For Once I agree with Mike Ashley

[oaksoft]

5 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

The market sorts out the rents issue over time.

No it doesn't. Why would you think that?

There are plenty of shops which have been sitting vacant in town centres in my area for more than a decade. A quick enquiry shows the owners still want £20k to £80k p.a. which means they are only open to shops hoping to turnover £100k to £200k p.a. to make that work for them.

If market forces were truly at play they would be offering it for susbtantially less than those numbers.

Commercial property owners (especially large indoor centres) are answerable only to shareholders and as long as they turn in good financial figures each year it doesn't matter how many shops lie dormant.

Edited December 5, 2018 by oaksoft

[St.Ricky]

Just now, oaksoft said:

No it doesn't. Why would you think that?

There are plenty of shops which have been sitting vacant in town centres in my area for more than a decade. A quick enquiry shows the owners still want £20k to £80k p.a. which means they are only open to shops hoping to turnover £100k to £200k p.a.

If market forces were truly at play they would be offering it for susbtantially less than those numbers.

Commercial property owners (especially large indoor centres) are answerable only to shareholders and as long as they turn in good financial figures each year it doesn't matter how many shops lie dormant.

I have owned commercial properties in town and city streets.  There are different parameters for different investors.  

Some react more quickly whilst those which are capital rich tend to work on longer time frames.. are usually then slower to react. 

 

[oaksoft]

4 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

I have owned commercial properties in town and city streets.  There are different parameters for different investors.  

Some react more quickly whilst those which are capital rich tend to work on longer time frames.. are usually then slower to react. 

 

All you needed to say was "Oaky, you are quite correct in many cases".

[St.Ricky]

4 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

All you needed to say was "Oaky, you are quite correct in many cases".

And we agree. 

[The Original 59er]

23 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

And we agree. 

[faraway saint]

On 12/4/2018 at 6:31 PM, saintnextlifetime said:

I always aim to buy locally whenever l can , apart from seeing what you get and face to face interaction , you are helping the local economy . I can think of a couple of retailers in Paisley however who could do some basic stuff to sell more kit . If you go to America and walk into a shop , they really want to sell you something and their merchandising is top notch .

Classic this week, tried 3 times to buy an item from a local music shop, advertising opening hours from 10:00am.............

Unfortunately not at 10:15 (twice) and 10:45....................hello Argos. 

Same people will be whining about people not supporting local business's, feckem. 

[shull]

51 minutes ago, faraway saint said:

Classic this week, tried 3 times to buy an item from a local music shop, advertising opening hours from 10:00am.............

Unfortunately not at 10:15 (twice) and 10:45....................hello Argos. 

Same people will be whining about people not supporting local business's, feckem. 

Could have a  wee local shop in say Barrhead, owned and staffed by non locals.

And then there is Silverburn a few miles away where you might get at least 50 Barrhead people employed.

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, faraway saint said:

Classic this week, tried 3 times to buy an item from a local music shop, advertising opening hours from 10:00am.............

Unfortunately not at 10:15 (twice) and 10:45....................hello Argos. 

Same people will be whining about people not supporting local business's, feckem. 

Yep I dont understand this idea that local businesses are somehow better than large chains and that their is some sort of moral superiority in using them.

[stlucifer]

21 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Yep I dont understand this idea that local businesses are somehow better than large chains and that their is some sort of moral superiority in using them.

I don't know about anyone else but, living in a village, I tend to support my local shop for convenience. It's good to have a store right on your doorstep for those times when travelling distance is either unsafe or impossible. We need to keep them viable and, in any case, most are working collectively, buying their goods in bulk to keep prices down.

[faraway saint]

2 minutes ago, stlucifer said:

I don't know about anyone else but, living in a village, I tend to support my local shop for convenience. It's good to have a store right on your doorstep for those times when travelling distance is either unsafe or impossible. We need to keep them viable and, in any case, most are working collectively, buying their goods in bulk to keep prices down.

I agree but they have to provide a good service and not just sit back and depend on people putting up with shoddy service. 

Price has a part to play for me but a business that provides a good experience, and opens on fecking time, are important for repeat shoppers. 

[The Original 59er]

If the local Co-op has an item at £4 you can bet you would get the same item in a large Tesco at £3.50. However how much has it cost you to drive to your local large Tesco?

The local retailers have to offer a service and goods, and not just any old crap that they can get their hands on. You basically are faced with a very limited choice at the local store or a bit more of a choice at the Lidl or Aldi and a multi-choice at the Tesco. It's little wonder that the local stores (who can't carry too much stock) can't compete with the woman who wants to buy it all in one shopping visit!

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

If the local Co-op has an item at £4 you can bet you would get the same item in a large Tesco at £3.50. However how much has it cost you to drive to your local large Tesco?

The local retailers have to offer a service and goods, and not just any old crap that they can get their hands on. You basically are faced with a very limited choice at the local store or a bit more of a choice at the Lidl or Aldi and a multi-choice at the Tesco. It's little wonder that the local stores (who can't carry too much stock) can't compete with the woman who wants to buy it all in one shopping visit!

Woman? Is it 1950 again? 

[The Original 59er]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Woman? Is it 1950 again? 

As Neil Young sang:  'A Man Needs a Maid'

[oaksoft]

2 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

As Neil Young sang:  'A Man Needs a Maid'

He also said a lot of crap about Alabama and admitted he was wrong years later.

[The Original 59er]

13 hours ago, oaksoft said:

He also said a lot of crap about Alabama and admitted he was wrong years later.

There was and is still a lot wrong with some elements of Alabama, but it is an extremely poor State. I suspect his admission that he was wrong was due to the fact that a lot of people from the southern states were angry at the words in the song and as a result shunned him.

His comments at the time were probably in context and whilst it follows Joan Biaz's song "Birmingham Sunday", it was more direct and hit the white supremacist where it hurt.

[oaksoft]

6 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

There was and is still a lot wrong with some elements of Alabama, but it is an extremely poor State. I suspect his admission that he was wrong was due to the fact that a lot of people from the southern states were angry at the words in the song and as a result shunned him.

His comments at the time were probably in context and whilst it follows Joan Biaz's song "Birmingham Sunday", it was more direct and hit the white supremacist where it hurt.

I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt that he was genuine in his apology rather than to guess.

[saintnextlifetime]

8 hours ago, The Original 59er said:

There was and is still a lot wrong with some elements of Alabama, but it is an extremely poor State. I suspect his admission that he was wrong was due to the fact that a lot of people from the southern states were angry at the words in the song and as a result shunned him.

His comments at the time were probably in context and whilst it follows Joan Biaz's song "Birmingham Sunday", it was more direct and hit the white supremacist where it hurt.

Aye , l don't see how Neil Young had anything to apologise for or indeed , if he ever did. .

I always thought the Lynard Skynard number was in direct response to "Southern Man " rather than "Alabama ". .

[Guest TPAFKATS]

If the local Co-op has an item at £4 you can bet you would get the same item in a large Tesco at £3.50. However how much has it cost you to drive to your local large Tesco?
The local retailers have to offer a service and goods, and not just any old crap that they can get their hands on. You basically are faced with a very limited choice at the local store or a bit more of a choice at the Lidl or Aldi and a multi-choice at the Tesco. It's little wonder that the local stores (who can't carry too much stock) can't compete with the woman who wants to buy it all in one shopping visit!

Local Co-ops tend to have a virtual monopoly in small towns and rural areas and charge higher prices ripping of those who have no choice but to shop with them, particularly the poor.
They then have the cheek to imply they are more ethical and charitable than the rest.

[St.Ricky]

9 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

Local Co-ops tend to have a virtual monopoly in small towns and rural areas and charge higher prices ripping of those who have no choice but to shop with them, particularly the poor.
They then have the cheek to imply they are more ethical and charitable than the rest.

For over20 years the small town/large village I lived in supported 3 local general shops one of which was also the Post Office.  The COOP obtained permission to open.  The number of general shops has fallen by one.  The other has restricted hours. In effect,  competition has shrunk.  The post office has been taken over by a local charity which opened up a gift type shop despite the village having one already,  which serves the tourist market.  An unforseen  side effect is that the charity now has surplus funds (it shouldn't) but is now no longer able to provide evening meeting spaces for the community (it is a community trust)  as insurance requirements of the post office make this impossible.  I guess what I might be rambling on about is that reinventing the high street is difficult to get right whatever size and that changes will take years to balance out. 

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, TPAFKATS said:

Local Co-ops tend to have a virtual monopoly in small towns and rural areas and charge higher prices ripping of those who have no choice but to shop with them, particularly the poor.
They then have the cheek to imply they are more ethical and charitable than the rest.

The Co-op made pre-tax profits of just £26m on turnover of £5bn across 4000 stores in the UK.

That's an average of just £6500 profit per shop.

They are not ripping anyone off. Their prices reflect the cost of getting a product onto the shelf without the bulk buying power of the likes of Tesco.  That margin is about as tight as you can get.

Co-op also do a lot of community work.

For instance, compare that with Tesco who made £1.6bn profit on turnover of £51bn across 7000 stores for an average profit of £228k per store.

 

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, St.Ricky said:

For over20 years the small town/large village I lived in supported 3 local general shops one of which was also the Post Office.  The COOP obtained permission to open.  The number of general shops has fallen by one.  The other has restricted hours. In effect,  competition has shrunk.  The post office has been taken over by a local charity which opened up a gift type shop despite the village having one already,  which serves the tourist market.  An unforseen  side effect is that the charity now has surplus funds (it shouldn't) but is now no longer able to provide evening meeting spaces for the community (it is a community trust)  as insurance requirements of the post office make this impossible.  I guess what I might be rambling on about is that reinventing the high street is difficult to get right whatever size and that changes will take years to balance out. 

I have to admit Ricky, I am not following your point here at all.

[St.Ricky]

4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I have to admit Ricky, I am not following your point here at all.

I did admit to rambling. The point ,such as there was one,  was that even in small high streets their reinvention is difficult. 

In the case of Doune, the local Development Trust sold a Building to the COOP. The coming of the coop led to the end for one of the three general stores as they could not compete on price or on opening hours.  

Having sold their building the Trust then bought and closed one general store but retained the Post Office and introduced a gift shop which puts at risk the viability of a gift shop which had been a tenant in the building they sold. 

The Trust had provided a meeting room for organisations both during the day and in the evening. Now, due to insurance requirements, evening meetings are not allowed.

These were trumpeted as improvements to the main street. I guess my rather vague point is that even with the best of intentions,  improvements can lead to unintended consequences.

I'll shut up now.

[oaksoft]

4 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

I did admit to rambling. The point ,such as there was one,  was that even in small high streets their reinvention is difficult. 

In the case of Doune, the local Development Trust sold a Building to the COOP. The coming of the coop led to the end for one of the three general stores as they could not compete on price or on opening hours.  

Having sold their building the Trust then bought and closed one general store but retained the Post Office and introduced a gift shop which puts at risk the viability of a gift shop which had been a tenant in the building they sold. 

The Trust had provided a meeting room for organisations both during the day and in the evening. Now, due to insurance requirements, evening meetings are not allowed.

These were trumpeted as improvements to the main street. I guess my rather vague point is that even with the best of intentions,  improvements can lead to unintended consequences.

I'll shut up now.

Nope. I still don't follow what you are talking about and why this is relevant to a discussion about saving town centres from collapse.

Don't worry about it.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The Co-op made pre-tax profits of just £26m on turnover of £5bn across 4000 stores in the UK.
That's an average of just £6500 profit per shop.
They are not ripping anyone off. Their prices reflect the cost of getting a product onto the shelf without the bulk buying power of the likes of Tesco.  That margin is about as tight as you can get.
Co-op also do a lot of community work.
For instance, compare that with Tesco who made £1.6bn profit on turnover of £51bn across 7000 stores for an average profit of £228k per store.
 

More complex than that though. For example, you'd expect smaller profit per shop given the shops and footfall are much smaller than most tesco. Also profit funnelled into community work, reduces tax liability.

[oaksoft]

6 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

15 hours ago, oaksoft said:

The Co-op made pre-tax profits of just £26m on turnover of £5bn across 4000 stores in the UK.
That's an average of just £6500 profit per shop.
They are not ripping anyone off. Their prices reflect the cost of getting a product onto the shelf without the bulk buying power of the likes of Tesco.  That margin is about as tight as you can get.
Co-op also do a lot of community work.
For instance, compare that with Tesco who made £1.6bn profit on turnover of £51bn across 7000 stores for an average profit of £228k per store.
 

More complex than that though. For example, you'd expect smaller profit per shop given the shops and footfall are much smaller than most tesco. Also profit funnelled into community work, reduces tax liability.

That's a fair point about size. The better comparison is to compare pre-tax profit to turnover ratios.

You are wrong to talk about people being ripped off and those numbers show why you are wrong.

That last sentence you wrote? You are surely not criticising a company for putting money into the local community?

Edited December 13, 2018 by oaksoft