St Johnstone V St Mirren 27.10.18

[Oldfellow]

2 hours ago, buddies1877 said:

 

That’s a load of nonsense we didn’t plan to be in the premiership we can’t pick and choose what season we wish to go up.

We are here and we f**ked up with recruitment simple as that nothing to do with having a few years to plan it all out the board made their first bad appointment looks like damage done is way too much to recover from this year but you never know in football.

We will go back down but we will be back up again at some point we aren’t punching above our weight or punching below.

 

 

I think we are about the correct level as determined by history. Our mean  average position in Scotland since World War 2 has been between twelfth and thirteenth. Sometimes much better sometimes much worse, usually there or thereabouts. I've no doubt we will be relegated but we will come back up. 

Have to confess when we won the championship last year I was overjoyed but when watching the open topped bus couldn't help but think we were over the moon at being thirteenth of Scottish clubs ie our normal position.  I was also a bit hacked off that we didn't win it in style against Livi and at the games near the end we certainly didn't look like champions. In fact we never hammered any opponents during that season apart from Dumbarton at home. That has simply carried over but into a far superior league. Jack may have won us the league but certainly left us in a poor state which he may or may not have succeeded in changing. We will never know. Stubbs to his credit recognised that but totally screwed up trying to recover from it. 

We are where we are and it's not a million miles from where we usually are. I never rated Danny Lennon but he took us above our normal level and also got us a cup which did merit an open topped bus. By reverse Stubbs took us the other direction. Twas always thus

[St.Ricky]

17 hours ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Although JR signed lots of duds during his time he always found enough decent players for our level to improve the team. I think he would have made 2 or 3 good signings in the summer on top of keeping the feel good factor and confidence up in the remnant of last year's squad... and he'd have made 3 or 4 Ok to meh signings too. Hippolyte, Donati and Mullen all seemed like strange signings to make when we were looking like being in with a shout of making the premiership this season, so he could stand accused of short-sighted signings. You might also argue he left a weaker squad than he inherited (Kyle McAllister, Jason Naismith, Stevie Mallan, Lewis Morgan all sold during his reign) although you could counter that by saying he signed enough decent players on our budget.   Ross left before the transfer window opened and after he had told some out of contract players they weren't being offered new deals. He'd cleared out last year's squad of players he didn't see as starting XI players or squad members and had a list of transfer targets which had been scouted.

 

 

No disrespect but your post is all "ifs". The but is that we are where we are and at present we are not very good. Whoever would have been in charge at the end of last season would, like most of us I believe, have known that extensive changes were needed. That's not disrespectful to the players who won the championship. It is the reality of stepping up to a higher and much more physical level. Around 8 -10 out and 5 higher level players in will give us a fighting chance. Simply put, St Johnstone were streets ahead of us.

[Bud the Baker]

1 hour ago, Oldfellow said:

I think we are about the correct level as determined by history. Our mean  average position in Scotland since World War 2 has been between twelfth and thirteenth. Sometimes much better sometimes much worse, usually there or thereabouts. I've no doubt we will be relegated but we will come back up. 

Have to confess when we won the championship last year I was overjoyed but when watching the open topped bus couldn't help but think we were over the moon at being thirteenth of Scottish clubs ie our normal position.  I was also a bit hacked off that we didn't win it in style against Livi and at the games near the end we certainly didn't look like champions. In fact we never hammered any opponents during that season apart from Dumbarton at home. That has simply carried over but into a far superior league. Jack may have won us the league but certainly left us in a poor state which he may or may not have succeeded in changing. We will never know. Stubbs to his credit recognised that but totally screwed up trying to recover from it. 

We are where we are and it's not a million miles from where we usually are. I never rated Danny Lennon but he took us above our normal level and also got us a cup which did merit an open topped bus. By reverse Stubbs took us the other direction. Twas always thus

After the Livi game in April JR was asked "When does the planning for next season begin?" - his reply was "last month".

Unfortunately these plans pretty much went into hold as soon as Ipswich declared their interest in him and we've yet to recover.

I said on P2 of the Ipswich thread it was the worst point in the "season" to lose a manager.

IMO TF should have been more active in pursuing JRs targets, Livi were "officially" managerless too but they were still able to recruit players!

Edited October 28, 2018 by Bud the Baker

[Mr Optimistic]

18 minutes ago, Oldfellow said:

I think we are about the correct level as determined by history. Our mean  average position in Scotland since World War 2 has been between twelfth and thirteenth. Sometimes much better sometimes much worse, usually there or thereabouts. I've no doubt we will be relegated but we will come back up. 

Have to confess when we won the championship last year I was overjoyed but when watching the open topped bus couldn't help but think we were over the moon at being thirteenth of Scottish clubs ie our normal position.  I was also a bit hacked off that we didn't win it in style against Livi and at the games near the end we certainly didn't look like champions. In fact we never hammered any opponents during that season apart from Dumbarton at home. That has simply carried over but into a far superior league. Jack may have won us the league but certainly left us in a poor state which he may or may not have succeeded in changing. We will never know. Stubbs to his credit recognised that but totally screwed up trying to recover from it. 

We are where we are and it's not a million miles from where we usually are. I never rated Danny Lennon but he took us above our normal level and also got us a cup which did merit an open topped bus. By reverse Stubbs took us the other direction. Twas always thus

You weren't the speech writer for Alan Stubbs team talks were you!?

[Cornwall_Saint]

56 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

After the Livi game in April JR was asked "When does the planning for next season begin?" - his reply was "last month".

Unfortunately these plans went into hold as soon as Ipswich declared their interest in him and we've yet to recover.

I said on P2 of the Ipswich thread it was the worst point in the "season" to lose a manager.

IMO TF should have been more active in pursuing JRs targets, Livi were "officially" managerless too but they were still able to recruit players!

Jack had got as far as deciding who would be released and kept on, and signed up Kellerman and P.McGinn. I'm sure he had other targets in mind, so as you say, was it a lack of chasing these guys up, or more of a "let the new man decide" which we did with Stubbs? 

In the case of Livi it's down to Martindale, the "assistant". That's why the "loss" of Kenny Miller was barely noticeable.

[buddies1877]

Definite penalty for Mullen would it have made any difference imo no we would still of been beat because other than sammy defence is atrocious.

Mcginn jones and hodson are awful not good enough for this level.

Watching that I don’t believe we can make as many changes to the squad that is needed in January to give us a chance.

I would only keep prob around 5 players if that if I had the choice

[Callum Gilhooley]

Both full backs were awful . Central defence looked shaky at best . Can’t comment too much about the forwards.... didn’t see them .

[Balmullo Bud]

I know we were well beaten and 2-0 flattered us, but the two St Johnstone penalties were soft to say the least. In the end it doesn’t matter as they were missed, but they both went down like a sack of spuds, with little to no contact. The second one especially looks like a blatant dive to me. Frustrating, after seeing the Mullen one not given. The goals we did lose were really poor though. Grim viewing.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

20 hours ago, W6Saint said:

One thing that’s often surprised me is people’s tendency to lump Ian Murray together with Tommy Craig, and even Alex Rae. The football wasn’t great but we were very much transitioning at that point. I reckon Murray had a tougher job than the other 2 when comparing the point the 3 of them took over from.

We’ll have to do something quite special to reach the levels of dross we did in 14/15 (although we’re giving it a good go) and i’ve not seen us with a more imbalanced squad devoid of so many attributes than the one AR left behind.

Alex Rae left behind a squad which included Jason Naismith, Gary MacKenzie, Jack Baird, Gary Irvine, Stevie Mallan, Lewis Morgan, Kyle McAllister, John Sutton,  and Lawrence Shankland... for a squad competing in the championship.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

11 hours ago, Doakes said:

I think it’s important to remember that we didn’t plan to be in the premier league this season. Only 2 seasons ago we were in the championship, bottom of the table, and punching below our weight. Imo we’re now attempting to punch well above our weight!

 

Jack Ross (all credit to him) lifted us off the canvas and took us to a level we weren’t really prepared for.  That’s showing but I do believe Oran is capable of building a team that can keep us in the division. Every game should be treated as a cup final, got to take points where we can and see if it’s enough....

We had a fair idea by the January transfer window last season when we had pulled into a clear lead and Dundee United were in freefall - and we went out and signed Danny Mullen, Myles Hippolyte and Masimo Donati. We also had more time to plan our summer signings after being one of the first clubs in the UK professional leagues to guarantee an automatic promotion spot. We knew we'd be in the premiership this season before Hamilton, Dundee and Livingston.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Alex Rae left behind a squad which included Jason Naismith, Gary MacKenzie, Jack Baird, Gary Irvine, Stevie Mallan, Lewis Morgan, Kyle McAllister, John Sutton,  and Lawrence Shankland... for a squad competing in the championship.

Shankland was a fat unfit waste of space at that point in his career.
Baird was a rookie and not a first team regular.
McAllister was he still there? If so, he left in the January window?
Didn't Naismith also go in the January window?
Morgan was another rookie who wasn't a first team regular.
But aye Irvine, MacKenzie (when fit) Mallan and Sutton was a decent 'spine'.

[St.Ricky]

30 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

We had a fair idea by the January transfer window last season when we had pulled into a clear lead and Dundee United were in freefall - and we went out and signed Danny Mullen, Myles Hippolyte and Masimo Donati. We also had more time to plan our summer signings after being one of the first clubs in the UK professional leagues to guarantee an automatic promotion spot. We knew we'd be in the premiership this season before Hamilton, Dundee and Livingston.

Whilst I agree that we might have reached the top of the Championship a season earlier than envisaged I also agree that we finished up knowing our fate earlier than others.  

JR threw a spanner in the works by stringing Ipswich and Sunderland along before leaving. ( No complaints from me ). This left us with no manager during a key recruitment period where we already had a shopping list. But would a new manager want these?

The recent appointment of Gus as Technical Director should hopefully avoid us being in the same position again.

[Hambud]

Shankland was a fat unfit waste of space at that point in his career.
Baird was a rookie and not a first team regular.
McAllister was he still there? If so, he left in the January window?
Didn't Naismith also go in the January window?
Morgan was another rookie who wasn't a first team regular.
But aye Irvine, MacKenzie (when fit) Mallan and Sutton was a decent 'spine'.

Think the point is that McAllister and Naismith were part of Jack's squad between him taking over and January which is, as you correctly point out, when they moved on.

It was Jack's decision to sell Naismith and McAllister at that point to free up cash. If I remember correctly there was a lot of people moaning about the decision at the time with people saying we were preparing for third tier football.

[Dibbles old paperboy]

1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

Shankland was a fat unfit waste of space at that point in his career.

Shankland had been on loan with us the previous season and scored 10 league goals (in a side which looked destined for the drop under Ian Murray)

Baird was a rookie and not a first team regular.Jack Baird's first season in the first team was 2014/5 when we were relegated from the premiership and he played 8 times. The following season (Ian Murray / Alex Rae) in the championship he made 31 league appearances. He made a further 25 league appearances in the season where Alex Rae was binned early doors and replaced by Jack Ross.

McAllister was he still there? If so, he left in the January window?Alex Rae gave Kyle McAllister his first team debut at the age of 16 In February 2016. Jack Ross sold him during the winter transfer window the following season after making 14 first team appearances in different competitions that season.
Didn't Naismith also go in the January window?

Naismith was sold in the same January window as Kyle McAllister - both sold by Jack Ross after inheriting a shambles of a squad by Alex Rae- a squad which included Shankland, Baird (first team regular), Gary MacKenzie the injury-prone defender only made 37 first team appearances in 2016/17 (the season Rae was sacked), Stevie Mallan, Lewis Morgan...

Morgan was another rookie who wasn't a first team regular.

Lewis Morgan also made his first team debut the same season as Jack Baird, 2014/5 and played first team football under Tommy Craig, Gary Teale, Ian Murray as well as Alex Rae. He made 8 first team appearances in 2014/5, 22 first team appearances in our first season in the championship, and 46 first team appearances in the season you claim he was 'another rookie who wasn't a first team regular'. He signed a 2 year extension to his contract under Gary Teale and signed a final 1 year extension to his contract when Alex Rae was manager.

But aye Irvine, MacKenzie (when fit) Mallan and Sutton was a decent 'spine'.

 

[Doakes]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:27 AM, santaponsasaint said:

Livingston never planned to be in it period. But they seem to be doing alright. So your reasoning doesnt make much sense.

 

Livingston play a very different style to us though. Tough, hard to break down - and play direct. 

Our style means we need to be better at football than the opposition. Sadly we don't have the players that are capable of doing that! 

We needed to bring in 2 or 3 Lewis Morgan's. Not Cody Cooke and Jeff King 

[Jack the lad]

16 hours ago, buddies1877 said:

Definite penalty for Mullen would it have made any difference imo no we would still of been beat because other than sammy defence is atrocious.

Both Mcginn's,  jones and hodson are awful not good enough for this level.

Watching that I don’t believe we can make as many changes to the squad that is needed in January to give us a chance.

I would only keep prob around 5 players if that if I had the choice

Seriously? Danny divers reputation goes before him.  Anyway as you infer it wouldn't have mattered one iota ,

As for the rest of your post after a slight alteration I agree with. FWIW

[buddies1877]

Seriously? Danny divers reputation goes before him.  Anyway as you infer it wouldn't have mattered one iota ,
As for the rest of your post after a slight alteration I agree with. FWIW

100% does the defender fall over for no reason aswell.

Clumsy defending trips Mullen over and he falls over in the process in a tangle of legs.

Nice a ”St Mirren fan” slating a player which tons of other strikers get away with constantly he doesn’t even come close to the likes of kris Boyd who have seemed to get cheap free kicks his whole career.

[shull]

15 hours ago, buddies1877 said:

100% does the defender fall over for no reason aswell.

Clumsy defending trips Mullen over and he falls over in the process in a tangle of legs.

Nice a ”St Mirren fan” slating a player which tons of other strikers get away with constantly he doesn’t even come close to the likes of kris Boyd who have seemed to get cheap free kicks his whole career.

Why " St Mirren fan " and not St Mirren fan  ? 

[Wendy Saintss]

 

On ‎10‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 11:32 PM, Dibbles old paperboy said:

Shankland was a fat unfit waste of space at that point in his career.

Shankland had been on loan with us the previous season and scored 10 league goals (in a side which looked destined for the drop under Ian Murray)

Baird was a rookie and not a first team regular.Jack Baird's first season in the first team was 2014/5 when we were relegated from the premiership and he played 8 times. The following season (Ian Murray / Alex Rae) in the championship he made 31 league appearances. He made a further 25 league appearances in the season where Alex Rae was binned early doors and replaced by Jack Ross.

McAllister was he still there? If so, he left in the January window?Alex Rae gave Kyle McAllister his first team debut at the age of 16 In February 2016. Jack Ross sold him during the winter transfer window the following season after making 14 first team appearances in different competitions that season.
Didn't Naismith also go in the January window?

Naismith was sold in the same January window as Kyle McAllister - both sold by Jack Ross after inheriting a shambles of a squad by Alex Rae- a squad which included Shankland, Baird (first team regular), Gary MacKenzie the injury-prone defender only made 37 first team appearances in 2016/17 (the season Rae was sacked), Stevie Mallan, Lewis Morgan...

Morgan was another rookie who wasn't a first team regular.

Lewis Morgan also made his first team debut the same season as Jack Baird, 2014/5 and played first team football under Tommy Craig, Gary Teale, Ian Murray as well as Alex Rae. He made 8 first team appearances in 2014/5, 22 first team appearances in our first season in the championship, and 46 first team appearances in the season you claim he was 'another rookie who wasn't a first team regular'. He signed a 2 year extension to his contract under Gary Teale and signed a final 1 year extension to his contract when Alex Rae was manager.

But aye Irvine, MacKenzie (when fit) Mallan and Sutton was a decent 'spine'.

In other words, @TPAFKATS was talking garbage.

Yet again.

[Wendy Saintss]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 11:48 AM, Doakes said:

Livingston play a very different style to us though. Tough, hard to break down - and play direct. 

Our style means we need to be better at football than the opposition. Sadly we don't have the players that are capable of doing that! 

We needed to bring in 2 or 3 Lewis Morgan's. Not Cody Cooke and Jeff King 

So, basically, playing direct football is a superior tactic than trying to 'play football'?

If that is the case, why don't we just switch tactics?

[Jack the lad]

19 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

So, basically, playing direct football is a superior tactic than trying to 'play football'?

If that is the case, why don't we just switch tactics?

Sadly we don't have the personnel to play to their style of tactics either!

[Doakes]

20 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

So, basically, playing direct football is a superior tactic than trying to 'play football'?

If that is the case, why don't we just switch tactics?

There's no denying it's more effective for a newly promoted club. Last year we were the best team in the Championship, playing the best football. Now we're one of the weaker teams in the Prem, but trying to play a similar style... I wouldn't be against playing more direct but we don't have enough physicality to make it work. Pretty sure Jack made a comment about wanting to bring in more physicality towards the end of last season... 

[beyond our ken]

On 10/27/2018 at 11:34 PM, ford prefect said:

On 10/27/2018 at 10:54 PM, Mr Optimistic said:

Condition tonight described as critical so looks like you've got what you hoped for. Hope you are proud of your post.

Absolutely. Maybe he's paying for sins in a previous life. Is that not the sort of thing he'd say?

I'd doubt it, As a born again christian he is unlikely to believe in earthly re-incarnation.  Maybe you know different.

[beyond our ken]

On 10/28/2018 at 10:27 AM, santaponsasaint said:

Livingston never planned to be in it period. But they seem to be doing alright. So your reasoning doesnt make much sense.

 

Livingston seem much more like a club working to a plan than we do.  I'd suggest that they are exactly where they hoped to be at this point.

Edited October 30, 2018 by beyond our ken

[DougJamie]

42 minutes ago, Doakes said:

There's no denying it's more effective for a newly promoted club. Last year we were the best team in the Championship, playing the best football. Now we're one of the weaker teams in the Prem, but trying to play a similar style... I wouldn't be against playing more direct but we don't have enough physicality to make it work. Pretty sure Jack made a comment about wanting to bring in more physicality towards the end of last season... 

If what you are saying is true. What does that about the footballing brains at St Mirren ?

 

Same as Fulham and look how they are getting on........................ you need to adapt, we said ages ago we needed big strong players that would boss and bully, we got Stubbs lot and then 2 midgets from OK.......................... we dont have a front man, we dont have a big defender, we dont have a midfield muscle man................. we dont even have a red card

Wonder if Fitzy still thinks top 6 is on ?