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Lord Pityme

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Nah, not really. It’s a pretty bland article, comments in line with stuff that Alex Smith or Billy Brown has said.

Yeah, a few managers have moved on quickly this season, but I think it’s an exception.  On his point about Lennon, don’t think many fans complained when he left. Yes, a national trophy but football went downhill rapidly. However, if we’d have known it was Tommy Craig then I’m sure opinions were different! 

My own opinion is that you have limited shelf life as a manager in Scotland, purely as you play most teams four times a year. I think Archibald at Thistle is an example of that. 

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2 hours ago, aldo_j said:

Nah, not really. It’s a pretty bland article, comments in line with stuff that Alex Smith or Billy Brown has said.

Yeah, a few managers have moved on quickly this season, but I think it’s an exception.  On his point about Lennon, don’t think many fans complained when he left. Yes, a national trophy but football went downhill rapidly. However, if we’d have known it was Tommy Craig then I’m sure opinions were different! 

My own opinion is that you have limited shelf life as a manager in Scotland, purely as you play most teams four times a year. I think Archibald at Thistle is an example of that. 

This is filling space, something the BBC are really good at......

There are different situations and reasons for partings. Chairman has every right to be picky....

The Morton V Falkirk game should be interesting when the two chairmen meet  

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2 hours ago, aldo_j said:

Nah, not really. It’s a pretty bland article, comments in line with stuff that Alex Smith or Billy Brown has said.

Yeah, a few managers have moved on quickly this season, but I think it’s an exception.  On his point about Lennon, don’t think many fans complained when he left. Yes, a national trophy but football went downhill rapidly. However, if we’d have known it was Tommy Craig then I’m sure opinions were different! 

My own opinion is that you have limited shelf life as a manager in Scotland, purely as you play most teams four times a year. I think Archibald at Thistle is an example of that. 

When Lennon left we had no idea who would come in. My feeling at the time was that there was no point letting Lennon go without a better man to come in. Fans were obsessed with this notion that we should've been a top 6 team - the League Cup win papered over the cracks apparently. The cracks became gaping chasms when Lennon was replaced with dud after dud until Jack came in to arrest the decline.

Managers will have a far better chance of achieving things if given time and patience by a club and its fans. As we've seen, chopping and changing is a recipe for disaster. Let's hope we stick with our current manager long enough for him to build a team we can be proud of again.

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2 hours ago, aldo_j said:

Nah, not really. It’s a pretty bland article, comments in line with stuff that Alex Smith or Billy Brown has said.

Yeah, a few managers have moved on quickly this season, but I think it’s an exception.  On his point about Lennon, don’t think many fans complained when he left. Yes, a national trophy but football went downhill rapidly. However, if we’d have known it was Tommy Craig then I’m sure opinions were different! 

My own opinion is that you have limited shelf life as a manager in Scotland, purely as you play most teams four times a year. I think Archibald at Thistle is an example of that. 

Said that before on here and got a bit of flak for it...…………….

Quote

McInally believes many clubs hold unrealistic ambitions and are quick to dismiss bosses when they fall short of lofty goals.

Most of us like to hear Tony talking positive but it seemed to be a factor in Robbie Neilson rejecting us back in May, probably also a factor in the sackings of GM & DL altough both were before his time. 

*****************

Like you said McInally isn't really saying anything new but its hard not to think that some sackings are a bit premature although I suppose I don't really follow events at other clubs with the same degree of scrutiny I do for Saints.

 

https://www.pieandbovril.com/forum/index.php?/topic/154044-in-the-hot-seat/&page=15&tab=comments#comment-12475899

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6 minutes ago, Soctty said:

When Lennon left we had no idea who would come in. My feeling at the time was that there was no point letting Lennon go without a better man to come in. Fans were obsessed with this notion that we should've been a top 6 team - the League Cup win papered over the cracks apparently. The cracks became gaping chasms when Lennon was replaced with dud after dud until Jack came in to arrest the decline.

Managers will have a far better chance of achieving things if given time and patience by a club and its fans. As we've seen, chopping and changing is a recipe for disaster. Let's hope we stick with our current manager long enough for him to build a team we can be proud of again.

I was one of the people annoyed when we didn't renew Danny Lennon's contract. I didn't think he was the best manager out there but did think he had done a decent job over the piece and was a pretty good match for us as a club. By his final season around half the starting XI had come through the academy ranks. Despite appreciating the job Jack Ross did I wasn't convinced that had he stayed on for 2 seasons in the SPL he'd have bettered an 8th place finish in the top league or had us in the top 6, and Lennon's record in the cups was pretty decent, we were usually in a quarter final most seasons not including the League Cup victory. And as for under-achieving with the squad he had at his disposal, Paul McGowan finished in the top 6 once after leaving St Mirren, Kenny McLean did it every season with Aberdeen, Darren McGregor and John McGinn did it once with Hibs last season; it was always a myth we had a squad full of top 6 players (PS who recruited and promoted them from the academy?) let down by a second-rate manager.

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7 minutes ago, Dibbles old paperboy said:

I was one of the people annoyed when we didn't renew Danny Lennon's contract. I didn't think he was the best manager out there but did think he had done a decent job over the piece and was a pretty good match for us as a club. By his final season around half the starting XI had come through the academy ranks. Despite appreciating the job Jack Ross did I wasn't convinced that had he stayed on for 2 seasons in the SPL he'd have bettered an 8th place finish in the top league or had us in the top 6, and Lennon's record in the cups was pretty decent, we were usually in a quarter final most seasons not including the League Cup victory. And as for under-achieving with the squad he had at his disposal, Paul McGowan finished in the top 6 once after leaving St Mirren, Kenny McLean did it every season with Aberdeen, Darren McGregor and John McGinn did it once with Hibs last season; it was always a myth we had a squad full of top 6 players (PS who recruited and promoted them from the academy?) let down by a second-rate manager.

Me as well................I remember saying specifically "Be careful what you wish for"........................:rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, aldo_j said:

Nah, not really. It’s a pretty bland article, comments in line with stuff that Alex Smith or Billy Brown has said.

Yeah, a few managers have moved on quickly this season, but I think it’s an exception.  On his point about Lennon, don’t think many fans complained when he left. Yes, a national trophy but football went downhill rapidly. However, if we’d have known it was Tommy Craig then I’m sure opinions were different! 

My own opinion is that you have limited shelf life as a manager in Scotland, purely as you play most teams four times a year. I think Archibald at Thistle is an example of that. 

Not true, in most other walks of life most other managers do the same thing week-in and year-out,  Football should be no different as it is continuity that is the key to success for teams that don't enjoy the same slice of the cake as the old firm.

 

In my experience, he is spot on, when you have a disconnect between Directors and any workforce then you are inviting stagnation and then decline.  He is doing exactly the right thing by doing what a manager should do and that is keeping everyone connected and helping them understand EVERYTHING that is going on.  Directors will continue to make mistakes for as long as they fail to see the fall-out from bad decisions whilst congratulating themselves for the odd good one.

Edited by beyond our ken

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18 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Not true, in most other walks of life most other managers do the same thing week-in and year-out,  Football should be no different as it is continuity that is the key to success for teams that don't enjoy the same slice of the cake as the old firm.

 

In my experience, he is spot on, when you have a disconnect between Directors and any workforce then you are inviting stagnation and then decline.  He is doing exactly the right thing by doing what a manager should do and that is keeping everyone connected and helping them understand EVERYTHING that is going on.  Directors will continue to make mistakes for as long as they fail to see the fall-out from bad decisions whilst congratulating themselves for the odd good one.

I’m not sure you can quite compare industry to football though, but that’s just a personal view.

football is a bit like fashion, with styles and tactics moving in cycles. What worked once for Mourinho doesn’t work so well these days. His challenge is now about overcoming that, and I don’t think the ‘standard’ football manager can do that.

not sure of stats etc, but would be interesting to see how many managers from Scotland, going back 10 years, are still in the game.

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8 minutes ago, aldo_j said:

I’m not sure you can quite compare industry to football though, but that’s just a personal view.

football is a bit like fashion, with styles and tactics moving in cycles. What worked once for Mourinho doesn’t work so well these days. His challenge is now about overcoming that, and I don’t think the ‘standard’ football manager can do that.

not sure of stats etc, but would be interesting to see how many managers from Scotland, going back 10 years, are still in the game.

Mcleish- but thats debatable :whistle

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37 minutes ago, aldo_j said:

I’m not sure you can quite compare industry to football though, but that’s just a personal view.

football is a bit like fashion, with styles and tactics moving in cycles. What worked once for Mourinho doesn’t work so well these days. His challenge is now about overcoming that, and I don’t think the ‘standard’ football manager can do that.

not sure of stats etc, but would be interesting to see how many managers from Scotland, going back 10 years, are still in the game.

Yes styles, tactics, science all evolve and bring change, but not in a handful of games! 

Lets say A club appoint a manager called Brian Crubbs. He's had a couple of management jobs, played the game to a high level, and had some success at both, along with failures.

club A, appoint Brian after scouring available talent at home and abroad, some with stunning CV's. Club A decide that the overseas candidates arent "realistic" options as it would mean shelling out for they and their families travel and accommodation, so opt for the best of the home apllicants. One or more of these say thanks, but no thanks sighting available budget -v - unrealistic expectations.

eventually the apparent best of the bunch left is appointed. He makes an uninspiring start in pre season games, doesnt intially recruit experience, but wins his first league game. He then loses against two top three sides as well as the club's nearest comparative in the league and the people who sought him out, insisted he was 'the man' sack him weeks later.

in every other business when a new mannager is not performing as anticipated, responsible employers (who after all were the ones who insisted he was the right man for the job) immediately implement a support programme to guide, coach and mentor their big investment to improve his performance. But seemingly not in football, where its easier to blame the guy who is down, sack them and then insist this time we really have recruited the right guy... 

Edited by Lord Pityme

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1 hour ago, Soctty said:

When Lennon left we had no idea who would come in. My feeling at the time was that there was no point letting Lennon go without a better man to come in. Fans were obsessed with this notion that we should've been a top 6 team - the League Cup win papered over the cracks apparently. The cracks became gaping chasms when Lennon was replaced with dud after dud until Jack came in to arrest the decline.

Managers will have a far better chance of achieving things if given time and patience by a club and its fans. As we've seen, chopping and changing is a recipe for disaster. Let's hope we stick with our current manager long enough for him to build a team we can be proud of again.

 

Point taken about not having a suitable replacement for Lennon, but I'm not so sure that it was lofty expectations from fans that was his downfall. 

Remember his initial Cowdenbeath wave of recruitment was pretty bad  (although McGregor was a success).  

I think he got pretty lucky the next seasons in having Thommo and Teale coming to the club through other figures (Thommo local lad and Teale knowing Brian Caldwell).  Then we had the success of Newcastle guys the following season (set up by Tommy Craig ?). 

You would have to give him credit where it's due for signings like Goodwin however. 

Nevertheless, I thought he got a good roll of the dice with some of the players that came to the club and pushed us to a cup win. We struggled a lot outwith that. I had the impression that he wouldn't be the sort of guy that commanded the respect of the dressing room but who knows. 

 

 

Edited by Maboza

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Yes styles, tactics, science all evolve and bring change, but not in a handful of games! 
Lets say A club appoint a manager called Brian Crubbs. He's had a couple of management jobs, played the game to a high level, and had some success at both, along with failures.
club A, appoint Brian after scouring available talent at home and abroad, some with stunning CV's. Club A decide that the overseas candidates arent "realistic" options as it would mean shelling out for they and their families travel and accommodation, so opt for the best of the home apllicants. One or more of these say thanks, but no thanks sighting available budget -v - unrealistic expectations.
eventually the apparent best of the bunch left is appointed. He makes an uninspiring start in pre season games, doesnt intially recruit experience, but wins his first league game. He then loses against two top three sides as well as the club's nearest comparative in the league and the people who sought him out, insisted he was 'the man' sack him weeks later.
in every other business when a new mannager is not performing as anticipated, responsible employers (who after all were the ones who insisted he was the right man for the job) immediately implement a support programme to guide, coach and mentor their big investment to improve his performance. But seemingly not in football, where its easier to blame the guy who is down, sack them and then insist this time we really have recruited the right guy... 
Let it go, he was given every opportunity to make a success of it, his recruitment and man management weren't up to scratch, he's gone and we've moved on.

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3 minutes ago, StanleySaint said:
30 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:
Yes styles, tactics, science all evolve and bring change, but not in a handful of games! 
Lets say A club appoint a manager called Brian Crubbs. He's had a couple of management jobs, played the game to a high level, and had some success at both, along with failures.
club A, appoint Brian after scouring available talent at home and abroad, some with stunning CV's. Club A decide that the overseas candidates arent "realistic" options as it would mean shelling out for they and their families travel and accommodation, so opt for the best of the home apllicants. One or more of these say thanks, but no thanks sighting available budget -v - unrealistic expectations.
eventually the apparent best of the bunch left is appointed. He makes an uninspiring start in pre season games, doesnt intially recruit experience, but wins his first league game. He then loses against two top three sides as well as the club's nearest comparative in the league and the people who sought him out, insisted he was 'the man' sack him weeks later.
in every other business when a new mannager is not performing as anticipated, responsible employers (who after all were the ones who insisted he was the right man for the job) immediately implement a support programme to guide, coach and mentor their big investment to improve his performance. But seemingly not in football, where its easier to blame the guy who is down, sack them and then insist this time we really have recruited the right guy... 

Let it go, he was given every opportunity to make a success of it, his recruitment and man management weren't up to scratch, he's gone and we've moved on.

I agree, people should let it go..................that's for both sides of the Stubbs situation. 

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57 minutes ago, Maboza said:

 

Point taken about not having a suitable replacement for Lennon, but I'm not so sure that it was lofty expectations from fans that was his downfall. 

Remember his initial Cowdenbeath wave of recruitment was pretty bad  (although McGregor was a success).  

I think he got pretty lucky the next seasons in having Thommo and Teale coming to the club through other figures (Thommo local lad and Teale knowing Brian Caldwell).  Then we had the success of Newcastle guys the following season (set up by Tommy Craig ?). 

You would have to give him credit where it's due for signings like Goodwin however. 

Nevertheless, I thought he got a good roll of the dice with some of the players that came to the club and pushed us to a cup win. We struggled a lot outwith that. I had the impression that he wouldn't be the sort of guy that commanded the respect of the dressing room but who knows. 

 

 

I'd much rather have a lucky manager than most of the rubbish we've had since. Lennon was, and probably always will be, underappreciated for what he did with us. Give us 8th place finishes and most of us would be quite content, with the odd cup run thrown in. To win a national trophy was an outstanding achievement, one which most managers will never get close to at a club like ours.

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1 minute ago, Soctty said:

I'd much rather have a lucky manager than most of the rubbish we've had since. Lennon was, and probably always will be, underappreciated for what he did with us. Give us 8th place finishes and most of us would be quite content, with the odd cup run thrown in. To win a national trophy was an outstanding achievement, one which most managers will never get close to at a club like ours.

Agreed.

This nonsense about "luck" and the cup win "papering over the cracks" is nonsense.

If that's the case every other manager since then has just been "unlucky"..............................:wink:

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I wasn't particularly fussed either way when Lennon left, but I'd probably only cite the "shelf life/time for fresh ideas" argument for my ambivalence. I certainly didn't mind Danny and thought he did a decent job in his years in charge. That said, with the shower of shite that followed, I was pining for him until JR arrived.

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23 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

I wasn't particularly fussed either way when Lennon left, but I'd probably only cite the "shelf life/time for fresh ideas" argument for my ambivalence. I certainly didn't mind Danny and thought he did a decent job in his years in charge. That said, with the shower of shite that followed, I was pining for him until JR arrived.

Danny brought us a cup win and will be and should be remembered for that and the more than decent league positions during his tenure.  The board, for whatever reason, possibly cost decided to replace him and then another subsequent manager through internal appointments before looking outside once more.  The board by then we're well into a holding pattern which added to our decline. It's not just managers that might  have a shelf life. 

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3 hours ago, Soctty said:

When Lennon left we had no idea who would come in. My feeling at the time was that there was no point letting Lennon go without a better man to come in. Fans were obsessed with this notion that we should've been a top 6 team - the League Cup win papered over the cracks apparently. The cracks became gaping chasms when Lennon was replaced with dud after dud until Jack came in to arrest the decline.

 

Lennon was sacked on the Monday, Craig (remember when he was the brains of the operation :lol:) was appointed manager for 2 years on the Tuesday & Teale/Goodwin coaches on the Wednesday.

It obviously didn't work out but IMO the plan (& it was apparent DL was going after the board meeting the previous week) was for continuity with Craig knowing DLs targets and for him to pass on the baton to Teale/Goodwin after the two years were up.

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8 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Lennon was sacked on the Monday, Craig (remember when he was the brains of the operation :lol:) was appointed manager for 2 years on the Tuesday & Teale/Goodwin coaches on the Wednesday.

It obviously didn't work out but IMO the plan (& it was apparent DL was going after the board meeting the previous week) was for continuity with Craig knowing DLs targets and for him to pass on the baton to Teale/Goodwin after the two years were up.

Nothing wrong with the logic of growing your own management team (especially at that point,  if it cut running costs) 

Edited by St.Ricky

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1 hour ago, StanleySaint said:
1 hour ago, Lord Pityme said:
Yes styles, tactics, science all evolve and bring change, but not in a handful of games! 
Lets say A club appoint a manager called Brian Crubbs. He's had a couple of management jobs, played the game to a high level, and had some success at both, along with failures.
club A, appoint Brian after scouring available talent at home and abroad, some with stunning CV's. Club A decide that the overseas candidates arent "realistic" options as it would mean shelling out for they and their families travel and accommodation, so opt for the best of the home apllicants. One or more of these say thanks, but no thanks sighting available budget -v - unrealistic expectations.
eventually the apparent best of the bunch left is appointed. He makes an uninspiring start in pre season games, doesnt intially recruit experience, but wins his first league game. He then loses against two top three sides as well as the club's nearest comparative in the league and the people who sought him out, insisted he was 'the man' sack him weeks later.
in every other business when a new mannager is not performing as anticipated, responsible employers (who after all were the ones who insisted he was the right man for the job) immediately implement a support programme to guide, coach and mentor their big investment to improve his performance. But seemingly not in football, where its easier to blame the guy who is down, sack them and then insist this time we really have recruited the right guy... 

Let it go, he was given every opportunity to make a success of it, his recruitment and man management weren't up to scratch, he's gone and we've moved on.

This is about fictious manager Brian Crubbs and Club A, dont know wht you want yo let go of, or whats hit your nerve? Just demonstrating what happens in most other businesses when a new appointment is visibly struggling, and what most people would expect yheir employer to do for them if they were finding it difficult in a new job.

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LPM.  There is sense in what you write but it doesn't change what has happened. But it may have credibility with the appointment of the current  manager and a technical director. 

in other words - that's what we have in place now.  I'm happy with that.  Sound business practice,  if a little late. 

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22 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Lennon was sacked on the Monday, Craig (remember when he was the brains of the operation :lol:) was appointed manager for 2 years on the Tuesday & Teale/Goodwin coaches on the Wednesday.

It obviously didn't work out but IMO the plan (& it was apparent DL was going after the board meeting the previous week) was for continuity with Craig knowing DLs targets and for him to pass on the baton to Teale/Goodwin after the two years were up.

It's certainly a plan to rival any other for the crown of 'Worst Plan Of All Time'. 

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