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TPAFKATS

Dundee's fan ownership 'saga'

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4 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

 

Don't know if this has been posted elsewhere, thought it might be more relevant in our fan ownership section.

https://www.nutmegmagazine.co.uk/issue-2/a-sorry-saga/

 

 

That is a horrific read and with only a small number of years to go we are going to have to deal with it head-on.

There will be those who claim it won't happen to Saints but we have seen the damage someone like LPM can do. On the other side we have guys like bazil85. I know neither has said they are interested but they provide a useful example of what we must avoid at all costs. Neither is capable of compromise. One won't say anything supportive of the club and the other won't say anything critical. Both will mislead, change goalposts and spread lies to win their arguments. Both cannot be trusted to work in team environments.

Neither of these two types of people can be allowed to get anywhere near a boardroom of any description, let alone our club board. It only requires a couple of people like that, one on either side, and fan ownership at our club will collapse. There will be internal warfare as two people who don't understand the meaning of compromise dig in, attracting their own lieutenants and creating an ideological civil war.

Are we all absolutely certain nobody of this type wwill find their way into a powerful position after BTB completes? It's my worst nightmare that we end up attracting that calibre of candidate and that this will all end very badly in all likelihood unless some people with a verifiable track record of business success and working at board level put their names forward.

Personally, I think it might be better if the club stayed in Gordon's hands but I'm still open to persuasion on fan ownership.

It's a cautionary tale and we'd do well to think very hard about it whilst we have time.

Edited by oaksoft

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4 hours ago, oaksoft said:

That is a horrific read and with only a small number of years to go we are going to have to deal with it head-on.

There will be those who claim it won't happen to Saints but we have seen the damage someone like LPM can do. On the other side we have guys like bazil85. I know neither has said they are interested but they provide a useful example of what we must avoid at all costs. Neither is capable of compromise. One won't say anything supportive of the club and the other won't say anything critical. Both will mislead, change goalposts and spread lies to win their arguments. Both cannot be trusted to work in team environments.

Neither of these two types of people can be allowed to get anywhere near a boardroom of any description, let alone our club board. It only requires a couple of people like that, one on either side, and fan ownership at our club will collapse. There will be internal warfare as two people who don't understand the meaning of compromise dig in, attracting their own lieutenants and creating an ideological civil war.

Are we all absolutely certain nobody of this type wwill find their way into a powerful position after BTB completes? It's my worst nightmare that we end up attracting that calibre of candidate and that this will all end very badly in all likelihood unless some people with a verifiable track record of business success and working at board level put their names forward.

Personally, I think it might be better if the club stayed in Gordon's hands but I'm still open to persuasion on fan ownership.

It's a cautionary tale and we'd do well to think very hard about it whilst we have time.

What utter nonsense, again I am not interested as I have already told you  further rubbish from you as normal including: 

- if I ever was (hypothetical I categorically won’t be) as a fan owned club I would run on the will of the fans not myself so not being compromising is wrong.

-I have made it clear on here I’m happy for people to be critical of SMISA, it’s a discussion forum, I’m allowed to be positive and supportive of the arrangement  

- I have and do criticise the club when it is justified NOT when they make difficult decisions that I can empathise with 

- you and no one else has been able to quote a single lie or goalpost move despite repeated asks

- I work in a team environment in my business life, I assure you I am more than capable. As someone that doesn’t personally know me you making such a disrespectful & unsubstantiated claim says so much more about you than it does me

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I have no doubt our club will end up in the hands of the "sausage roll brigade" which is disappointing but was probably inevitable as stu said on P6 of the Empowering thread - Que Sera! 

Quote

Kinda confirms my theory that, rightly or wrongly, the vast majority of the members aren't that fussed about the runnings of SMiSA and some of the stuff discussed in ridiculous debates on here but are quite happy just to pay their money and have no further involvement.

********************

Back to Dundee, both are now owned by Americans, I don't think you have to be overly cynical to see that with one of the clubs (Dundee) looking to move to an out of town stadium there is a possibility of the owners looking to merge the clubs :boxing both of which were in debt last time I looked. 

Now that artificial pitches are allowed in the top flight one possibility is that both clubs could share a new stadium which could be financed by the sale of both city grounds - given the debt it's hard to see how else it could be done but this could take upwards of 10 years (see the saga that was Aberdeen's new stadium).

Ultimately I am not overly fussed over the fate of the Dundee clubs, the supporters of both clubs seem to be unable to accept that as things stand the best they can realistically hope for is a Cup win every coupla decades.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I have no doubt our club will end up in the hands of the "sausage roll brigade" which is disappointing but was probably inevitable as stu said on P6 of the Empowering thread - Que Sera! 

********************

Back to Dundee, both are now owned by Americans, I don't think you have to be overly cynical to see that with one of the clubs (Dundee) looking to move to an out of town stadium there is a possibility of the owners looking to merge the clubs :boxing both of which were in debt last time I looked. 

Now that artificial pitches are allowed in the top flight one possibility is that both clubs could share a new stadium which could be financed by the sale of both city grounds - given the debt it's hard to see how else it could be done but this could take upwards of 10 years (see the saga that was Aberdeen's new stadium).

Ultimately I am not overly fussed over the fate of the Dundee clubs, the supporters of both clubs seem to be unable to accept that as things stand the best they can realistically hope for is a Cup win every coupla decades.

 

 

It's a curious thing, the merging of the Dundee clubs. I think it makes sense but I'm sure their response would be 'Would you merge with Morton?' In all honesty, if Morton and St Mirren were based on the same street in a place the size of Greenock, Paisley or Dundee then yes I would. Fact is we don't and there are other clubs closer, not saying we should merge with either of them but it feels right Greenock & Paisley having one big team each and I think same goes for Dundee. They could be on par with The Edinburgh clubs and Aberdeen. 

I'm not concerned about who we get in after BTB completes. Fan ownership over many different models has been successful at a number of clubs and our model seems very well throughout out and miles ahead of plan.

SMFC don't have any anomaly in roaster fans compared to other clubs that make it work. It might seem like that at times from the inside looking out though :lol:

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4 minutes ago, bazil85 said:

It's a curious thing, the merging of the Dundee clubs. I think it makes sense but I'm sure their response would be 'Would you merge with Morton?' In all honesty, if Morton and St Mirren were based on the same street in a place the size of Greenock, Paisley or Dundee then yes I would. Fact is we don't and there are other clubs closer, not saying we should merge with either of them but it feels right Greenock & Paisley having one big team each and I think same goes for Dundee. They could be on par with The Edinburgh clubs and Aberdeen. 

I'm not concerned about who we get in after BTB completes. Fan ownership over many different models has been successful at a number of clubs and our model seems very well throughout out and miles ahead of plan.

SMFC don't have any anomaly in roaster fans compared to other clubs that make it work. It might seem like that at times from the inside looking out though :lol:

I don't think you could merge clubs from different towns like Morton & St. Mirren but if they're in the same city (town as it was) like Inverness it could be done although it caused mucho resentment at the time and there is still at least one fan on P&B who still sticks pins into the ICT threads 25 years on - voodoo stylee :death . Having said that there was a great incentive for the Inverness merger with a place in the expanded league on offer.

**********************

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the proposed Hearts/Hibs merger in 1990 but it certainly caused a stramash!

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/mercer-merger-20-years-on-hibs-supporters-are-stirred-up-to-wrest-their-beloved-club-from-mercer-s-grasp-1-1243663

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“Football fans have notoriously selective memories and simply still having a team to support soon stops being enough when that team is struggling”

 

The quote above from the article on Dundee says it all for me. I believe the vast majority of St. Mirren supporters understand that as a football club we should always live within our means, and if that results in St. Mirren being in a different league then so be it. The core of our support will follow whatever division we are in. We have always been wary of the “White Knight” who promise pots of money and then disappear when the rewards aren’t forthcoming, and long may that continue.

 

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13 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I don't think you could merge clubs from different towns like Morton & St. Mirren but if they're in the same city (town as it was) like Inverness it could be done although it caused mucho resentment at the time and there is still at least one fan on P&B who still sticks pins into the ICT threads 25 years on - voodoo stylee :death . Having said that there was a great incentive for the Inverness merger with a place in the expanded league on offer.

**********************

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the proposed Hearts/Hibs merger in 1990 but it certainly caused a stramash!

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/mercer-merger-20-years-on-hibs-supporters-are-stirred-up-to-wrest-their-beloved-club-from-mercer-s-grasp-1-1243663

Agreed, I think Hearts and Hibs would be a step too far anyway. Edinburgh does feel big enough for two SP clubs. 

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5 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I don't think you could merge clubs from different towns like Morton & St. Mirren but if they're in the same city (town as it was) like Inverness it could be done although it caused mucho resentment at the time and there is still at least one fan on P&B who still sticks pins into the ICT threads 25 years on - voodoo stylee :death . Having said that there was a great incentive for the Inverness merger with a place in the expanded league on offer.

**********************

I don't know if you're old enough to remember the proposed Hearts/Hibs merger in 1990 but it certainly caused a stramash!

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/mercer-merger-20-years-on-hibs-supporters-are-stirred-up-to-wrest-their-beloved-club-from-mercer-s-grasp-1-1243663

This is the issue- Football is tribal- always has been, its its more the "over my dead body" principal that holds true . Its everywhere. As you rightly said Caley Thistle still has massive rifts in the fan base.

Dundee have been a shocking club since the Marr brothers doing a mini Sevco, relegation may well wind them up

 

 

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Edinburgh does feel big enough for two SP clubs. 

Paisley is big enough for an SPL team and
Greenock is big enough for a championship team.

The carnage that will ensue when SMISA is the owner of The Club will be with those members who have mistakenly thought, their ££'s will give them influence on sll St Mirren matters.

GLS has my vote to remain chairman (if he stands for it) but I wish he'd keep the family stand for St Mirren fans & put an end to rangers & celtic getting 2 stands.

Other than that, the fella can crack on for as long as he likes.

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Some of this looks horribly familiar and even more horribly prophetic

 

 

two years in which attempts by the Dundee FC Supporters’ Society to stabilise the club following its latest flirtation with extinction were undermined by leaks, briefings, factionalism, boardroom wrangling, proxy wars and events elsewhere.

 we didn’t have the right people involved,” said Stuart Murphy, who was appointed club chairman when DFCSS became majority shareholders. “With the situation the club was in it could have never been anything other than a holding shop.

there were big personalities involved,” he said. “X couldn’t get along with Y. Z couldn’t get along with Y. There was tension between the CEO, DBBT and the DFCSS guys. There was tension between myself and the other DFCSS directors who felt I should side with them so the Society had a united front on the board

 

.It was just impossible to keep things in-house,” remembered Stuart Murphy. “In football, people want to be the first to tell everyone else what’s happening, whether it’s about transfers or finances or anything else. There was an immaturity about a lot of decision making in that sense. Then there were the more malicious leaks where people were deliberately trying to damage the Society. Some were true, others just outright fabrications. Things appeared on websites and social media that you couldn’t believe.

 

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8 hours ago, oaksoft said:

That is a horrific read and with only a small number of years to go we are going to have to deal with it head-on.

There will be those who claim it won't happen to Saints but we have seen the damage someone like LPM can do. On the other side we have guys like bazil85. I know neither has said they are interested but they provide a useful example of what we must avoid at all costs. Neither is capable of compromise. One won't say anything supportive of the club and the other won't say anything critical. Both will mislead, change goalposts and spread lies to win their arguments. Both cannot be trusted to work in team environments.

Neither of these two types of people can be allowed to get anywhere near a boardroom of any description, let alone our club board. It only requires a couple of people like that, one on either side, and fan ownership at our club will collapse. There will be internal warfare as two people who don't understand the meaning of compromise dig in, attracting their own lieutenants and creating an ideological civil war.

Are we all absolutely certain nobody of this type wwill find their way into a powerful position after BTB completes? It's my worst nightmare that we end up attracting that calibre of candidate and that this will all end very badly in all likelihood unless some people with a verifiable track record of business success and working at board level put their names forward.

Personally, I think it might be better if the club stayed in Gordon's hands but I'm still open to persuasion on fan ownership.

It's a cautionary tale and we'd do well to think very hard about it whilst we have time.

I'd challenge you to highlight one word of LPM's comments on his time in the SMISA committee that is untrue.  One word will do.  Much of what he has written on here has been corroborated by others.  You might not agree with his output on other matters and that is fine, but when it comes to the SMISA committee it is all true.

 

AS for Bazil-you named that tune in 1

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20 minutes ago, Kombibuddie said:


 


Paisley is big enough for an SPL team and
Greenock is big enough for a championship team.

The carnage that will ensue when SMISA is the owner of The Club will be with those members who have mistakenly thought, their ££'s will give them influence on sll St Mirren matters.

GLS has my vote to remain chairman (if he stands for it) but I wish he'd keep the family stand for St Mirren fans & put an end to rangers & celtic getting 2 stands.

Other than that, the fella can crack on for as long as he likes.
 

I'd be more than happy for him to remain, he's done a great job IMO and bar the appointment of Stubbs and Jackson, I would struggle to fault his leadership. 

You will get a few Muppet fans but like I say, no more or less than any other fan owned club. 

 

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11 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

I'd challenge you to highlight one word of LPM's comments on his time in the SMISA committee that is untrue.  One word will do.  Much of what he has written on here has been corroborated by others.  You might not agree with his output on other matters and that is fine, but when it comes to the SMISA committee it is all true.

 

AS for Bazil-you named that tune in 1

Hit send a wee bit early here but here are some of the recent lies/ baffling claims from LPM. He loves a mind game and dance about his time on the committee, it’s clear he has a vendetta against the club now but the below IMO is a very clear indication he probably lied continuously in that position. I bet they were delighted to get shot of him:

His claim that SMISA are doing something illegal

SMISA using ring fence funds should have went through a members resolution

Paying members should not be given the democratic right to vote on lending £50k to buy a new pitch at Ralston

Voting yes to said £50k is ‘stealing’

GLS called people on BAWA ‘idiots on a forum’

SMISA don’t proactively engage with members

There are countless examples of lies and unfounded drivel from him on many subjects on BAWA, BTB is but one.

 

Edited by bazil85

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39 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

Some of this looks horribly familiar and even more horribly prophetic

 

 

two years in which attempts by the Dundee FC Supporters’ Society to stabilise the club following its latest flirtation with extinction were undermined by leaks, briefings, factionalism, boardroom wrangling, proxy wars and events elsewhere.

 we didn’t have the right people involved,” said Stuart Murphy, who was appointed club chairman when DFCSS became majority shareholders. “With the situation the club was in it could have never been anything other than a holding shop.

there were big personalities involved,” he said. “X couldn’t get along with Y. Z couldn’t get along with Y. There was tension between the CEO, DBBT and the DFCSS guys. There was tension between myself and the other DFCSS directors who felt I should side with them so the Society had a united front on the board

 

.It was just impossible to keep things in-house,” remembered Stuart Murphy. “In football, people want to be the first to tell everyone else what’s happening, whether it’s about transfers or finances or anything else. There was an immaturity about a lot of decision making in that sense. Then there were the more malicious leaks where people were deliberately trying to damage the Society. Some were true, others just outright fabrications. Things appeared on websites and social media that you couldn’t believe.

 

 

I think that is the big danger but IMO where Dundee might end up is worse. I guess you have to have a SMFC BoD with the equivalent of TF and 3/4 SMiSA members who could be trusted to be confidential.

IIRC scoop1987 :whistle posted some pretty inflammatory stuff on here back in the day..........................

Edited by Bud the Baker

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1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

Hit send a wee bit early here but here are some of the recent lies/ baffling claims from LPM. He loves a mind game and dance about his time on the committee, it’s clear he has a vendetta against the club now but the below IMO is a very clear indication he probably lied continuously in that position. I bet they were delighted to get shot of him:

His claim that SMISA are doing something illegal

SMISA using ring fence funds should have went through a members resolution

Paying members should not be given the democratic right to vote on lending £50k to buy a new pitch at Ralston

Voting yes to said £50k is ‘stealing’

GLS called people on BAWA ‘idiots on a forum’

SMISA don’t proactively engage with members

There are countless examples of lies and unfounded drivel from him on many subjects on BAWA, BTB is but one.

 

So

Instead of providing one substantial piece of evidence that he lied about the workings of SMISA when he was on the committee, you just launch in with a personal attack.

 

You are a prime example of how fans using other people's money to live their dream of running a football clubshould not be anywher near a boardrom.

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2 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

So

Instead of providing one substantial piece of evidence that he lied about the workings of SMISA when he was on the committee, you just launch in with a personal attack.

 

You are a prime example of how fans using other people's money to live their dream of running a football clubshould not be anywher near a boardrom.

And how would we do that? The only way that would be possible is to have access to the minutes or to have been there in person. I clearly stated he plays mind games and dances around what was said at these meetings, anyone on this chat can see that. 

What I did do is provide undeniable evidence of multiple lies on here that anyone can go back and check. That isn't a personal attack, it is fact. 

But you like Oak before you has made a disrespectful and unfounded claim about the kind of person I am. You seem to think having only the most negative of people involved in running our club will do. Again I have no interest in being near our boardroom but you have zero basis for how I or practically anyone else on here would perform. 

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10 hours ago, oaksoft said:

That is a horrific read and with only a small number of years to go we are going to have to deal with it head-on.

There will be those who claim it won't happen to Saints but we have seen the damage someone like LPM can do. On the other side we have guys like bazil85. I know neither has said they are interested but they provide a useful example of what we must avoid at all costs. Neither is capable of compromise. One won't say anything supportive of the club and the other won't say anything critical. Both will mislead, change goalposts and spread lies to win their arguments. Both cannot be trusted to work in team environments.

Neither of these two types of people can be allowed to get anywhere near a boardroom of any description, let alone our club board. It only requires a couple of people like that, one on either side, and fan ownership at our club will collapse. There will be internal warfare as two people who don't understand the meaning of compromise dig in, attracting their own lieutenants and creating an ideological civil war.

Are we all absolutely certain nobody of this type wwill find their way into a powerful position after BTB completes? It's my worst nightmare that we end up attracting that calibre of candidate and that this will all end very badly in all likelihood unless some people with a verifiable track record of business success and working at board level put their names forward.

Personally, I think it might be better if the club stayed in Gordon's hands but I'm still open to persuasion on fan ownership.

It's a cautionary tale and we'd do well to think very hard about it whilst we have time.

I'm under the impression things will run as they are maybe with a vote for chairman and one SMISA member on the board. The whole point of fan ownership is to stop any dodgy person or group taking the club over not for the boardroom room to be full of random supporters. Am I wrong ? 

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Dundee haven't exactly been doing much better financially over the last few years under their American owners (who I seem to recall were interested in Saints at one point) rather than fan ownership.

A loss of more than £750,000 in the past two seasons and that's after raking in more than £1million in player sales! I appreciate we've not exactly posted impressive financial results after the player sales of the last few years but we're nowhere near as bad as that.

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Paisley is big enough for an SPL team and
Greenock is big enough for a championship team.

The carnage that will ensue when SMISA is the owner of The Club will be with those members who have mistakenly thought, their ££'s will give them influence on sll St Mirren matters.

GLS has my vote to remain chairman (if he stands for it) but I wish he'd keep the family stand for St Mirren fans & put an end to rangers & celtic getting 2 stands.

Other than that, the fella can crack on for as long as he likes.

The 2nd paragraph has always been a concern of mine. Those who bought into BtB/smisa will eventually have approx a 1200 or 1300th share in 67% of the club. Like you I think a fair number in the 1200 odd think they will have a major voice in running the club.

As for GLS, I've disagreed with some of his decisions as chairman but it's his money and risk.
Not sure he'll be so keen on the hassle once it's 'democratic' rather than 'autocratic'.

Fan ownership is great in theory, but not really in practice. In Germany I think it 51% fan ownership which might be a more workable model?

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3 hours ago, beyond our ken said:

I'd challenge you to highlight one word of LPM's comments on his time in the SMISA committee that is untrue.  One word will do.  Much of what he has written on here has been corroborated by others.  You might not agree with his output on other matters and that is fine, but when it comes to the SMISA committee it is all true.

 

AS for Bazil-you named that tune in 1

I made no mention of SMISA in my post so I'm not sure what you are getting at there.

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1 hour ago, bazil85 said:

But you like Oak before you has made a disrespectful and unfounded claim about the kind of person I am. You seem to think having only the most negative of people involved in running our club will do.

When you post deliberate misrepresentations of what I have said like this, I know exactly what type of person you are.

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