St Mirren v Aberdeen 15/12/18

[Sonny]

13 hours ago, santaponsasaint said:

14 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Stubbs was sacked to soothe the feelings of a few individuals.
Go back to the V9 signings and you'll see I was just about in a minority of one as to the likelihood of them being successful and the especially the folly of paying a fee for Heaton - at the time plenty of posters were drooling about  Stubbsy's "contacts" it's all there in the threads - feel free to have a look!
You can continue to ignore the real reason for Stubbsy's sacking but you're only kidding yourself on.

I was the the one who asked Stubbs if he was using our club as some sort of V9 experiment at the Q&A at the start of the season. Right away he took it as a personal insult. After that he treated every question the same way. The guy had no social skills or communication skills. He was sacked at the right time. Mistakes were made and we all as a club should suck it up and hope OK gets some decent players in in January and turns it around. Coys.

Perfectly valid question to ask. He adopted a very controversial signing policy ie players who had no knowledge or experience of Scottish football; most of whom had never played a first team game for their Club and some who were part-time in semi amateur Leagues. What made him think they could do ok in the Scottish Premiership? The media and Jimbo did not ask this question. And as the decision maker he should have answered the question without going in the huff.

And Stubbs wasn't sacked to soothe the feeling of players although the players were not supporting him but by then the decision had been made.

[Lord Pityme]

Ahh i see Oran (one win out of fourteen) is still being hailed as an outstanding success story by some posters. It is obvious to any reasoned view that we are as poor under Oran, if not poorer given the amount of games he has been in charge for?

look at the match stats, most games we struggle to get four shots on target, quite a few we've had two! And this with his much heralded signings of Jackson & Hammil. Difficult to see us getting more than a draw in the last three before the break when Our top scorer departs, and if rumours mean anything, we see an influx of the standard of player the irish league has to offer.

Stubbs signed poorly, left it late to bring in some experience, and upset the very players who are still playing poorly. Oran hasn't improved us, the results and performances back that up. But he is nicer, will that help him from here on in?

if we remain bottom two till season end, why would that mean its worth keeping Oran? If relegated he will by dint of that fact have lesser quality to work with.

personally if he hasnt got us out of the bottom two by end of February, then the board should pull the rip cord and take a gamble a new manager might just keep us up. I feel we are drowning in a sea of well intentioned, but totally confusing clash of football experts in the background. You can see the players seem not to know exactly whose instructions they are following at any given moment in a game.

there can only be one manager who sinks, or swims on his decisions. Everyone else is their purely in support, not to impose their plan!

[Cornwall_Saint]

30 minutes ago, cockles1987 said:

1 hour ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

In fairness I think Oran is mainly using the youth players in the reserve games anyway. I think the only non-youth to play Morton was Jordan Kirkpatrick.
I don’t disagree with your post though, there are many reasons that were valid in getting rid of Stubbs. And it says a lot when a transfer fee of that size is spunked on a player who doesn’t even make the bench.

I've wonder if managers talk to each other prior to a reserve game to say if it's youth or the amount of more experienced players they'll be playing.

That’s a good question.

I know when we pumped Dundee United 5-0 on the opening day we had a lot of the squad players in there (Cooke and King played well IIRC) but Dundee Utd only had youth players on.

If I’m right the reserve league replaced the Development League, so as a result the 18/19 year olds don’t have a league for themselves any more. So what we have now is basically the same thing but with relaxed rules so you can play as many squad players as you want. Think we could do with both as I don’t see it helping the youths much in developing if they are still just playing other youths.

[Bud the Baker]

3 hours ago, Sonny said:

Perfectly valid question to ask. He adopted a very controversial signing policy ie players who had no knowledge or experience of Scottish football; most of whom had never played a first team game for their Club and some who were part-time in semi amateur Leagues. What made him think they could do ok in the Scottish Premiership? The media and Jimbo did not ask this question. And as the decision maker he should have answered the question without going in the huff.

And Stubbs wasn't sacked to soothe the feeling of players although the players were not supporting him but by then the decision had been made.

Dancing on the head of a pin.

Edited December 19, 2018 by Bud the Baker

[stlucifer]

2 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

That’s a good question.

I know when we pumped Dundee United 5-0 on the opening day we had a lot of the squad players in there (Cooke and King played well IIRC) but Dundee Utd only had youth players on.

If I’m right the reserve league replaced the Development League, so as a result the 18/19 year olds don’t have a league for themselves any more. So what we have now is basically the same thing but with relaxed rules so you can play as many squad players as you want. Think we could do with both as I don’t see it helping the youths much in developing if they are still just playing other youths.

I think that was the whole point of changing it. It didn't make sense to have a game played out with the main competitions and limited in giving game time to players not involved with the first team or coming back from injury.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Ahh i see Oran (one win out of fourteen) is still being hailed as an outstanding success story by some posters. It is obvious to any reasoned view that we are as poor under Oran, if not poorer given the amount of games he has been in charge for?
look at the match stats, most games we struggle to get four shots on target, quite a few we've had two! And this with his much heralded signings of Jackson & Hammil. Difficult to see us getting more than a draw in the last three before the break when Our top scorer departs, and if rumours mean anything, we see an influx of the standard of player the irish league has to offer.
Stubbs signed poorly, left it late to bring in some experience, and upset the very players who are still playing poorly. Oran hasn't improved us, the results and performances back that up. But he is nicer, will that help him from here on in?
if we remain bottom two till season end, why would that mean its worth keeping Oran? If relegated he will by dint of that fact have lesser quality to work with.
personally if he hasnt got us out of the bottom two by end of February, then the board should pull the rip cord and take a gamble a new manager might just keep us up. I feel we are drowning in a sea of well intentioned, but totally confusing clash of football experts in the background. You can see the players seem not to know exactly whose instructions they are following at any given moment in a game.
there can only be one manager who sinks, or swims on his decisions. Everyone else is their purely in support, not to impose their plan!

You lost me when you claimed to have a reasoned view...

[Lord Pityme]

You lost me when you claimed to have a reasoned view...

What's your view then, should he stay in situ if we are still bottom two at end of February.

[St.Ricky]

How does this relate to the game just played?  One in which our performance levels were decent. 

[Guest TPAFKATS]

What's your view then, should he stay in situ if we are still bottom two at end of February.

Yes, unless there's been some kind of unforeseen event or issue.
He should get a transfer window, the chance to build his squad. End of Feb would be 6 or less games later.

[Sweeper07]

4 hours ago, Lord Pityme said:

Ahh i see Oran (one win out of fourteen) is still being hailed as an outstanding success story by some posters. It is obvious to any reasoned view that we are as poor under Oran, if not poorer given the amount of games he has been in charge for?

look at the match stats, most games we struggle to get four shots on target, quite a few we've had two! And this with his much heralded signings of Jackson & Hammil. Difficult to see us getting more than a draw in the last three before the break when Our top scorer departs, and if rumours mean anything, we see an influx of the standard of player the irish league has to offer.

Stubbs signed poorly, left it late to bring in some experience, and upset the very players who are still playing poorly. Oran hasn't improved us, the results and performances back that up. But he is nicer, will that help him from here on in?

if we remain bottom two till season end, why would that mean its worth keeping Oran? If relegated he will by dint of that fact have lesser quality to work with.

personally if he hasnt got us out of the bottom two by end of February, then the board should pull the rip cord and take a gamble a new manager might just keep us up. I feel we are drowning in a sea of well intentioned, but totally confusing clash of football experts in the background. You can see the players seem not to know exactly whose instructions they are following at any given moment in a game.

there can only be one manager who sinks, or swims on his decisions. Everyone else is their purely in support, not to impose their plan!

So you expect Oran to magically conjure up loads of wins from a squad that is not fit for purpose? (STUBBS gift to us during his thankfully short tenure) (McIntyre is in the same boat at the dungers)

The results are a direct effect of this. The performances however, have more often been much better under Oran. He has tried out most of the squad in various positions in order that he can make a decision as to who is worth keeping. And even that is not straight forward in football management - some refuse to go unless they get a pay off, others stay through "being injured" etc...

Getting 3 better 1st team players in without a transfer window has clearly helped, but another dozen or so need to go. (And Lyness, a 4th player in during OK's reign looked decent on Saturday too). He inherited a midfield that goes back the way by default, loses its markers so often and hardly creates any chances. He has not managed to change that YET - He will come January and over the Summer (It is not easy getting the right kind of players - but he will make positive improvements, but it may take a few steps)

To have a go at our much heralded Hammill or Jackson is crazy stuff - Hammill has scored significant goals and assists - where would we be without Him - definitely bottom of the league by points and goal difference too) Jackson is hardly missing loads of chances or ever gives less than 100%.  He is not getting much service or support.  If we manage to sign the right guys and he gets decent service, he will prove to be a shrewd signing indeed.

Hammill might go - but in our favour is the fact that he is enjoying being with us (feeling like a big fish in our not so huge pond), we want him to stay, and another move might be a wrong one for him. (Every mature footballer knows that this is a real possibility) Of course players can always be tempted away - but rather than worrying about who we might lose, we should be focussed on who we might prise away from other teams...

You speculate a lot... you have no idea if we are going to sign loads of Irish players. Don't assume it makes an ASS out of U but not ME

 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Sweeper07
typo shrewd

[Lord Pityme]

Yes, unless there's been some kind of unforeseen event or issue.
He should get a transfer window, the chance to build his squad. End of Feb would be 6 or less games later.

So he can relegate is with 34 league games at his disposal and still keep his job?
I suspect when/if pish comes to shite, and we are going down, that will not be the opinion of the majority.

[Lord Pityme]

So you expect Oran to magically conjure up loads of wins from a squad that is not fit for purpose? (STUBBS gift to us during his thankfully short tenure) (McIntyre is in the same boat at the dungers)
The results are a direct effect of this. The performances however, have more often been much better under Oran. He has tried out most of the squad in various positions in order that he can make a decision as to who is worth keeping. And even that is not straight forward in football management - some refuse to go unless they get a pay off, others stay through "being injured" etc...
Getting 3 better 1st team players in without a transfer window has clearly helped, but another dozen or so need to go. (And Lyness, a 4th player in during OK's reign looked decent on Saturday too). He inherited a midfield that goes back the way by default, loses its markers so often and hardly creates any chances. He has not managed to change that YET - He will come January and over the Summer (It is not easy getting the right kind of players - but he will make positive improvements, but it may take a few steps)
To have a go at our much heralded Hammill or Jackson is crazy stuff - Hammill has scored significant goals and assists - where would we be without Him - definitely bottom of the league by points and goal difference too) Jackson is hardly missing loads of chances or ever gives less than 100%.  He is not getting much service or support.  If we manage to sign the right guys and he gets decent service, he will prove to be a shrewd signing indeed.

Hammill might go - but in our favour is the fact that he is enjoying being with us (feeling like a big fish in our not so huge pond), we want him to stay, and another move might be a wrong one for him. (Every mature footballer knows that this is a real possibility) Of course players can always be tempted away - but rather than worrying about who we might lose, we should be focussed on who we might prise away from other teams...

You speculate a lot... you have no idea if we are going to sign loads of Irish players. Don't assume it makes an ASS out of U but not ME
 

I assume nothing, but point out rumours. If Oran is still here at season end he will have had 34 out of 38 league games. Are you suggesting even that is not enough for a good manager to avoid relegation?
We are no better off than when we had Stubbs. When that changes I will thank him for his endeavours.
Remember when Oran got the job the board said he Was the best man for it!
They certainty say he could get us relegated and keep his job.

[Sweeper07]

2 minutes ago, Lord Pityme said:

I assume nothing, but point out rumours. If Oran is still here at season end he will have had 34 out of 38 league games. Are you suggesting even that is not enough for a good manager to avoid relegation?
We are no better off than when we had Stubbs. When that changes I will thank him for his endeavours.
Remember when Oran got the job the board said he Was the best man for it!
They certainty say he could get us relegated and keep his job.

Are there any credible rumours that Hammill will be away or that OK is only going to sign lots of Irish players? No, just the usual media and forum snippets trying to make a story...

So Oran has had 14 league games to date with his hands tied behind his back having inherited an inadequate Stubb's squad to work with. (except for pulling 3 or 4 rabbits out of the hat - or we would be even worse off) And as I said those 3 or 4 players that he brought in have led to better performances. Given that the next 3 games have the same restrictions - by the end of the season he will have had 17 games with a number of His signings in place. We don't even know who will be available yet and we all know that the January window is much more difficult than the summer one.  We don't even know what his budget restrictions will be either and again, that is hampered by our former manager's 2 and 3 year deals for squad players who are not up to the task. 

We are a whole lot better off without Stubbs (as were Rotherham) - there is no way we would have been anything other than last with him holding the reigns and imagine if he got to sign more diddies in the January window - where would that leave us for seasons ahead, as we struggled to recover?

The Board might say all kinds of things. They made a mistake signing Stubbs and co, but then they acted fairly swiftly. They will want OK to make progress for many good reasons. They will back him to some extent. Until we know which league we will be in for next season, various options will still be on the table and the implications of these will be carefully considered.

I am cautiously optimistic.  Dundee are at least as bad as us with a much heavier budget commitment already. Hamilton are not great, just tough, but there for the taking if we progress and step up to the plate. (I think they don't have much money to play with either) Motherwell are not miles better than us, by a lot better than there points tally shows I suspect - the rest are beyond our reach, except for an exceptional victory or a few draws here and there - but it is the same for our two rivals. Our task is to beat Hamilton and Dundee twice and pick up a handful of other bonus points. Although these crucial games are only worth 3 points - it is 3 points plus double goal difference - this is our No. 1 SMART goal. 12 points from our nearest 2 teams. We do that and we will not be relegated...

[Guest TPAFKATS]

So he can relegate is with 34 league games at his disposal and still keep his job?I suspect when/if pish comes to shite, and we are going down, that will not be the opinion of the majority.

Ffs, I clearly never said that in my post. I've quoted it again, just to be clear. I'm genuinely puzzled as to how you came to your conclusion from this.

Yes, unless there's been some kind of unforeseen event or issue.He should get a transfer window, the chance to build his squad. End of Feb would be 6 or less games later.

 

 

 

[Lord Pityme]

37 minutes ago, Sweeper07 said:

Are there any credible rumours that Hammill will be away or that OK is only going to sign lots of Irish players? No, just the usual media and forum snippets trying to make a story...

So Oran has had 14 league games to date with his hands tied behind his back having inherited an inadequate Stubb's squad to work with. (except for pulling 3 or 4 rabbits out of the hat - or we would be even worse off) And as I said those 3 or 4 players that he brought in have led to better performances. Given that the next 3 games have the same restrictions - by the end of the season he will have had 17 games with a number of His signings in place. We don't even know who will be available yet and we all know that the January window is much more difficult than the summer one.  We don't even know what his budget restrictions will be either and again, that is hampered by our former manager's 2 and 3 year deals for squad players who are not up to the task. 

We are a whole lot better off without Stubbs (as were Rotherham) - there is no way we would have been anything other than last with him holding the reigns and imagine if he got to sign more diddies in the January window - where would that leave us for seasons ahead, as we struggled to recover?

The Board might say all kinds of things. They made a mistake signing Stubbs and co, but then they acted fairly swiftly. They will want OK to make progress for many good reasons. They will back him to some extent. Until we know which league we will be in for next season, various options will still be on the table and the implications of these will be carefully considered.

I am cautiously optimistic.  Dundee are at least as bad as us with a much heavier budget commitment already. Hamilton are not great, just tough, but there for the taking if we progress and step up to the plate. (I think they don't have much money to play with either) Motherwell are not miles better than us, by a lot better than there points tally shows I suspect - the rest are beyond our reach, except for an exceptional victory or a few draws here and there - but it is the same for our two rivals. Our task is to beat Hamilton and Dundee twice and pick up a handful of other bonus points. Although these crucial games are only worth 3 points - it is 3 points plus double goal difference - this is our No. 1 SMART goal. 12 points from our nearest 2 teams. We do that and we will not be relegated...

There is no such thing as a credible rumour ffs, there are just rumours. Re: your 12 points from nearest two teams theory, we would need something like a 300% improvement to achieve that, and as reported, Dundee are after as many quality players as us, with a better budget, and Hamilton are much more settled and proven capable of riding out these situations.

this endless talk of "Stubbs players being shite" cant be improving the morale of Jones, Hodson, Edwards, Willock, Rogers, Lyness etc.. who until we know different, we are relying on to keep us up. You might want to reflect on that!

[Sonny]

8 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

Dancing on the head of a pin.

Naw. You are just guessing. But guessing wrongly.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

It's called ignorance. He'll ignore you for showing him for what he is. [emoji106]

You may have a point there [emoji848]

[Cornwall_Saint]

6 hours ago, Sweeper07 said:

Are there any credible rumours that Hammill will be away

The biggest issue here is that his contract hasn’t been extended yet. So as it stands, yes he will be away in January. I hope that’s not the case though.

[Bud the Baker]

21 minutes ago, Sonny said:

Naw. You are just guessing. But guessing wrongly.

You don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind was blowing back in August.

You've already admitted certain players weren't trying -  any other conclusion seems a bit far-fetched.

[Sonny]

3 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

You don't need a weatherman to tell which way the wind was blowing back in August.

You've already admitted certain players weren't trying -  any other conclusion seems a bit far-fetched.

Again you are guessing.  And I have not stated certain players weren't trying. You are just guessing. Again. Stubbs was not sacked due to a player revolt.

[Bud the Baker]

5 minutes ago, Sonny said:

Again you are guessing.  And I have not stated certain players weren't trying. You are just guessing. Again. Stubbs was not sacked due to a player revolt.

Trying/Supporting - you're just quibbling now.

[Sonny]

Trying/Supporting - you're just quibbling now.

There is a huge difference. I did not like my last boss but it never stopped me doing my work.

 

You are jumping to conclusions with no knowledge of the facts putting all the blame on a few players. I repeat - player discontent was not the reason he was sacked.

[Jack the lad]

14 hours ago, Sweeper07 said:

Are there any credible rumours that Hammill will be away or that OK is only going to sign lots of Irish players? No, just the usual media and forum snippets trying to make a story...

Yes is the answer to that, with a few others as well. Motherwell squad could be interesting!

[Lord Pityme]

  
 

You are suggesting that end of February is too soon, and given the season ends by end of April/first week May then that would imply you believe he should be here till then, even if in 34 games he can't get us to at least eleventh and win play off.
Or do you believe if he relegated us he should go?

[Isle Of Bute Saint]

1 minute ago, Lord Pityme said:

You are suggesting that end of February is too soon, and given the season ends by end of April/first week May then that would imply you believe he should be here till then, even if in 34 games he can't get us to at least eleventh and win play off.
Or do you believe if he relegated us he should go?

He will and should be the manager in the championship if we go down. Most agree with it also.