BuddieinEK Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 The arithmetic isn’t correct, that’s a fair comment. The actual figures will however be between one and two players. I believe you have said before you run your own business, you will surely therefor be able to confirm that salaries can be tax deductible against income streams? Baz... You are good at digging up numbers.My family stand season ticket was reduced in price to compensate for the fact it didn't include old firm games.Fair enough.I willingly agreed to enter into that contract.Can you calculate the total drop in income between full price season tickets for the family stand and the reduced price? I know some folks will have paid £5 or £10 to get back in... But you don't seem to count peripheral income or expenditure...So... The drop in season ticket income alone was how much? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, bazil85 said: The debate is between given them one stand or two stands and what that income is, not one stand plus part of the West again. . And that is why your figures are so far out. You are making a mistake with your assertion above because the differential was being used to justify the change from giving them W6 and W7 to giving them the family stand. There is no way that the difference between those two situations is two players. It's obviously not and it's disengenious to claim that we are getting that advantage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, bazil85 said: The arithmetic isn’t correct, that’s a fair comment. The actual figures will however be between one and two players. I believe you have said before you run your own business, you will surely therefor be able to confirm that salaries can be tax deductible against income streams? I do run my own business but I purposely don't hire employees so I can't tell you the answer to that but I suspect you are right. You have to remember though that an employer will need to pay employers NI, sick pay, holiday pay and f**king pension contributions as well (dont get me started on this nonsense ) so it's not as clean cut as you would think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) Can you imagine an OF fan desperately trying to justify giving their bitter rivals an extra stand because it makes £10 more difference? Baz is either a club or smisa board member. No true saints fan after watching our keeper almost seriously injured by an explosive would still be waving the bigot flag. does he know if the police determine the explosive thrown at Hladky is a military grade flashbang (stun grenade) then its actually an act of terrorism. Edited April 6, 2019 by Lord Pityme Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 Can you imagine an OF fan desperately trying to justify giving their bitter rivals an extra stand because it makes £10 more difference? Baz is either a club or smisa board member. No true saints fan after watching our keeper almost seriously injured by an explosive would still be waving the bigot flag. does he know if the police determine the explosive thrown at Hladky is a military grade flashbang (stun grenade) then its actually an act of terrorism.Indeed...I'm fed up reading about "fireworks" when our players were endangered by a military grade explosive device used in battle to stun the opposition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kombibuddie Posted April 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Lord Pityme said: Can you imagine an OF fan desperately trying to justify giving their bitter rivals an extra stand because it makes £10 more difference? Baz is either a club or smisa board member. No true saints fan after watching our keeper almost seriously injured by an explosive would still be waving the bigot flag. does he know if the police determine the explosive thrown at Hladky is a military grade flashbang (stun grenade) then its actually an act of terrorism. Has the club submitted an official complaint to Police Scotland about the use of whatever devices these were, thrown from the Celtic support? I say Police Scotland because the SPFL/SFA would do SFA about it if a complaint was submitted to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kombibuddie Posted April 6, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 (edited) back to the point of topic, We have the 8th highest attendance figure in the Scottish Premiership this season Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock (100051), Dundee (92772), St Mirren (90016), Motherwell (79598), Livingston (61212), St Johnstone (58790), Hamilton (44230). The average attendance for the teams round about us are Kilmarnock 6670, Dundee 6185, St Mirren 5295, Motherwell 5307, Livingston 3820, St Johnstone 4199, Hamilton 2949 I would argue, the above figures demonstrate, the additional income we receive from giving Glasgow's Ugly Sisters 2 stands is of little or no benefit at all. Is the additional 10035 through the door at Killie Park really worth 8 League places & 37 points? I'd suggest not as we have the counter argument that we have more punters through the turnstiles than St Johnstone, 4 places + 23 points better off, Motherwell, 3 places + 22 points better off, Livingston, 2 places + 22 points better off, Hamilton 1 place + 4 points better off. Dundee, 1 place + 3 points worse off. It is how you spend the money that each club generates that is the key factor, not the additional money generated from selling your soul for a few dollars more as we have done v Rangers & Celtic this season. The average attendance this season, all clubs is 5295. Multiply that by 3 (home games v Rangers & Celtic) = 15885. The combined attendance of the 3 games v Rangers & Celtic has been 19918. The difference of giving Rangers & Celtic 2 stands has actually been 4033 The additional revenue would be up to 4033 X £27(approx.) = £108891 (figures at full ticket price and does not include deductions, tax, police costs etc) Remind me, exactly what was the actual profit generated for St Mirren FC it definitely isn't £108891 Giving them 2 stands is justified by GLS (& others throughout this argument) as a business and financial decision. If that is truly the case, why are clubs, not as well supported as us & generating less income, St Johnstone, Motherwell & Livingston, all faring better than us & why are Kilmarnock faring so much better than us when the difference between them & us (on attendance) is comparable to ours against St Johnstone. The sums don't add up to the argument, giving Rangers & Celtic 2 stands is in the best interests of St Mirren FC. It clearly is not. Edited April 6, 2019 by Kombibuddie additional point Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Pityme Posted April 6, 2019 Report Share Posted April 6, 2019 55 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said: Has the club submitted an official complaint to Police Scotland about the use of whatever devices these were, thrown from the Celtic support? I say Police Scotland because the SPFL/SFA would do SFA about it if a complaint was submitted to them. A wee bit of an insight to a former specialism. That wasnt a firework you buy out of asda linwood/Elderslie/Paisley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 12 hours ago, BuddieinEK said: Additional stewarding costs? Lost income from fans staying away (I cost them £20 for two). Reduced income from family stand season tickets! Very obvious ones. Did you choose to ignore them or are you showing your lack of knowledge? The policing costs for games average £4,500 per fixture and is weighted to more populated fixtures so our worst games will still be much lower. They will still outstrip steward costs. How much do you think a Steward makes??? The next two points are evidenced in our average crowds which are considerably up this season following this decision. If you don’t believe me look yourself, some fans might stay away but it’s basic maths that this makes us money. Our average crowds haven’t been this high in over a decade. I think I have very clearly shown my knowledge on this subject by addressing every financial argument you have presented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 The policing costs for games average £4,500 per fixture and is weighted to more populated fixtures so our worst games will still be much lower. They will still outstrip steward costs. How much do you think a Steward makes??? The next two points are evidenced in our average crowds which are considerably up this season following this decision. If you don’t believe me look yourself, some fans might stay away but it’s basic maths that this makes us money. Our average crowds haven’t been this high in over a decade. I think I have very clearly shown my knowledge on this subject by addressing every financial argument you have presented. Are you a politician?You said a helluva lot without answering the question!Care to answer it or admit you have no clue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 The policing costs for games average £4,500 per fixture and is weighted to more populated fixtures so our worst games will still be much lower. They will still outstrip steward costs. How much do you think a Steward makes??? The next two points are evidenced in our average crowds which are considerably up this season following this decision. If you don’t believe me look yourself, some fans might stay away but it’s basic maths that this makes us money. Our average crowds haven’t been this high in over a decade. I think I have very clearly shown my knowledge on this subject by addressing every financial argument you have presented. Saints at home to Killie and Hearts....V Saints at home to Alloa and Dumbarton.Aye... The increased crowds are down to giving the OF the family stand!That is laughably insane thinking![emoji23] [emoji23] [emoji23] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 hours ago, BuddieinEK said: Baz... You are good at digging up numbers. My family stand season ticket was reduced in price to compensate for the fact it didn't include old firm games. Fair enough. I willingly agreed to enter into that contract. Can you calculate the total drop in income between full price season tickets for the family stand and the reduced price? I know some folks will have paid £5 or £10 to get back in... But you don't seem to count peripheral income or expenditure... So... The drop in season ticket income alone was how much? Without the figures of families that paid to sit in main/ west stand no. But again as I have said all along our average crowds are up considerably (1,389 on last time we were in SP) this season. With facts like that it is beyond doubt this process is making us money. I genuinely find it staggering that people don’t think the board and their accountants have costed this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 hours ago, oaksoft said: And that is why your figures are so far out. You are making a mistake with your assertion above because the differential was being used to justify the change from giving them W6 and W7 to giving them the family stand. There is no way that the difference between those two situations is two players. It's obviously not and it's disengenious to claim that we are getting that advantage. I am making no mistake. This debate from the start has been about one stand or two stands. Can you imagine the explosion on here if the board chose to go back to given W6/W7? LPM would jizz his pants. You seem to think I wasn’t aware of that which I’m a bit miffed about given I have been very clear in my maths and sources of evidence. Again I’m willing to discuss against given back out W6/W7 but I see it as a moot point because that doesn’t look like a viable alternative option anymore. The reason that it now is difference between 1 to 2 players is it is now one stand or both stands. Unless you genuinely think given W6 and W7 remains a viable option? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 hours ago, oaksoft said: I do run my own business but I purposely don't hire employees so I can't tell you the answer to that but I suspect you are right. You have to remember though that an employer will need to pay employers NI, sick pay, holiday pay and f**king pension contributions as well (dont get me started on this nonsense ) so it's not as clean cut as you would think. No I know it isn’t clear cut, my point is purely on the tax side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Lord Pityme said: Can you imagine an OF fan desperately trying to justify giving their bitter rivals an extra stand because it makes £10 more difference? Baz is either a club or smisa board member. No true saints fan after watching our keeper almost seriously injured by an explosive would still be waving the bigot flag. does he know if the police determine the explosive thrown at Hladky is a military grade flashbang (stun grenade) then its actually an act of terrorism. Yet again I like it no more than the next person. Yet again I am not on any board, SMISA, club or otherwise. Yet again you are wrong. Yet again given one stand instead of two would not stop the idiots throwing missiles, it would just mean we had 100s more in with home fans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 Without the figures of families that paid to sit in main/ west stand no. But again as I have said all along our average crowds are up considerably (1,389 on last time we were in SP) this season. With facts like that it is beyond doubt this process is making us money. I genuinely find it staggering that people don’t think the board and their accountants have costed this. Yet again.. and I will type this slowly for the hard of thinking...How much lower was our season ticket income purely because of the decision to reduce family stand tickets costs to exclude of games.The thing you didn't include in your costing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oaksoft Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, bazil85 said: I am making no mistake. This debate from the start has been about one stand or two stands. Can you imagine the explosion on here if the board chose to go back to given W6/W7? LPM would jizz his pants. You seem to think I wasn’t aware of that which I’m a bit miffed about given I have been very clear in my maths and sources of evidence. Again I’m willing to discuss against given back out W6/W7 but I see it as a moot point because that doesn’t look like a viable alternative option anymore. The reason that it now is difference between 1 to 2 players is it is now one stand or both stands. Unless you genuinely think given W6 and W7 remains a viable option? You are a little too stubborn for my taste. Especially on a Sunday morning. So I think I'll leave you to your fantasy arithmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 9 hours ago, Kombibuddie said: back to the point of topic, We have the 8th highest attendance figure in the Scottish Premiership this season Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock (100051), Dundee (92772), St Mirren (90016), Motherwell (79598), Livingston (61212), St Johnstone (58790), Hamilton (44230). The average attendance for the teams round about us are Kilmarnock 6670, Dundee 6185, St Mirren 5295, Motherwell 5307, Livingston 3820, St Johnstone 4199, Hamilton 2949 I would argue, the above figures demonstrate, the additional income we receive from giving Glasgow's Ugly Sisters 2 stands is of little or no benefit at all. Is the additional 10035 through the door at Killie Park really worth 8 League places & 37 points? I'd suggest not as we have the counter argument that we have more punters through the turnstiles than St Johnstone, 4 places + 23 points better off, Motherwell, 3 places + 22 points better off, Livingston, 2 places + 22 points better off, Hamilton 1 place + 4 points better off. Dundee, 1 place + 3 points worse off. It is how you spend the money that each club generates that is the key factor, not the additional money generated from selling your soul for a few dollars more as we have done v Rangers & Celtic this season. The average attendance this season, all clubs is 5295. Multiply that by 3 (home games v Rangers & Celtic) = 15885. The combined attendance of the 3 games v Rangers & Celtic has been 19918. The difference of giving Rangers & Celtic 2 stands has actually been 4033 The additional revenue would be up to 4033 X £27(approx.) = £108891 (figures at full ticket price and does not include deductions, tax, police costs etc) Remind me, exactly what was the actual profit generated for St Mirren FC it definitely isn't £108891 Giving them 2 stands is justified by GLS (& others throughout this argument) as a business and financial decision. If that is truly the case, why are clubs, not as well supported as us & generating less income, St Johnstone, Motherwell & Livingston, all faring better than us & why are Kilmarnock faring so much better than us when the difference between them & us (on attendance) is comparable to ours against St Johnstone. The sums don't add up to the argument, giving Rangers & Celtic 2 stands is in the best interests of St Mirren FC. It clearly is not. Please see my previous posts, player wages are tax deductible and police costs per game average £4,500 which is weighted to higher attended games so ours will be considerably lower. This equates to between 1 and 2 player wages for our club. Your points on league positions are fine but we’re 3 points from safety. Can you imagine this was the difference between signing our superstar goalkeeper and solid centre back in January... we could be cut and drift (yes I know ifs and buts but I also know we have players on six month deals which is arguably 3-4 players in January) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 You are a little too stubborn for my taste. Especially on a Sunday morning. So I think I'll leave you to your fantasy arithmetic. [emoji38]In fairness, he's funny!Blind faith on the Sabbath!Whoda thunk it?[emoji12] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 18 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: Are you a politician? You said a helluva lot without answering the question! Care to answer it or admit you have no clue? What question didn’t I answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 16 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: Saints at home to Killie and Hearts.... V Saints at home to Alloa and Dumbarton. Aye... The increased crowds are down to giving the OF the family stand! That is laughably insane thinking! Have a wee look at any season we’ve been in the SP the last nine seasons at the stadium and come back to me on this point. We can see if you’re still laughing. Looks like only one of us has done research here... Doh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: Yet again.. and I will type this slowly for the hard of thinking... How much lower was our season ticket income purely because of the decision to reduce family stand tickets costs to exclude of games. The thing you didn't include in your costing. Yet again and i’ll Type this slowly for you as well. Without knowing the numbers that bought the reduced price ticket I could not possibly answer. Heres a question for you though, do you think average crowds of no less than 500 fans more this season are likely to result in a drop of income? If the answer is yes my second question is seriously??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 7 minutes ago, oaksoft said: You are a little too stubborn for my taste. Especially on a Sunday morning. So I think I'll leave you to your fantasy arithmetic. Or you could always just point out where it is wrong? Do you agree given I’m comparing one stand vs two it is correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazil85 Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 8 minutes ago, BuddieinEK said: In fairness, he's funny! Blind faith on the Sabbath! Whoda thunk it? No you’re both right, the board didn’t cost this at all and have given away two stands even though it has cost the club money. Police costs are £50k per game, steward costs even more and we also lose half the income into a black hole at the back of Greenhill Road thats a lot more likely to be correct than my very simple, evidence backed maths Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuddieinEK Posted April 7, 2019 Report Share Posted April 7, 2019 What question didn’t I answer?All of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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