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Bud the Baker

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I know there's a thread in The Sin Bin about Shamima Begum but I detest the idea of The Sin Bin and refuse to post there so here goes.

 

I am that bleeding heart liberal who thinks we should re-admit her to the UK - she was a brainwashed child when she left and is now a brainwashed young adult with a tragic history of having lost two children - if we're not willing to accept her return and try to rehabilitate her are we any better than ISIS, if we're not prepared to take that risk and be better than ISIS what is the point in it all?

 

On a more practical note I think refusing her return and demonising her will push young Muslims on the cusp of being "radicalised" further down that route.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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Are we any better than ISIS?

Well no matter what happens, it's unlikely we will burn her alive, cut her head off with a rusty blade, drop a massive rock on her head or tie her arms and legs to horses before ripping her apart by scaring the horses and video her slow death before releasing it on any number of freely available gore sites, all of which ISIS has done and continues to do.

On balance I would say yes, we most certainly ARE better than ISIS.

It's one thing being a bleeding heart liberal but you risk looking like a bloody idiot if you don't educate yourself before making ridiculous statements.

Edited by oaksoft

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8 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

I know there's a thread in The Sin Bin about Shamima Begum but I detest the idea of The Sin Bin and refuse to post there so here goes.

 

I am that bleeding heart liberal who thinks we should re-admit her to the UK - she was a brainwashed child when she left and is now a brainwashed young adult with a tragic history of having lost two children - if we're not willing to accept her return and try to rehabilitate her are we any better than ISIS, if we're not prepared to take that risk and be better than ISIS what is the point in it all?

 

On a more practical note I think refusing her return and demonising her will push young Muslims on the cusp of being "radicalised" further down that route.

As far as , rehabilitate goes , people need to want to be rehabilitated before that works and l very much doubt that is the case with that individual . What would the rehabilitation consist of ? Tea and cake with the vicar. .

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I certainly won't attempt to ridicule Bud's approach. I find this the toughest of any of the topics that has been posted on the forum for discussion. I do feel for this girl's family. I do feel that the 3 girls who set off together had,  one way or another,  been radicalised at a young and vulnerable stage in their life. One is dead,  another is missing and this girl is pregnant and now just 19. My heart says show compassion, something I know most of us feel she didn't or doesn't show for victims of the war. My head takes a different route.  It says that she shows no regret or remorse.  On balance,  she chose to make Syria her home.  She should remain there. 

Edited by St.Ricky

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1 hour ago, saintnextlifetime said:

As far as , rehabilitate goes , people need to want to be rehabilitated before that works and l very much doubt that is the case with that individual . What would the rehabilitation consist of ? Tea and cake with the vicar. .

I don't accept all that is said or supposed to have been said, regarding the back stories here; I am more than sure that those stories have been colourised and amended to suit the purpose of the 'latest telling'.  However; my main problem here; is spending time effort and money on somebody who demonised this country's culture in favour of a system that allows any treatment of those who do not bow totally to its will and yet (simply to make her life easier) she now wishes to return, no apology, no regret?  my answer to that would be, |NO CHANCE.

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We have enough problems with young people sleeping on our streets, foodbanks and a lovely Brexit to look forward. Why is this even making news, she lied, she left, she is not a victim just an opportunist. Make a stance , our right wing Gov dont want Europeans here, so why would they entertain terrorists ......  

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I would have sympathy with the idea that she has been brainwashed if i hadn't seen the somewhat unapologetic interviews with her family and supporters in the UK.

Teenagers make mistakes in the UK and are generally punished for it.  Her crime is more of the aiding and abetting variety than it is serious perpretrator, but her view of the victims seems to be that they had it coming.

Rehabillitation, I'm afraid, takes several form and punishment is one of those.  I don't know the ins and outs of de-radicalisation, it could be a sympathetic re-education or it could another form of brainwashing.  The former will only work if her entire family is bought in to the notion that she has aided and abetted some pretty serious shit and should have known better-I'm not so sure, on the scant information I have, if that is the case and the latter is probably only a condition of re-admission into society instead of the re-programming that is required..

My view, she did what she did and did it for twisted reasons that someone else persuaded her were valid.  She still supported an illegal invasion and a cruel regime and was, it seems, happy enough to go along with it all while they were winning.  She supported a regime that was happy to deny food and medical care to countless children, now they are on the run she feels she is entitled to feed her child and herself in a camp that is paid for by the families of the very people she helped murder and oppress and she wants to come home as if it was all no big deal.  I can't reconcile myself to that.

i agree, there is a decision to be made about whether her punishment will create further radicalisation or not, I'd also argue that a lak of consequences sends out an even worse message.  Quite frankly, she is currently not our problem and doesn't need to become our problem.  

The home office should have revoked her citizenship some time ago.instead of the arrogant shit of a home secretary getting the chance to politically grandstand over her case

Edited by beyond our ken

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. She is no longer a child at 19 years old. don't tell me she has not been radicalized.  Did you hear her interview ? Seeing a head in the garbage did not bother her speaking calmly matter of fact as if ite normal. Did it bother you she was asked. No she replied , that answer alone should have our government taking her passport away. Her father attended extremist preacher's who are now banned. Her and her many SCUM brothers & sisters as dash call them should not be let into the UK. 

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Of course she's been radicalised and after her personal experiences over the last 4 years desensitised to violence, to the point where I can understand the lack of sympathy, and I don't think her return should be consequence free, although I'm not sure what UK laws she will have broken. I just look back to NI and see that the situation was not resolved (it's still not fully resolved) until people from both sides decided the price of not fixing the problem was too high.

 

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58 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Of course she's been radicalised and after her personal experiences over the last 4 years desensitised to violence, to the point where I can understand the lack of sympathy, and I don't think her return should be consequence free, although I'm not sure what UK laws she will have broken. I just look back to NI and see that the situation was not resolved (it's still not fully resolved) until people from both sides decided the price of not fixing the problem was too high.

 

The situation in NI came about because of the historical oppression of Catholics and discrimination against them in society including the workplace.

How on earth does your brain arrive at the conclusion that this situation is in any way comparable to ISIS?

Are you on the windup today? :lol:

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59 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

Of course she's been radicalised and after her personal experiences over the last 4 years desensitised to violence, to the point where I can understand the lack of sympathy, and I don't think her return should be consequence free, although I'm not sure what UK laws she will have broken. I just look back to NI and see that the situation was not resolved (it's still not fully resolved) until people from both sides decided the price of not fixing the problem was too high.

 

I do understand where you are coming from Colin. Dash and their followers believe in a very extream Islam that has no place in a democratic land. She should move to a land Islamic land that still use barbaric law from hundreds of years ago. What is she going to teach her child about her father now in heaven with 300 wife's.. 

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I’m usually one of those with “lefty” views, welcoming to refugees, asylum seekers, everyone is human type views.

However, in this case she can f**k off. She wasn’t forced into joining the cunts, she chose to. 

I admire the honesty from the OP knowing it’s more along the “unpopular opinion side of things.

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Of course she's been radicalised and after her personal experiences over the last 4 years desensitised to violence, to the point where I can understand the lack of sympathy, and I don't think her return should be consequence free, although I'm not sure what UK laws she will have broken. I just look back to NI and see that the situation was not resolved (it's still not fully resolved) until people from both sides decided the price of not fixing the problem was too high.
 
I agree with most of this although don't really see the NI comparison.
Its a really difficult situation as St Ricky points out its head vs heart, although what each says may change depending on your point of view.

One thing though - for those saying she chose to go there etc. she was 15 and basically groomed along with her friends.

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As it stands, the UK have no right to stop her from coming home. She has no other nationality therefore we have to let her come back under international law. What happens when she does so is another matter. She will be investigated but I doubt there would be any charges. She will no doubt be on a "watch list" free to spread whatever she believes.

What we cannot do is assist in her making her way here. No free passage. She needs to make it on her own.

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14 hours ago, oaksoft said:

The situation in NI came about because of the historical oppression of Catholics and discrimination against them in society including the workplace.

How on earth does your brain arrive at the conclusion that this situation is in any way comparable to ISIS?

Are you on the windup today? :lol:

The comparisons I see between NI and the conflict with extremist Muslims groups under a variety of names depending on the time & place (not just ISIS)  is that both are long standing and have been going on for decades (with grievances arguably stretching over hundreds of years) is that it won't be over until people try too see the other sides POV & compromise. 5 years before the Good Friday Agreement how many people ever thought they'd see Martin McGuiness & Ian Paisley share a car and smile while doing so?

 

Muslim terrorism didn't start with ISIS & it won't be finished just because the Caliphate has been driven underground.

 

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2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

The comparisons I see between NI and the conflict with extremist Muslims groups under a variety of names depending on the time & place (not just ISIS)  is that both are long standing and have been going on for decades (with grievances arguably stretching over hundreds of years) is that it won't be over until people try too see the other sides POV & compromise. 5 years before the Good Friday Agreement how many people ever thought they'd see Martin McGuiness & Ian Paisley share a car and smile while doing so?

 

Muslim terrorism didn't start with ISIS & it won't be finished just because the Caliphate has been driven underground.

 

The difference in extremist Muslims is that they are totally against democratic values and our way of life our freedoms. 

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3 hours ago, Isle Of Bute Saint said:

The difference in extremist Muslims is that they are totally against democratic values and our way of life our freedoms. 

Fair point, but I still think you've got to try.

 

As an aside the 300 virgins malarky was introduced to the scene by the Crusaders when they invaded the Holy Land in the Middle Ages.

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Fair point, but I still think you've got to try.
 
As an aside the 300 virgins malarky was introduced to the scene by the Crusaders when they invaded the Holy Land in the Middle Ages.


It’s in the Quran so that can’t be true!

I wonder if you get to pick them? Swipe right or left?

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58 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 


It’s in the Quran so that can’t be true!

I wonder if you get to pick them? Swipe right or left? emoji848.png

 

In the Quran martyrdom was considered to be anyone who died with their faith intact (well men anyway I'm not sure what reward is offered to our distaff portion of the population :P )- the meaning has been reinterpreted over the years but should not simply be restricted to the suicide bombers it appears to has evolved into these days especially in Western media.

My point is that the Crusaders were given the same kind of promises that Islamic extremists are nowadays although it's usually a mistake to claim something as a first. Moving on very few in the West believe in that concept nowadays so it's conceivable that the theology could similarly be removed from Muslim thinking, maybe even within a generation.

 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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In the Quran martyrdom was considered to be anyone who died with their faith intact (well men anyway I'm not sure what reward is offered to our distaff portion of the population )- the meaning has been reinterpreted over the years but should not simply be restricted to the suicide bombers it appears to has evolved into these days especially in Western media.
My point is that the Crusaders were given the same kind of promises that Islamic extremists are nowadays although it's usually a mistake to claim something as a first. Moving on very few in the West believe in that concept nowadays so it's conceivable that the theology could similarly be removed from Muslim thinking, maybe even within a generation.
 


Yeh, but it’s not in the bible though. It’s in the Quran.

Anyway, very few in the West (well maybe apart from the US) believe in anything to do with Christianity at all these days.

Maybe Islam will go through the same process as they get richer?



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5 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 


Yeh, but it’s not in the bible though. It’s in the Quran. emoji12.png

Anyway, very few in the West (well maybe apart from the US) believe in anything to do with Christianity at all these days.

Maybe Islam will go through the same process as they get richer?


 

 

But it's not in the Quran. not in the sense you're using it.

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5 hours ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 


Yeh, but it’s not in the bible though. It’s in the Quran. emoji12.png

Anyway, very few in the West (well maybe apart from the US) believe in anything to do with Christianity at all these days.

Maybe Islam will go through the same process as they get richer?


 

 

Probably. Religion absolutely festers in areas of poverty and poor education and it is no surprise that this is the demographic where ISIS has recruited from. People who cannot spot a set of classic control techniques a mile away are a fertile breeding ground for it.

Money and education generally tends to sort this problem out. 

 

Edited by oaksoft

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:33 PM, Bud the Baker said:

 

In the Quran martyrdom was considered to be anyone who died with their faith intact (well men anyway I'm not sure what reward is offered to our distaff portion of the population :P )- the meaning has been reinterpreted over the years but should not simply be restricted to the suicide bombers it appears to has evolved into these days especially in Western media.

My point is that the Crusaders were given the same kind of promises that Islamic extremists are nowadays although it's usually a mistake to claim something as a first. Moving on very few in the West believe in that concept nowadays so it's conceivable that the theology could similarly be removed from Muslim thinking, maybe even within a generation.

 

The promise of 300 virgins who would no doubt end up "in tune" should frighten the sh!te out of any sane man. I cannot see why this would be an incentive to blow yourself to smithereens.:lol:

Edited by stlucifer

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