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St.Ricky

Referee Statistics Andrew Dallas and others 2019

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VAR is the answer to most of this post. It will be introduced to the English Premiership next season, but I think you can wait an eternity for it ever to be introduced in Scotland!

I'm not saying that all the decisions were right, or wrong, but at least there would have been a review and if that had occurred on each occasion then it would have been very interesting to see how many would have been awarded.

Football in Scotland is a backwater. The English Championship will have goalmouth monitoring and VAR long, long before Scotland will, and as a result we will continue to see performances such as Dallas's on Saturday! :hammer

 

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Spoiler

 

A guy at work yesterday (a currant bun obvs) advised me that it had been irrefutably proven (i.e. written in The Scotsman...spit), that the handball against Baird was indeed a penalty as he continued to handle the ball when he landed in the box. Can anyone confirm if this is actually true i.e. not that it was written in the Scotsman (spit), but that the rule is actually thus. 

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52 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:
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A guy at work yesterday (a currant bun obvs) advised me that it had been irrefutably proven (i.e. written in The Scotsman...spit), that the handball against Baird was indeed a penalty as he continued to handle the ball when he landed in the box. Can anyone confirm if this is actually true i.e. not that it was written in the Scotsman (spit), but that the rule is actually thus. 

Ask him what would happen if a player caught the ball in his opponent's area and ran the length of the pitch before dropping it in his own box...….does he think it would be a penalty?? 

If it's Dermot Gallagher's interpretation he is quoting Gallagher actually claims that Tansey was on the line when he made contact with the ball which we've all seen he wasn't. Steve Conroy, quoted in the same paper, says it wasn't a penalty.

He did well to use the word irrefutable in a sentence though.

Gallagher did claim that the fourth should have been a penalty as the "tackle" began outside the box but continued in to the box.

The match reporter called the match a "Dallas error-fest"

 

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12 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

Ask him what would happen if a player caught the ball in his opponent's area and ran the length of the pitch before dropping it in his own box...….does he think it would be a penalty?? 

 

The action of running the length of the pitch would be a separate to the action to the initial catching of the ball.

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1 hour ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:
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A guy at work yesterday (a currant bun obvs) advised me that it had been irrefutably proven (i.e. written in The Scotsman...spit), that the handball against Baird was indeed a penalty as he continued to handle the ball when he landed in the box. Can anyone confirm if this is actually true i.e. not that it was written in the Scotsman (spit), but that the rule is actually thus. 

The rule with regards to fouls is that if a foul starts outside the box and then continues into the box then a penalty should be given.

This, however, is in relation to one player fouling another. I haven't been able to find any clarification if its the same principle for handball.

IMO, it probably is and therefore it probably was a penalty.

But, also IMO, he puts his hands up to protect his face. The ball would have struck his head if he hadn't put his hands up. So not deliberate handball? The deliberate handball area is very murky IMO.

Edited by Wendy Saintss

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12 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

The action of running the length of the pitch would be a separate to the action to the initial catching of the ball.

I disagree Wendy if you are allowing that a foul/infringement that starts outside the area carries on into the area is a continuation then even in the instance of shirt-pulling you are saying that running is a different action.

I will however give you a different situation that will blur the lines even more with regards to Dallas's decision......if a goalkeeper  handles the ball outside his area and takes the ball back into the area in hand, is it a free-kick or play-on??

Dallas and his linesman, I believe, thought that the ball was initially handled inside the area and was just a shit decision.

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I was having a look at the Celtic view on this on their Kerrydale Street site. Amongst a full analysis of all the penalties, one guy has posted the following regarding the handball one:

Quote

Penalty 3: *** crosses ball. Trajectory of ball directly heading for upper torso/head of Saints defender. Defender, in a deliberate action, raises arms to protect himself. Ball strikes arms mid-jump and while said defender is clearly just outside penalty box. Defender then comes down just inside box and ball strikes his knee and, completely unintentionally, bounces off his left hand. Dallas II of the Dallas Liars Club initially indicates free kick on edge of box but following a very brief visual exchange with linesman again points to the penalty spot. The twitter post quoted suggests that, as there is a second handball in the box, this supersedes the first handball and a penalty is the correct decision. Unfortunately for Mr Penalty the laws of the game disagree on two clear points.The relevant laws are as follows:

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences: 
• handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within their penalty area)
• holds an opponent 
• impedes an opponent with contact
• bites or spits at someone 
• throws an object at the ball, opponent or match official, or makes contact with the ball with a held object
 
 
Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with the hand or arm. 
The following must be considered: 
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand) 
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball) 
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an offence

Given that any handball must be deliberate for it to be deemed a direct free kick, only the first (the one clearly outside the box) can be considered a foul (and even then only if you think an attempt to protect oneself is a deliberate act of handball, which on balance I kinda do in this instance). You might note that Mr Penalty in his twitter quote actually omits the word deliberate. from his quoting of the rules... no doubt an honest mistake on his part! Sadly for him the need for there to be deliberate intent clearly shows that the second handball in the box is not a foul.

But there's more. A number of **** have suggested that as the non-offence carried on into the box (and as I've shown it didn't) there is a rule which states a penalty must be given, This is also incorrect, The rule is this:

Advantage 
If the referee plays the advantage... blah blah blah and... a defender starts holding an attacker outside the penalty area and continues holding inside the penalty area, the referee must award a penalty kick. (was that a correct use of ellipsis? I really hope so!)

As you can see the advantage rule, whereby an offence carrying on into the box should result in a penalty, is very specific to holding an attacker as they enter the box. It absolutely does not relate to a handball incident. In the case of a handball it is the initial offence that stands. As such this is not a penalty on two grounds. Firstly the applicable offence is outside the box (even the orcs admit this) and supersedes any subsequent incident and secondly, the subsequent handball inside the box is not a deliberate act and therefore not even a foul anyway. Not a penalty. Incorrect decision.
 

 

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22 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

I will however give you a different situation that will blur the lines even more with regards to Dallas's decision......if a goalkeeper  handles the ball outside his area and takes the ball back into the area in hand, is it a free-kick or play-on??

Dallas and his linesman, I believe, thought that the ball was initially handled inside the area and was just a shit decision.

Again, as per running the length of the pitch carrying the ball, in your goalkeeper scenario, taking the ball into his own area is a separate action.

 

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22 minutes ago, WeeBud said:

I disagree Wendy if you are allowing that a foul/infringement that starts outside the area carries on into the area is a continuation then even in the instance of shirt-pulling you are saying that running is a different action.

I will however give you a different situation that will blur the lines even more with regards to Dallas's decision......if a goalkeeper  handles the ball outside his area and takes the ball back into the area in hand, is it a free-kick or play-on??

Dallas and his linesman, I believe, thought that the ball was initially handled inside the area and was just a shit decision.

Tansey 'handball ' not even handball- he was protecting his face. 

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2 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

Again, as per running the length of the pitch carrying the ball, in your goalkeeper scenario, taking the ball into his own area is a separate action.

 

if the keeper does what Tansey did is it play on?? Plain and simple yes or no answer??

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1 minute ago, WeeBud said:

if the keeper does what Tansey did is it play on?? Plain and simple yes or no answer??

Well obviously its not a simple yes or no answer as there is a debate as to whether the handball is an offence in the first place as he had his hands up to protect his face!

If its deemed to be a foul then, going by the quote that dirty sanchez has given, then its a free kick as it occurred outside the box. The continuation into the box in terms of handball is irrelevant.

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Just now, Wendy Saintss said:

Well, obviously it was handball as it struck his hands!

 

Not deliberate and not in an unnatural position.  Protecting his face. Not a free kick and definitely not a penalty.

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1 hour ago, WeeBud said:

Ask him what would happen if a player caught the ball in his opponent's area and ran the length of the pitch before dropping it in his own box...….does he think it would be a penalty?? 

If it's Dermot Gallagher's interpretation he is quoting Gallagher actually claims that Tansey was on the line when he made contact with the ball which we've all seen he wasn't. Steve Conroy, quoted in the same paper, says it wasn't a penalty.

He did well to use the word irrefutable in a sentence though.

Gallagher did claim that the fourth should have been a penalty as the "tackle" began outside the box but continued in to the box.

The match reporter called the match a "Dallas error-fest"

 

 

48 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

The rule with regards to fouls is that if a foul starts outside the box and then continues into the box then a penalty should be given.

This, however, is in relation to one player fouling another. I haven't been able to find any clarification if its the same principle for handball.

IMO, it probably is and therefore it probably was a penalty.

But, also IMO, he puts his hands up to protect his face. The ball would have struck his head if he hadn't put his hands up. So not deliberate handball? The deliberate handball area is very murky IMO.

Thank you both and thank you for neither of you being childish enough to point out that I said Baird rather than Tansey! :D

Mind you, on the question itself, I think I’m more confused now than I was before I asked it. 

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14 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

Well obviously its not a simple yes or no answer as there is a debate as to whether the handball is an offence in the first place as he had his hands up to protect his face!

If its deemed to be a foul then, going by the quote that dirty sanchez has given, then its a free kick as it occurred outside the box. The continuation into the box in terms of handball is irrelevant. 

:clapping

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10 minutes ago, TPAFKA Jersey 2 said:

 

Thank you both and thank you for neither of you being childish enough to point out that I said Baird rather than Tansey! :D

Mind you, on the question itself, I think I’m more confused now than I was before I asked it. 

From reading the analysis of the guy that dirty sanchez has provided, I think the 'continuation into the box' thing only applies if one player is fouling another.

For a handball, even though the ball continued to make contact with his hand from outside the box and into the box and also that the ball rebounded from his knee onto his hand a second time, in the box, it doesn't matter. The initial handball is outside the box so its not a penalty.

There is also the debate as to whether it was a deliberate handball. IMO, its not as his hands are there to protect his face. He's not sticking his hands up to stop the ball.

All IMO of course!

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