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Isle Of Bute Saint

Homelessness Deaths

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18 hours ago, oaksoft said:

You have to be very careful with statistics because you can misrepresent them to suit whatever agenda you want. There's no substitute for looking at them yourself and trying to make your own mind up as I did this morning

And, after spattering the whole thread (read “forum”) with random, agenda-driven, self serving statistical bollox...   I’d say that’s a cunning deployment of more bullshit...

.... or more festively....

Bah, humbug!

 

 

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20 hours ago, oaksoft said:

I'm old enough to remember that rent prices have been soaring for decades and more than one government has been involved.

When I started out I was paying about 40% of my income on rent. The minimum wage is about £7.83 per hour. For a full time job that would be about £1300 per month so in most regions of the UK a single person is going to be paying around the same sort of percentage. In that respect, nothing has changed in 30 years since I started out. My son is in a minimum wage job and is paying about 30% so he has it better than I did at his age. He has his own flat. I was flat sharing. Obviously there will be hot spots around major cities and the South West but talk of soaring rents compared to wages is a myth IMO. I can search in most areas and find something around the 40% mark. It might not be a flat on my own but when you are young you need to be prepared to muck through. All of us pretty much had to do that.

If you don't claim UC then clearly working is paying off for you so I really don't know why you brought up your own situation when talking about "work pays" being bullshit. I appreciate you have to work two jobs but many of us have had to do that. My wife told me she used to have 3 jobs at one point. No idea how she managed to keep that up for 2 years mind you. The bit about your overtime is exactly my point. When you pay people too much in benefits you tie them into dependency and they understandably choose the benefits because it's not working the extra overtime. This is a terrible thing IMO and it's exactly what the Tories are trying to stop. You should ALWAYS be better off with the overtime.

As for your last paragraph, you need to understand that statistics will always fluctuate because populations fluctuate. Our population has increased over the last 30 years but absolute homeless numbers are roughly the same. You have to be very careful with statistics because you can misrepresent them to suit whatever agenda you want. There's no substitute for looking at them yourself and trying to make your own mind up as I did this morning. You might make mistakes in your interpretation but that's OK. The alternative is to be fed bullshit by those with agendas.

That full time figure you have there is pre-tax, based on around 41.5 hours a week. In my main job, people on my level can only get a maximum 38 hour contract, and both the company and the union consider 30+ hours as full time colleagues (not that I agree with that myself). I understand you say that rent remain around the 40% mark (my main job pay is probably a tad over that, but below 50%), but when the cost of everything else has skyrocketed, it’s no wonder people are struggling.

Working pays for me only because I work every single day across two jobs. I know I'm not the first or last person to do this. If I was in my main job only, overtime would be pointless. The problem with benefits isn’t that people are paid too much (benefits are being slashed on a regular basis). There needs to be a system in place where you actually notice you are benefitting from working overtime, where the extra pay you make is not totally removed from the benefit. The Tories aren’t trying to stop anything. They have two things in mind - Unemployment % and Welfare Budget. They want both slashed. That would be fine, except the people affected are no better off, sometimes even worse off. Job centres are a joke, years ago before I gained employment, they expected me to take a 12 hour contract out of town, where I would have been required to take the bus for a 3 or 4 hour shift. By the time you count the bus fare in, plus the loss in benefits, you’ll be much worse off financially. But to them, if I took that, it’s one person off the unemployment list, and a cut in the welfare payout. Doesn’t matter if I am worse off. It’s success to them. And these days, if you refuse these offers you get sanctioned. f**king brilliant.

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Politics aside. I'm sure we all agree that homelessness is a dreadful thing. Our various arguments are about why people are homeless and what can be done about it. However, I'd be fairly sure that none of us on the forum are in that position and that each of us live in varying degrees of comfort. Spare a thought for those less fortunate,  whatever the cause.

Edited by St.Ricky

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Even James Brokenshire, Housing Secretary of the Government we voted for admits "changes to policy"on homelessness are needed...............

Quote

Minister admits Tory policies may be a cause of rising homelessness

Housing secretary appears to contradict recent claim that increase is due to other factors

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/24/housing-secretary-james-brokenshire-admits-tory-policies-blame-homelessness-rise

Edited by Bud the Baker

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No doubt the Conservatives are heartless b'stards but we (the UK electorate) voted them in.
I think you may mean 'the English electorate' voted them in. A cheapshot, yes, but truth nonetheless.

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5 minutes ago, Qarsaan said:
On 12/21/2018 at 2:12 PM, Bud the Baker said:
No doubt the Conservatives are heartless b'stards but we (the UK electorate) voted them in.

I think you may mean 'the English electorate' voted them in. A cheapshot, yes, but truth nonetheless.

Naw, it’s definitely the Uk electorate.

London didn’t vote for them, either.

i believe parts of the UK other than England also have Tory MPs voted in by their constituents.

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6 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

It was good to see an old collegue and erstwhile friend of mine being awarded an MBE for services to Homeless People in Glasgow. 

Puts the issue front and centre. 

Erstwhile? Is he one of your 30,000 or was he one of those routinely culled?

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5 hours ago, oaksoft said:

Erstwhile? Is he one of your 30,000 or was he one of those routinely culled?

We worked together for 26 years Oaks. Were also in Business Together for 5.

Great to see someone in that field getting recognition.

As I said - Puts the issue of homelessness (however caused) front and centre.

Edited by St.Ricky

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6 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

We worked together for 26 years Oaks. Were also in Business Together for 5.

Great to see someone in that field getting recognition.

As I said - Puts the issue of homelessness (however caused) front and centre.

For about 10 seconds before everyone forgets all about it again.

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Just now, oaksoft said:

For about 10 seconds before everyone forgets all about it again.

That may be so....That may well be the average attention span these days. Better that than nothing.

More importantly it may help influence decision makers and funders. 

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13 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

That may be so....That may well be the average attention span these days. Better that than nothing.

More importantly it may help influence decision makers and funders. 

If you genuinely believe either or both of these two things then fair enough. All about opinions.

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I think it's too simplistic to just say - "homelessness = bad, it must be eradicated, it's 2019 we should all be living comfortably"

Of course, it is bad. But is it an easy problem to fix?

Firstly, the homeless person needs to want to be helped. Sadly, some are just beyond helping and that is literally their life.

For some, it's drugs/alcohol related.

& for others, they've just made some bad choices and ended up on the streets. 

There is already help out there if they want it, seen a video from Bristol where Rob Del Naja from the band Massive Attack, had helped fund temporary homes for people out of shipping containers. (a great idea, btw)

I think a lot of the stuff you see posted on social media is actually counter productive. I've seen people film themselves doing "good deeds" like handing out money or food, or putting up big posts/rants about how bad it is that so many people live on the streets.

I guess some call it "virtue signalling", others would say it's drawing attention to important issues. I'd say the answer is somewhere in the middle, it is an important issue, but one that's not easy to solve. 

If someone really feels strongly about it, they should be more like Mr Del Naja and do something productive/innovative about it, rather than just saying "homelessness = bad"

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23 minutes ago, Doakes said:

I think it's too simplistic to just say - "homelessness = bad, it must be eradicated, it's 2019 we should all be living comfortably"

Of course, it is bad. But is it an easy problem to fix?

Firstly, the homeless person needs to want to be helped. Sadly, some are just beyond helping and that is literally their life.

For some, it's drugs/alcohol related.

& for others, they've just made some bad choices and ended up on the streets. 

There is already help out there if they want it, seen a video from Bristol where Rob Del Naja from the band Massive Attack, had helped fund temporary homes for people out of shipping containers. (a great idea, btw)

I think a lot of the stuff you see posted on social media is actually counter productive. I've seen people film themselves doing "good deeds" like handing out money or food, or putting up big posts/rants about how bad it is that so many people live on the streets.

I guess some call it "virtue signalling", others would say it's drawing attention to important issues. I'd say the answer is somewhere in the middle, it is an important issue, but one that's not easy to solve. 

If someone really feels strongly about it, they should be more like Mr Del Naja and do something productive/innovative about it, rather than just saying "homelessness = bad"

A lot of truth in what you write. Not a one dimensional issue.

There are, as you say, places where Containers have been used other approaches have been taken to create accommodation ar low cost . Agree that providing Accommodation whilst vital in itself is only part of the overall approach needed.

Space here doesn't allow for a full discussion on the many different elements.  As you say, sadly some people might not be able to or wish to make changes in their habits or behaviours due to addiction,  mental health or simply life choices.

in a caring society we shouldn't give up just because it's difficult.  Nor do I see much merit in factional infighting on the best way to publicise the issue or to approach it.

If we are capable of landing on the moon then surely we should be capable of reducing, if not eradicating, homelessness. We have the wit, we have the resources. It's a question of do we have the will.

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38 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

A lot of truth in what you write. Not a one dimensional issue.

There are, as you say, places where Containers have been used other approaches have been taken to create accommodation ar low cost . Agree that providing Accommodation whilst vital in itself is only part of the overall approach needed.

Space here doesn't allow for a full discussion on the many different elements.  As you say, sadly some people might not be able to or wish to make changes in their habits or behaviours due to addiction,  mental health or simply life choices.

in a caring society we shouldn't give up just because it's difficult.  Nor do I see much merit in factional infighting on the best way to publicise the issue or to approach it.

If we are capable of landing on the moon then surely we should be capable of reducing, if not eradicating, homelessness. We have the wit, we have the resources. It's a question of do we have the will.

2 questions.

Firstly, what do you mean by "Space here doesn't allow for a full discussion on the many different elements.  "?

Secondly, who are you talking about when you say we in your last sentence?

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4 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

2 questions.

Firstly, what do you mean by "Space here doesn't allow for a full discussion on the many different elements.  "?

Secondly, who are you talking about when you say we in your last sentence?

Answers...... The forum isn't a great place for lengthy discussions.  We is what Margaret Thatcher said didn't exist.  society.  

Over and out on this topic for me. 

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The Forum is a great place for lengthy discussion on any subject. 

Why wouldn't it be ? 

Admission Prices among other things has been debated for well over a decade on this platform. 

:)

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4 minutes ago, shull said:

The Forum is a great place for lengthy discussion on any subject. 

Why wouldn't it be ? 

Admission Prices among other things has been debated for well over a decade on this platform. 

:)

Happy to respect your opinion just as you will be to respect mine. 

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13 minutes ago, St.Ricky said:

Answers...... The forum isn't a great place for lengthy discussions.  We is what Margaret Thatcher said didn't exist.  society.  

Over and out on this topic for me. 

Forums are specifically designed to facilitate lengthy discussions. What a strange thing to say.

Society needs to do something about it? All of society? Specific people?

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1 minute ago, oaksoft said:

Forums are specifically designed to facilitate lengthy discussions. What a strange thing to say.

Society needs to do something about it? All of society? Specific people?

Same reply as for Shull. That's my opinion.  Also said before that I am out of this discussion. 

 

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1 minute ago, St.Ricky said:

Same reply as for Shull. That's my opinion.  Also said before that I am out of this discussion. 

 

Having had 3 kids, I recognise a teenage strop when I see one. :P

Not entirely sure why but not to worry.

Edited by oaksoft

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5 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

A lot of truth in what you write. Not a one dimensional issue.

There are, as you say, places where Containers have been used other approaches have been taken to create accommodation ar low cost . Agree that providing Accommodation whilst vital in itself is only part of the overall approach needed.

Space here doesn't allow for a full discussion on the many different elements.  As you say, sadly some people might not be able to or wish to make changes in their habits or behaviours due to addiction,  mental health or simply life choices.

in a caring society we shouldn't give up just because it's difficult.  Nor do I see much merit in factional infighting on the best way to publicise the issue or to approach it.

If we are capable of landing on the moon then surely we should be capable of reducing, if not eradicating, homelessness. We have the wit, we have the resources. It's a question of do we have the will.

I'm morally split on budget/low cost accommodation.

Have you seen the film, "Ready Player One"? If not, it's worth a watch - Steven Spielburg science fiction effort where the characters are living in some kind of bleak inner city world where everyone lives in shipping containers and their only way of escaping their bleak surroundings is via virtual reality.

I do worry that this is where we're headed... If you look at the cost of living in London. You could have a fairly good job, and still find it tempting to live in a shipping container! Not sure what society needs to do to fix it, but the fact that people can work a 60 hour week and still not afford decent living conditions is a huge problem, imo.

 

Edited by Doakes

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