Big Boris, Our Prime Minister

[DougJamie]

13 minutes ago, FTOF said:

In many individuals opinions the SNP's stance is putting the country -Scotland- first.

 

Mate, after all this 52/48- 45/55 pish

 

Be good if SNP actually showed a majority as in This Country

 

[DougJamie]

44 minutes ago, beyond our ken said:

he has done the square root of sod all to set the scene for the future economic agreement, in fact it seems that he has taken that stuff out of the withdrawal agreement so we will be wrangling for years on workers rights, standards alignments and a whole lot more.  Unless, of course, he intends to just take his withdrawal agreement as a deal in name only and just walk away from the stuff that helps make our current lives what they are.

So, it really depends on how you define "played this well".  i tend to think that selling out the UK people and taking it up the rump from Europe on Ireland just to get his deal through and please his friends is playing things badly.

our lives, prospects and future prospects for our children look considerably worse under this deal, so you knock yourself out congratulating him on this derogation of the May deal and changing your life for the worse forever.

I am not jumping for joy trust me

 

However our "Opposition Parties" have done even less in grasping the opportunity to get shot of the Tories- Jo Swinson with her " build a statue to Maggie, Corbyn with his changing his mind and principles like the weather, and Sturgeon with his her delusional rantings of a united Scotland v Baaaad England  .

 

In our past when the Gov was shit you voted them out, it was like getting a new manager ( bar us) you got a bounce. The opposition is a far scarier prospect as none of them have any policies apart from they hate the Tories

So- House of Cards- Boris has played this well *( not saying that well is good for us)

[DougJamie]

2 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Boris has indeed played it well. If the EU are happy with the deal it means it’s probably a shit deal on the UK end. Ideally for Boris this gets rejected, meaning he can say “you had the offer and said no” and then smash forward with his No Deal wish. He has certainly played this very well. He comes off well, the Tories look good to the Leave voters and job done.

As for the SNP, they are completely right to call it unfair. NI, Wales and England get what they want. Meanwhile, Scotland who voted clearly to remain, having been promised in 2014 a No vote was the only way to guarantee remaining in the EU, have been severely shafted and treated like shit, ignored at every turn. I’m glad the SNP are standing up for this, because none of the others give a damn. Without the SNP we’d be bending over to Westminster at every moment, at least the SNP try to challenge that.

However, there are other reasons why Scots should be angry.

2014 - “The only way to stay in the EU is to vote No to independence and stay in the UK”

2016 - 62% of Scots vote to stay in the EU. It’s a clear indication of what the Scots want.

These two combined show exactly why Scotland should be angry at being dragged out of the EU. They clearly voted their intention to stay in the EU. They were also told and promised that a No vote would be the only guarantee to stay in the EU.

That No vote and that promise have not been followed through with. The clear will to stay in the EU should have been respected on top of that promise. That’s why there is anger, and that’s why this is completely unacceptable.

I buy part of this Cornwall however -

The Scots bottled it in 2014 because they believed the shit that was peddled, they were so easily swayed. In 2016 wiser they voted to remain, however lets not forget 1 million Scots voted Leave 

BUT Scotland is still part of the UK and has been for over 300 years, so its totally irrelevant what we voted, it might not be fair, but hey life isn't really.

Boris had a big Bus He now is PM, and has a deal, Lab by the nuts , and will never agree to Indy to unless its 65/35- Lessons learned by a divided Brexit...………..

 

If the SNP really want Tories out, they should disband and tell everyone to vote Lab, now that will mean the Tories leave, however that's not going to happen because the Nats want Indy. Fine , but its not going to happen. They had a chance in 2015 with 56 MPs, they should have done a Sin Fein , not recognised Westminster... Indy is never easy and certainly never achieved at a ballot box with a wee set of plans...……….  

Fact is we have the Tories because we have the Nats. Lab used to control 50 seats up here. The Tories must love the Nats

Edited October 18, 2019 by DougJamie

[salmonbuddie]

Oh FFS [emoji1787]

What's your point, oaky? NI is getting what Scotland asked for three years ago. We were told then it wasn't possible, now it is.

For anyone hard of remembering, this was when Corbyn said it couldn't be done because Scotland would need a separate legal system. At least the blue tories just lied.

[FTOF]

1 hour ago, DougJamie said:

I buy part of this Cornwall however -

The Scots bottled it in 2014 because they believed the shit that was peddled, they were so easily swayed. In 2016 wiser they voted to remain, however lets not forget 1 million Scots voted Leave 

BUT Scotland is still part of the UK and has been for over 300 years, so its totally irrelevant what we voted, it might not be fair, but hey life isn't really.

Boris had a big Bus He now is PM, and has a deal, Lab by the nuts , and will never agree to Indy to unless its 65/35- Lessons learned by a divided Brexit...………..

 

If the SNP really want Tories out, they should disband and tell everyone to vote Lab, now that will mean the Tories leave, however that's not going to happen because the Nats want Indy. Fine , but its not going to happen. They had a chance in 2015 with 56 MPs, they should have done a Sin Fein , not recognised Westminster... Indy is never easy and certainly never achieved at a ballot box with a wee set of plans...……….  

Fact is we have the Tories because we have the Nats. Lab used to control 50 seats up here. The Tories must love the Nats

What a crock of shite.

 

[Cornwall_Saint]

2 hours ago, DougJamie said:

I buy part of this Cornwall however -

The Scots bottled it in 2014 because they believed the shit that was peddled, they were so easily swayed. In 2016 wiser they voted to remain, however lets not forget 1 million Scots voted Leave 

BUT Scotland is still part of the UK and has been for over 300 years, so its totally irrelevant what we voted, it might not be fair, but hey life isn't really.

Boris had a big Bus He now is PM, and has a deal, Lab by the nuts , and will never agree to Indy to unless its 65/35- Lessons learned by a divided Brexit...………..

 

If the SNP really want Tories out, they should disband and tell everyone to vote Lab, now that will mean the Tories leave, however that's not going to happen because the Nats want Indy. Fine , but its not going to happen. They had a chance in 2015 with 56 MPs, they should have done a Sin Fein , not recognised Westminster... Indy is never easy and certainly never achieved at a ballot box with a wee set of plans...……….  

Fact is we have the Tories because we have the Nats. Lab used to control 50 seats up here. The Tories must love the Nats

The 1 million Scots who voted leave still only equate to 38%. If we are using random numbers we can quote the 16+ million who voted remain, the 5m EU citizens who were denied a vote, etc. I do agree too many Scots bottled Indyref, and believing any promise from the Better Together campaign was plain stupidity as the rest of us knew they would never deliver.

I’m not really sure where you’re going with the Labour/SNP thing. A non-existent SNP doesn’t necessarily mean they’d vote for Labour instead. Indeed (while I actually like Corbyn) if I could vote in a GE and I was down here instead of Scotland, I’d be voting Greens, not Labour. Labour died in Scotland under Miliband, it said a lot when even Jo Lamont said “we are just a branch office” shortly after Indyref.

I disagree with the Sinn Fein policy of not turning up. It means you can’t complain when an awful policy is foisted on you that was only won by a narrow margin, a margin which your party could have turned the tide with. While we are stuck as part of the Westminster establishment, it’s better to try and create change within - that’s why people vote SNP for Westminster, to try and give Scotland a bigger say instead of voting for a supposedly Scottish party who has its headquarters in London.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

London has a population of nearly 9m, Scotland less than 6.
london also has a mayoral system of governance, a tax regime and simply a different legal system to Scotland...  my point still stands.
All parts of the UK were subjected to the same unwanted referendum.
there is no logical reason to continually blame London for Brexit when so many Scots, IN SCOTLAND, voted leave.

London has the same government, tax and legal system as the rest of England. I've not noticed anyone blaming London. Size isn't everything BTW. [emoji6]

[Guest TPAFKATS]

Mate, after all this 52/48- 45/55 pish
 
Be good if SNP actually showed a majority as in This Country
 

Maybe it's just me, but can you expand on the point you are making here?

[Guest TPAFKATS]

A million Scots DID vote Leave though and that made a huge difference when looking at the 17.4 million.
I know you want to overlook that inconvenient fact but it doesn't change what happened.

Im not overlooking it, it's just that in a binary vote an outcome of 62% to 38% is pretty much definitive.
If we need to take account of the 1m Scots who voted leave then we need to take account of the 16m who voted remain across UK.
Where does it end?
1m out of 17.4m isn't a huge difference either, it's less than 6%.
We now have NI being offered a remain deal that they voted for, with the economic advantages of remaining in eu customs Union and having a different vat rate than rest of UK - something Scotland was denied in Smith commission.

[Cornwall_Saint]

29 minutes ago, Long John Baldy said:

I really shouldn't get involved in this never ending thread but who do you think you are telling people they are stupid and you are, according to you, much better?

It really butters my nuts when this line, or similar, is thrown out.

No matter what you, or I believe, or want, to write off the majority as stupid because it goes against your desire is, well, stupid in the extreme.

By all means state your reasons but shut the f**k up about other people intelligence.

Oh, you don't even live in Scotland, thanks for telling us what to do. 

Excuse my language, somethings just push my buttons. 

Maybe you should learn how to read. I didn’t say that, did I?

I said:

”believing any promise from the Better Together campaign was plain stupidity as the rest of us knew they would never deliver”

I wasn’t calling all No voters stupid, as some would have voted No regardless of what Better Together were doing. Some had their heart set on No before anything was even discussed, in which Better Together wouldn’t have mattered. Likewise, a Yes voter could also have believed these promises but felt Independence was still better.

Maybe try reading properly next time.

I don’t live in Scotland, therefore I can’t care or want to know what’s going on there? I still consider myself Scottish (and Belgian), that doesn’t change because I move.

[salmonbuddie]

Aye, reading isn't my strong point, but neither is some punter that's not even prepared to live in Scotland get to tell me I bottled my vote, ok? 

Fair enough, I guess antrin is next in line for this hairdryer treatment then? He doesn't live in Scotland either.

[salmonbuddie]

Ha ha mate.
No idea about whoever he is, suppose it depends on someone telling me I'm something when they know nothing about me or my reasons.
Anyhow I try to stay out of long running stuff, gets boring and generally leads nowhere. 

I've got no issue with anyone from anywhere offering an opinion. When they think they should be allowed a vote, however...

Sits back and reaches for popcorn.

[emoji846]

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You also said voters bottled it.
You clearly implied no voters were stupid for believing promises.
The rest of us? Are you implying you are of a higher intellect and there should be some IQ test before people can vote? 
Aye, reading isn't my strong point, but neither is some punter that's not even prepared to live in Scotland get to tell me I bottled my vote, ok? 

Some people did bottle it.
Some believed the scare stories that they would lose their pension if they voted for independence.

I'm sure some bottled it with brexit vote as well.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

I'm sure loads of tories said similar. I know a lot of their Scottish MPs did

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, Long John Baldy said:

People are more than entitled to have a view bit, as you can see, I detest people putting people down because it doesn't stack up with their beliefs.

I'll grab some popcorn right now, off to work.

Hi ho. 

You are witnessing the nonsensical moral high ground grabbing shite from the usual suspects that I have been repeatedly railing against on this forum.

[antrin]

5 hours ago, TPAFKATS said:

Im not overlooking it, it's just that in a binary vote an outcome of 62% to 38% is pretty much definitive.
If we need to take account of the 1m Scots who voted leave then we need to take account of the 16m who voted remain across UK.
Where does it end?
1m out of 17.4m isn't a huge difference either, it's less than 6%.
We now have NI being offered a remain deal that they voted for, with the economic advantages of remaining in eu customs Union and having a different vat rate than rest of UK - something Scotland was denied in Smith commission.

The difference the million Scottish votes could have made is...

... a reversal of the result.  A million less brexit and a million more remain.  And THAT would be quite definitive, quite a huge difference.

4 hours ago, Long John Baldy said:

Ha ha mate.

No idea about whoever he is, suppose it depends on someone telling me I'm something when they know nothing about me or my reasons.

Anyhow I try to stay out of long running stuff, gets boring and generally leads nowhere. 

I quite like running.  Try to do it every day.  Never get bored.  

[oaksoft]

17 hours ago, salmonbuddie said:

What's your point, oaky? NI is getting what Scotland asked for three years ago. We were told then it wasn't possible, now it is.

For anyone hard of remembering, this was when Corbyn said it couldn't be done because Scotland would need a separate legal system. At least the blue tories just lied.

The point is that we didn't vote as 4 separate countries so your logical argument is completely invalid.

We voted as the UK. That's not semantics or a matter of opinion. It is a matter of solid fact. We are not yet an independent country.

It is certainly interesting that the voters in Scotland were resoundingly pro-Remain but in the context of a UK vote it is meaningless to make the argument you are making.

[oaksoft]

13 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Please show the quote where I claim I am of higher intellect.

Please show the quote which says I said there should be an IQ test before allowing people to vote.

I look forward to seeing these quotes.

And yes, some (that’s the key word there, SOME) No voters did bottle it. That part is true. Most likely in the range of those who were 50/50 as to which way to go, but were scared of the possible changes to come for voting Yes when they already knew what they had with No. At no point did I say it was a majority of No voters, nor did I even say it was those who were 100% No all the way, of course they haven’t bottled it because they knew exactly what they wanted to begin with.

Your last comment shows you up as a c**t. You can quote me on that all f**king day. If it wasn’t for my kids I would already have moved back to Scotland or Belgium, but I’m not going to abandon my two boys just so I have permission to discuss something with cunts like you.

I don't really want to get involved in someone elses fight here but you are both crossing a line.

You really have no right to accuse people who voted against your belief as stupid or cowards. LBJ has no right to take issue with where you live.

Any chance we could tone down the language a bit guys? There's no need for any of this.

[oaksoft]

Got a sneaky feeling the vote is going the way of Boris this afternoon.

Reports on the BBC suggest he might have 319 votes pledged with a handful of Tories yet to commit and enough Labour votes to make up for the DUP.

Fair play to him if he achieves this. A week ago I just couldn't see how he could have managed to get a deal from the EU and then get it through Parliament.

The only potential fly is the fear that Brexiteers will support this today but reject it at final reading to force a No Deal Brexit at the last second with no time to avoid it.

[Guest TPAFKATS]

The point is that we didn't vote as 4 separate countries so your logical argument is completely invalid.
We voted as the UK. That's not semantics or a matter of opinion. It is a matter of solid fact. We are not yet an independent country.
It is certainly interesting that the voters in Scotland were resoundingly pro-Remain but in the context of a UK vote it is meaningless to make the argument you are making.

We are however a union of 4 nations. We now have one of those nations being given a deferent from the other 3 anscscotland being told it can't have the same
We are told it's an equal union, it just appears that some are more equal than others

[Guest TPAFKATS]

You could choose any random one million leave voters and say they would have the difference.

I quite like running.  Try to do it every day.  Never get bored.  [emoji4]

 

[salmonbuddie]

The point is that we didn't vote as 4 separate countries so your logical argument is completely invalid.
We voted as the UK. That's not semantics or a matter of opinion. It is a matter of solid fact. We are not yet an independent country.
It is certainly interesting that the voters in Scotland were resoundingly pro-Remain but in the context of a UK vote it is meaningless to make the argument you are making.

I get the impression you're being deliberately obtuse here. My point is not that at all, my point is that one part of this "United" Kingdom is getting the same thing Scotland asked for three years ago but was told couldn't be done.

[oaksoft]

16 minutes ago, salmonbuddie said:

 

 

I get the impression you're being deliberately obtuse here. My point is not that at all, my point is that one part of this "United" Kingdom is getting the same thing Scotland asked for three years ago but was told couldn't be done.

 

We don't have a land border with another country which will remain in the EU though.

Even if we did, we don't have the potential for the return of violence and terrorism to contend with.

It's a completely different situation.

The argument about "we were told three years ago we couldn't have this ......" is one I have no time for at all.

Things change. Compromise is a necessity of life.

Apart from anything else, I thought Brexit was good for the Indy movement?

But now it's bad?

Fancy making up your mind?

Edited October 19, 2019 by oaksoft

[oaksoft]

23 minutes ago, TPAFKATS said:

We are however a union of 4 nations. 

Yes we are. And that union voted to Leave.

I'm not commenting on Northern Ireland because like everyone else, I have no idea what Johnson has agreed with the EU and personally I'm not that interested. I think leaving the EU is a terrible idea but that's what we voted for and it looks like that's what we are getting. I hope we can still scrap article 50 but if we leave then we leave. We just get on with it.

[salmonbuddie]

We don't have a land border with another country which will remain in the EU though.
Even if we did, we don't have the potential for the return of violence and terrorism to contend with.
It's a completely different situation.
The argument about "we were told three years ago we couldn't have this ......" is one I have no time for at all.
Things change. Compromise is a necessity of life.
Apart from anything else, I thought Brexit was good for the Indy movement?
But now it's bad?
Fancy making up your mind?

I will if you will, is it one United Kingdom or can we have separate deals for separate parts, make your mind up. You've claimed both are happening at the same time, Schrodinger's Brexit maybe?

The land border thing is irrelevant, look at Switzerland or Norway, they seem to manage.

Brexit makes indy inevitable, imo, so from that perspective it suits me. The politics demands that the SNP does what it's doing and says what it's saying. Doesn't mean indy isn't the eventual aim.