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waldorf34

SMiSA Chairman

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5 hours ago, Sonny said:

That is a disservice to marketing graduates. In their final year they have to find a local company and how they operate then come up with a marketing strategy which they then help implement. This is supervised and monitored at all stages with the University. The Company gets free marketing advice for 6 months and may choose to keep the graduate on after they leave Uni. I have always thought it was an ideal scenario for the Club to get a bright young thing full of the latest marketing ploys for free. And it is a course requirement for the student and provides them with valuable business experience for their CV.

There are a variety of ways in which The Club, SMISA, The Trust can work with Universities.  Not only with undergraduates but also with MBA and PhD students.  Not all of these have been free.  Some have and some have not. 

These include Business Plans,  Business Case,  Marketing Research and Marketing Plans etc.  I have acted as a mentor to Students at each of these levels over the past number of years.  Many still keep in touch and meet up to discuss career issues later in their career or to ask that I make introductions to assist them in research or job seeking.  

I only post this to support the poster who suggested the topic be put forward as a question. 

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You are a business owner, Oaky.  You came out with that pish, as was sagely predicted.  :)

In trying to rebut me, you utilise weasel words (but still failed) when you admitted the labour would be unpaid.

" It would not be free labour, it would be UNPAID labour."

One of the companies I do business with has an ever-changing shoal of free/unpaid/exploited labour.

 

They 'dignify' the exploitation by calling them 'interns'.  You could try THAT one...

It wouldn't make it any more morally sound or unexploitative, though.

 

Edited by antrin

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16 minutes ago, antrin said:

You are a business owner, Oaky.  You came out with that pish, as was sagely predicted.  :)

In trying to rebut me, you utilise weasel words (but still failed) when you admitted the labour would be unpaid.

" It would not be free labour, it would be UNPAID labour."

One of the companies I do business with has an ever-changing shoal of free/unpaid/exploited labour.

 

They 'dignify' the exploitation by calling them 'interns'.  You could try THAT one...

It wouldn't make it any more morally sound or unexploitative, though.

 

So what?

Who cares what you think?

Certainly not the shoals of young people who benefit from unpaid internships.

Why does it bother you that people will do whatever it takes to get on in life?

Not one of those kids is forced to work unpaid. They are not victims and willingly volunteer for such internships.

Those who have a problem with this are perfectly free to attempt to find paid work instead.

Who are you to think you know what is best for them?

 

Edited by oaksoft

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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

So what?

Who cares what you think?

Certainly not the shoals of young people who benefit from unpaid internships.

Why does it bother you that people will do whatever it takes to get on in life?

They are not victims and willingly volunteer for such internships. Who are you to think you know what is best for them?

Busted and Floundering! :lol:

Anyone that would have to sit in an office with you all day should be handsomely rewarded, and certainly not forced to do it for free because your generation have rattled through our national resources, wealth, and opportunities with nothing to show for it.

This is going wildly off topic, but regardless of your opinion internships, zero hour contracts and other ways the likes of Oaky would exploit our youth, I can assure everyone that the solution to St Mirren's profitability problems is not going to be some marketing intern from one of Britain's worst universities.

If so concerned about marketing to the younger generation, go sit in W7 and help them out.

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5 minutes ago, Kemp said:

Busted and Floundering! :lol:

Anyone that would have to sit in an office with you all day should be handsomely rewarded, and certainly not forced to do it for free because your generation have rattled through our national resources, wealth, and opportunities with nothing to show for it.

This is going wildly off topic, but regardless of your opinion internships, zero hour contracts and other ways the likes of Oaky would exploit our youth, I can assure everyone that the solution to St Mirren's profitability problems is not going to be some marketing intern from one of Britain's worst universities.

If so concerned about marketing to the younger generation, go sit in W7 and help them out.

Again, who is being FORCED to do any of this?

I'm beginning to think both you and antrin are suffering from whiny old bastard syndrome.

Symptoms include an inability to read what people are posting, an inability to believe that young people are capable of making their own career and life decisions without pensioners telling them what to think and a seemingly endless amount of rage against a world which has moved on from the 1950s.

Personally I couldn't give a shit about young people so I'll give W7 a miss thanks. I do respect their right to make their own life decisions though.

By the way, that bit you have underlined? Why would you think I had nothing to show for my efforts? What a bizarre thing to say. :lol:

Edited by oaksoft

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11 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

So what?

Who cares what you think?

Certainly not the shoals of young people who benefit from unpaid internships.

Why does it bother you that people will do whatever it takes to get on in life?

Not one of those kids is forced to work unpaid. They are not victims and willingly volunteer for such internships.

Those who have a problem with this are perfectly free to attempt to find paid work instead.

Who are you to think you know what is best for them?

 

YOU care!  :)

Such a rant!!   :D

I had an apprenticeship.

In was a moral deal. 

 

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4 minutes ago, antrin said:

YOU care!  :)

Such a rant!!   :D

I had an apprenticeship.

In was a moral deal. 

 

I don't care because I don't have employees of any kind, let alone interns.

A blind man could see the advantages of it. I've used them myself on two occasions.

You seem to be struggling to keep up and I have things to do so I'll leave you and Kemp to howl at the moon. :lol:

Bigger picture antrin. Bigger picture.

Your inability to see it is not my concern.

Edited by oaksoft

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3 hours ago, faraway saint said:

1st paragraph, deflection, nothing to do with my original point. :lol:

2nd paragraph, TBH going by your numerous posts in defending EVERYTHING about the club you would eat dog shit and say yummy.  :green

I also mentioned the much maligned St Mirren TV which is average, at best. 

As has been mentioned, who made you the mouthpiece in this, and a few other threads? 

I’m really not sure what you think I’m deflecting from but you pretty much addressing that I answer your point, kinda makes the ‘deflection’ point obsolete, no? 

Yet again (reason I keep bringing it up is because you clearly don’t understand it) I have no issue with people having a different opinion. If people think the food isn’t good enough or that SMTV should be better, fine.

Me pointing out certain people are needlessly negative about absolutely anything and wouldn’t know constructive criticism if it ran naked across the park at half time, is completely true. 

A perfect example of this is SMTV... it’s fecking SMTV, what you expecting a cross between Avatar graphics and breaking bad storylines? Or maybe you don’t think I’m allowed that opinion :rolleyes:

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3 hours ago, shull said:

Why is not best of gear at the various Pie Huts ? 

Would be good if it was. Unfortunately this is practically an all of Scottish football issue. Maximise profit and minimise cost is a brutal part of food at games but I don’t see it changing. Would need all clubs to do the same or all fans to boycott 

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8 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I don't care because I don't have employees of any kind, let alone interns.

A blind man could see the advantages of it. I've used them myself on two occasions.

You seem to be struggling to keep up and I have things to do so I'll leave you and Kemp to howl at the moon. :lol:

Bigger picture antrin. Bigger picture.

Your inability to see it is not my concern.

Jesus, completely agree with you 100% 

a person would have to be exceptionally out of touch not to. Give the students the choice between 

- unpaid internships that could further their career and income potential 

- no internships for a number of companies because they simply can’t afford the luxury. 

Wonder what they’d choose... 

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11 hours ago, bazil85 said:

Jesus, completely agree with you 100% 

a person would have to be exceptionally out of touch not to. Give the students the choice between 

- unpaid internships that could further their career and income potential 

- no internships for a number of companies because they simply can’t afford the luxury. 

Wonder what they’d choose... 

It has been recognised as a grubby little industry for quite some time now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/11/magazine/the-internship-rip-off.html

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/21/ripping-off-young-interns-queen-vaz

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/05/17/when-students-pay-tuition-work-unpaid-internships

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn783e/paid-for-internships-abroad-work-experience

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8355714.stm

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/unpaid-internships-scam

https://www.smh.com.au/business/australia-challenges-unpaid-internships-20141110-11juo1.html

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Back on something St Mirren related, the SMFC TV set up is actually a very good example of University-Industry collaboration. This is real hands-on experience, one day a week during the University course, and hopefully enjoyable for all involved.

Sadly the reality of most internships is being a dogsbody for exploitative Fagin-esque characters like Oaksoft (while listening to them boast about how they do whats best for young people).

The SMFC TV quality is always very poor at the start of the season though, its clearly a steep learning curve. I think thats fine for a match streaming service for a couple of hundred diehards, not for corporate hospitality events where companies could be paying four-figure sums for a day.

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2 hours ago, Kemp said:

Isolated incidents for a number of these and I never once said there are not companies that abuse internships. Much in the way there are companies that abuse zero hour contracts, cash in hand working, minimum & working wage workers. All you’ve demonstrated here is that some companies are less than perfect... who knew? Oh right, everyone. 

Internships as a concept can be and often are a very successful way for young people to get experience. and again if you ask students to choose between unpaid and no internship which would often be the choice, you’d get one overwhelming response. 

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2 hours ago, Kemp said:

Back on something St Mirren related, the SMFC TV set up is actually a very good example of University-Industry collaboration. This is real hands-on experience, one day a week during the University course, and hopefully enjoyable for all involved.

Sadly the reality of most internships is being a dogsbody for exploitative Fagin-esque characters like Oaksoft (while listening to them boast about how they do whats best for young people).

The SMFC TV quality is always very poor at the start of the season though, its clearly a steep learning curve. I think thats fine for a match streaming service for a couple of hundred diehards, not for corporate hospitality events where companies could be paying four-figure sums for a day.

What’s your evidence for the ‘most internships’ ‘exploitation’ comment?

Most internships are handed out by bigger companies, bigger companies generally hold more reputations weight, most if not all internships add value to a persons CV. 

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4 hours ago, Kemp said:

I think it is worth repeating.

Nobody is being forced to do any of these internships.

You do realise that right?

I ask again because it appears to have escaped your notice.

I particularly enjoyed reading the whiny nonsense about one of them complaining that they were only making tea but they stayed in the job anyway rather than quit. This is just entitled victimhood.

Edited by oaksoft

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3 hours ago, bazil85 said:

What’s your evidence for the ‘most internships’ ‘exploitation’ comment?

Most internships are handed out by bigger companies, bigger co with mpanies generally hold more reputations weight, most if not all internships add value to a persons CV. 

Did you grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth ?  Exploitation is rigged through out the work place today for young people.  Your constant sound bite of they don't have to do it is only right wing conservative pompous crap. Zero hour contracts , food banks, the homeless the list goes on and on. Never mind as long as you can jump in your Volvo with your cashmere polo-neck to Waitrose , a pheasant for dinner in your warm dining room with it's cream carpet and log fire. Meanwhile outside your bubble 30 kids a day ( Scotland ) are becoming homeless having to stay in one room digs with their whole family. But what does that matter to you. Nothing sums you up to a T. 

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It is a fact that the hospitality food is already produced by low, cost, low paid employees and possibly students from UWS. Its already happening.

The club moved from a reputable hospitality/catering professional, to a cheap &cheerless canteen food provider, but actually increased the cost to the customer for a quite literally 'watered down' piss poor option.

anuyway on to the club Christmas draw results...

First Prize - A corporate hospitality day out for two at a home Premiership match.

Second Prize - Two corporate hospitality days out for two at home premiership matches....

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2 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

Did you grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth ?  Exploitation is rigged through out the work place today for young people.  Your constant sound bite of they don't have to do it is only right wing conservative pompous crap. Zero hour contracts , food banks, the homeless the list goes on and on. Never mind as long as you can jump in your Volvo with your cashmere polo-neck to Waitrose , a pheasant for dinner in your warm dining room with it's cream carpet and log fire. Meanwhile outside your bubble 30 kids a day ( Scotland ) are becoming homeless having to stay in one room digs with their whole family. But what does that matter to you. Nothing sums you up to a T. 

1. What's my upbringing got to do with anything? 

2. I actually said exploitation happens regularly in the workplace quoting a few examples, if you read back you'll see that. No need to apologise.

3. I wasn't the one that said they don't have to do it, although he is right in what he says, we aren't talking about forced labour here which is an issue in this country to an extent when we consider zero hour contracts, minimum wages, contract working, people having to have two jobs to feed their families, all stuff I think is terrible.

4. I said often companies can't afford the luxury of internships so it's either unpaid ones or nothing in many cases. Unless you can show me evidence that students today would take the latter, it's true. It's also true they add value.

4. That's absolutely nothing to do with right/ left wing politics. I'd love if it was a fact of life that all internships were paid and it didn't cause numbers to fall. It just ins't the case and is idealistic thinking in today's economy.  That doesn't mean I support it, I'm stating facts, you have very clearly confused the two. 

5. You've then started to ramble on as if I'm not bothered with the many issues in our society like homelessness and food banks. feel free to point out even a hint of that being my view. 

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34 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

1. What's my upbringing got to do with anything? 

2. I actually said exploitation happens regularly in the workplace quoting a few examples, if you read back you'll see that. No need to apologise.

3. I wasn't the one that said they don't have to do it, although he is right in what he says, we aren't talking about forced labour here which is an issue in this country to an extent when we consider zero hour contracts, minimum wages, contract working, people having to have two jobs to feed their families, all stuff I think is terrible.

4. I said often companies can't afford the luxury of internships so it's either unpaid ones or nothing in many cases. Unless you can show me evidence that students today would take the latter, it's true. It's also true they add value.

4. That's absolutely nothing to do with right/ left wing politics. I'd love if it was a fact of life that all internships were paid and it didn't cause numbers to fall. It just ins't the case and is idealistic thinking in today's economy.  That doesn't mean I support it, I'm stating facts, you have very clearly confused the two. 

5. You've then started to ramble on as if I'm not bothered with the many issues in our society like homelessness and food banks. feel free to point out even a hint of that being my view. 

This is IOBS all over. Incoherent nonsense from start to finish.

In a discussion about internships he is wittering on about foodbanks, zero hour contracts,  the homeless and cream carpets. :lol:

You make a good point about what an internship replaces. Others seem to believe that an intern replaces a paid member of staff and keeps a potential employee out of a job but the reality is that an intern replaces nobody in most non-exploitative cases. Without the intern, there would be nobody employed in that role.

The other error others on the thread like Kemp are making is they think that proving one instance of abuse somehow means all internships are thus proven to be abusive. That is no more valid a proposition than showing that one or two instances where an internship works well is proof that all internships are a good thing and that no abuse exists.

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19 hours ago, bazil85 said:

1. What's my upbringing got to do with anything? 

2. I actually said exploitation happens regularly in the workplace quoting a few examples, if you read back you'll see that. No need to apologise.

3. I wasn't the one that said they don't have to do it, although he is right in what he says, we aren't talking about forced labour here which is an issue in this country to an extent when we consider zero hour contracts, minimum wages, contract working, people having to have two jobs to feed their families, all stuff I think is terrible.

4. I said often companies can't afford the luxury of internships so it's either unpaid ones or nothing in many cases. Unless you can show me evidence that students today would take the latter, it's true. It's also true they add value.

4. That's absolutely nothing to do with right/ left wing politics. I'd love if it was a fact of life that all internships were paid and it didn't cause numbers to fall. It just ins't the case and is idealistic thinking in today's economy.  That doesn't mean I support it, I'm stating facts, you have very clearly confused the two. 

5. You've then started to ramble on as if I'm not bothered with the many issues in our society like homelessness and food banks. feel free to point out even a hint of that being my view. 

Appoliges was actually supposed to quote Oaksoft. 

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