily reliant on customer service jobs being available. 

 

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1 hour ago, Doakes said:

For me I guess it comes down to loyalty. I've been loyal to my employer, spent the last 9 years of my life building up experience. I know my role and the company I work for inside out. I actually enjoy the job, love the people I work with... so I guess that's what stops me from changing careers. I wouldn't say it's "victim mentality" , more of a reluctance to change.

I'd wager since this is a football forum, there's lots of working class people in a similar position to myself - who have spent their adult life learning a role, only to find that role "replaced" down the line by a computer system, or AI. 

Going back to the original point - I do believe the system is designed in such a way that the current working/middle class will be somewhat eroded. You will either retrain and do very well, (by the sounds of it, like yourself, so fair play to you for that) or not well at all... and sink into the lower/underclass of the pyramid. 

It's fairly easy to pick apart any source by saying "oh but they also posted this", very few sources that don't contain information you can't question or call "fake news" - but you can't ignore that there is a huge change coming, especially in the UK where our workforce is heavily reliant on customer service jobs being available. 

 

The victim mentality is when you say there is nothing you can do to avoid a situation like this. The actual label doesn't really matter though - it's a personal choice for each person to make. Being made redundant once was enough for me to want to make sure that never happened again. I know where you are coming from on the point about spending years training for something and then finding yourself on the scrapheap. That is permanent employment for you in a nutshell I'm afraid. All those in the age group over 40 are at most risk because finding another job paying well enough to keep their sometimes massive mortgages is a challenge if you don't like proactive change. The worst thing you can do if you are a "no changer" is saddle yourself with debt or material wealth which requires that specific level of wage to keep the lights on and a roof over your head.

I agree that a huge change is coming.

I also agree that those who have an adaptive mindset will survive it and those who resist change are more likely to be crushed by it. We saw this when the ship yards, the steel works and the coal mines all closed. Plenty of people didn't work again.

Life is VERY tough on those who don't like change. Best of luck with this. Genuinely.

I should be straight about one thing though. Self employment has its own problems. If you enjoy the thrill of huge payments in one week and then perhaps many weeks of struggle then that would be the path for you. You learn to be very good with budgets and not to spunk too much money when times are good. For example, we traditionally do no business over the Christmas break and we close down and do other things so the first 10 to 11 months have to bring in enough to cover that period. I have concluded that their really is no easy bulletproof way to live your life free from some level of anxiety. Doesn't mean we have to live in chains though.

Edited by oaksoft
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I read a very good article by a person who is perfectly entitled to have an opinion on a particular matter as it related to his work and what he encounters daily in that employment.

He fell foul however of posting comments on a forum page which drew unbelievable vitriol from a number of posters to the extent that the forum bosses removed him from the page as he was being seen as the bad boy. He wrote an excellent article as to why he wrote and said what he did and finished it off with the following:

"What I find most disconcerting of all, though, is the way in which debate, however reasonable it may be, is getting more and more difficult if you have an alternative point of view. Any casual observer of the political scene will know what I’m talking about. If someone disagrees with what you say they will shout and harangue you. They will resort to abuse and to invective. Over the last 5 to 10 years there has been a noticeable breakdown in civility in this arena. There are many reasons for this, which are too long and too numerous to outline here. Suffice it to say that I find it depressing.

I have removed myself from that particular group, incidentally, and all the online scrappers. It is impossible to wrestle with chimney sweeps and stay clean, so I shan’t bother."

I loved the line;  "It is impossible to wrestle with chimney sweeps and stay clean"

I'm reminded of this episode sadly when I sometime read posts on this forum. The only consolation is that the Mods on here are very unlikely to take much umbrage with what anyone says on a particular subject, unless of course you are  racist and are called out for the obvious slant of your opinion.

Similar to the person I refer to above, being saddened by the fact that debate is stifled by name calling, it surprises me that some articulate posters remain on here for any longer than a single post!

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22 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

The victim mentality is when you say there is nothing you can do to avoid a situation like this. The actual label doesn't really matter though - it's a personal choice for each person to make. Being made redundant once was enough for me to want to make sure that never happened again. I know where you are coming from on the point about spending years training for something and then finding yourself on the scrapheap. That is permanent employment for you in a nutshell I'm afraid. All those in the age group over 40 are at most risk because finding another job paying well enough to keep their sometimes massive mortgages is a challenge if you don't like proactive change. The worst thing you can do if you are a "no changer" is saddle yourself with debt or material wealth which requires that specific level of wage to keep the lights on and a roof over your head.

I agree that a huge change is coming.

I also agree that those who have an adaptive mindset will survive it and those who resist change are more likely to be crushed by it. We saw this when the ship yards, the steel works and the coal mines all closed. Plenty of people didn't work again.

Life is VERY tough on those who don't like change. Best of luck with this. Genuinely.

I should be straight about one thing though. Self employment has its own problems. If you enjoy the thrill of huge payments in one week and then perhaps many weeks of struggle then that would be the path for you. You learn to be very good with budgets and not to spunk too much money when times are good. For example, we traditionally do no business over the Christmas break and we close down and do other things so the first 10 to 11 months have to bring in enough to cover that period. I have concluded that their really is no easy bulletproof way to live your life free from some level of anxiety. Doesn't mean we have to live in chains though.

I get what you're saying. There's always something you can do to change your course - however there's often a fear or reluctance to change in case things don't work out the way you planned. For example, I made the decision to learn Web Development at a local college in my spare time, (thought it would come in useful) but since I gained the qualification, the industry has moved away from what I've actually learned so rapidly that the qualification is effectively useless. 

Lifestyle and financial commitments play a big part in any decision, as well as location, travel etc. If you replicate that issue across the millions of workers in the UK, who find themselves in a position where they need to either learn a new role, or accept a lower skilled job to somewhat maintain their lifestyle, it will almost certainly result in a few horror stories - people losing their homes, getting into huge amounts of debt etc. 

To get back to my original point about Brexit, I do feel it's distracting people who should be concentrating on their own future, rather than obsessing over something they can't actually control. Like you say, there's information available if you go looking for it, but there's a very real threat to the working class that is largely being ignored by our media and politicians. 

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1 hour ago, Doakes said:

I get what you're saying. There's always something you can do to change your course - however there's often a fear or reluctance to change in case things don't work out the way you planned. For example, I made the decision to learn Web Development at a local college in my spare time, (thought it would come in useful) but since I gained the qualification, the industry has moved away from what I've actually learned so rapidly that the qualification is effectively useless. 

Lifestyle and financial commitments play a big part in any decision, as well as location, travel etc. If you replicate that issue across the millions of workers in the UK, who find themselves in a position where they need to either learn a new role, or accept a lower skilled job to somewhat maintain their lifestyle, it will almost certainly result in a few horror stories - people losing their homes, getting into huge amounts of debt etc. 

To get back to my original point about Brexit, I do feel it's distracting people who should be concentrating on their own future, rather than obsessing over something they can't actually control. Like you say, there's information available if you go looking for it, but there's a very real threat to the working class that is largely being ignored by our media and politicians. 

I have a friend who has just had to shut down his website design busimess. He just can't compete with the likes of Wix and GoDaddy etc who can have you up and running with a snazzy and professional website almost immediately. My current idea will need an e-commeerce solution and even there, it looks like a painless thing to do without needing to code.

I was a coder myself a while ago and I remember Java, HTML, C++, C#, Python etc coming in and being worried that I would be left behind. I was an expert in C at the time. That language remains relevant to this day, C++ didn't really replace it entirely so I was lucky. I did not see Web coding disappearing although I always knew that the model of re-using code written by other people would dumb down the entire job. I still maintain that code re-use is the devil's work. It's the easiest route to having legacy code nobody understands anymore and can never fix. I hear stories over developers sitting with the StackOverflow site constantly open on their screens. Glad I am not in that line of work anymore.

As far as Brexit is concerned, I will start paying real attention to it when politicians agree on what it will look like. I can see obvious problems such as science funding which I listed earlier on this read but like you, I cant get overly excited about it just yet. Apart from anything else, I keep changing my bloody mind over it. :D

Edited by oaksoft
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2 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

I read a very good article by a person who is perfectly entitled to have an opinion on a particular matter as it related to his work and what he encounters daily in that employment.

He fell foul however of posting comments on a forum page which drew unbelievable vitriol from a number of posters to the extent that the forum bosses removed him from the page as he was being seen as the bad boy. He wrote an excellent article as to why he wrote and said what he did and finished it off with the following:

"What I find most disconcerting of all, though, is the way in which debate, however reasonable it may be, is getting more and more difficult if you have an alternative point of view. Any casual observer of the political scene will know what I’m talking about. If someone disagrees with what you say they will shout and harangue you. They will resort to abuse and to invective. Over the last 5 to 10 years there has been a noticeable breakdown in civility in this arena. There are many reasons for this, which are too long and too numerous to outline here. Suffice it to say that I find it depressing.

I have removed myself from that particular group, incidentally, and all the online scrappers. It is impossible to wrestle with chimney sweeps and stay clean, so I shan’t bother."

I loved the line;  "It is impossible to wrestle with chimney sweeps and stay clean"

I'm reminded of this episode sadly when I sometime read posts on this forum. The only consolation is that the Mods on here are very unlikely to take much umbrage with what anyone says on a particular subject, unless of course you are  racist and are called out for the obvious slant of your opinion.

Similar to the person I refer to above, being saddened by the fact that debate is stifled by name calling, it surprises me that some articulate posters remain on here for any longer than a single post!

You would be wrong to think this forum was anywhere near the worst place out there.

Try pieandbovril politics forum if you want to see a horror show of intolerance.

By comparison, this place always has been reasonably OK.

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On 10/30/2018 at 7:05 PM, faraway saint said:

While I agree AI will become more used I seriously doubt it will replace people in any great numbers.

In the manufacturing industry, which has seen a decline mainly in the traditional industries, partially to computers (Not AI but similar) it has also seen a increase in other areas that utilise new technology.

Other industries will embrace it and it will lead to growth, and more employment IMO. 

Time will tell. 

Maybe Oran should try AI

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15 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You would be wrong to think this forum was anywhere near the worst place out there.

Try pieandbovril politics forum if you want to see a horror show of intolerance.

By comparison, this place always has been reasonably OK.

Obviously some people like ranting at the moon!

Not sure if it gets them anywhere, but they have the opportunity so they take it.

I'm constantly surprised on a more open forum such as Fb that people openly swear aggressively and attack others with no regard to the fact that it is open, or that they have any regard for any others on the group. :huh:

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