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Big Boris, Our Prime Minister


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25 minutes ago, Doakes said:

I think the biggest takeaway from this (and the Scottish indyref) is that referendums are overly divisive. Horrible way to run things. Surely there's a better way to run our society than bickering over shite like this 

Divisiveness is not really the issue.

I think that with all these things you get the 10%-ers on both sides who simply can't tolerate the idea that someone else might have an opposing view. That set of extremists don't represent mainstream society, the vast majority of whom are happy to have an opinion, express it in a vote and then move on. It's that set of extremists who are causing the problem - not the referenda themselves.

You don't solve that problem by shutting down democratic processes. You solve it by shutting out the extremists and leaving them to witter amongst themselves. Leave the Remainers to talk amongst themselves about liars, idiots and bigots. Leave the Brexiteers to talk amongst themselves about traitors etc. Both sets of people are just not worth engaging with.

 

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48 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Divisiveness is not really the issue.

I think that with all these things you get the 10%-ers on both sides who simply can't tolerate the idea that someone else might have an opposing view. That set of extremists don't represent mainstream society, the vast majority of whom are happy to have an opinion, express it in a vote and then move on. It's that set of extremists who are causing the problem - not the referenda themselves.

You don't solve that problem by shutting down democratic processes. You solve it by shutting out the extremists and leaving them to witter amongst themselves. Leave the Remainers to talk amongst themselves about liars, idiots and bigots. Leave the Brexiteers to talk amongst themselves about traitors etc. Both sets of people are just not worth engaging with.

 

I get what you're saying about extreme views, but "Brexit" is essentially the result of an internal conflict within the Conservative Party, it won't settle anything, even if it happens, or doesn't happen

Asking a closed question during what should have been an open public debate was a ridiculous concept, it will only lead to further conflicts and questions off the back of it

Not sure what the answer is, but surely in an age where everyone can be connected within seconds, we could conduct our debates a lot better than "leave or remain" / "yes or no"

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On ‎10‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 9:30 AM, oaksoft said:

It's entirely relevant.

If Scots had wanted to make our own decision regarding EU membership as a  separate country we would have voted for Independence in 2014. We didn't and therefore accepted that our voice would be a UK voice come the EU referendum.

 

 

Perhaps if they had know such a think were coming they would have.

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1 hour ago, Doakes said:

I get what you're saying about extreme views, but "Brexit" is essentially the result of an internal conflict within the Conservative Party, it won't settle anything, even if it happens, or doesn't happen

Asking a closed question during what should have been an open public debate was a ridiculous concept, it will only lead to further conflicts and questions off the back of it

Not sure what the answer is, but surely in an age where everyone can be connected within seconds, we could conduct our debates a lot better than "leave or remain" / "yes or no"

Actually I think it was high time that the electorate had a say in whether we remained in the EU or not.

Given the vast change in our relationship with the EU since the previous referendum in the 70's, I think that was entirely correct and democratic.

I do think that there should have been a second question to determine what form of Brexit people wanted had we voted to Leave - the best deal we could negotiate or No Deal. That at least would have stopped this nonsensical idea that people didn't know what Leave they were voting for.

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On 10/20/2019 at 11:01 AM, oaksoft said:

It's pretty simple really.

They want to honour the referendum result and they are now satisfied that this deal is as good as they are going to get from the EU. They didn't feel that way about May's deal. Given that there is no other Brexit alternative other than a No Deal they'll vote for the best Brexit they can. This is it in their opinion. None of them want a second referendum because they believe the electorate has spoken. They are correct in that regard, however those of us who want to Remain in the EU feel about that.

A VONC will almost certainly fail now because of that.

I hate to say it but it's looking like we're leaving and it looks very much like that will be this month. Even if the EU grant an extension, that can be cut short if Boris gets his act together before Oct 31st and I'm convinced he'll do so.

A substantial amount of MP's voted for this deal to tear it apart and/or add addendums to it to the extent it becomes an entirely different beast. That's why there was a majority stopping it from being railroaded through. Mogg and co have since proven themselves to be petulant, duplicitous buffoons.

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I've dealt with this daft notion, that we didn't know there was an EU referendum, above.

Why people insist on trying to rewrite history is beyond me.

No you haven't..At the time. It was mooted as a possibility in a speech. It wasn't tory party policy. There was a private members bill in 2013 which was thrown out early 2014 therefore the Scottish people had a right to believe the lies about the EU debate at that time and it certainly had impact on the result. AND. Even that was about  accepting a renegotiation of the UK's terms. As has been said. IF it had been a definite then the YES campaigners would have jumped on the daft statement that the ONLY way to remain in the EU was to vote NO. What don't you get?

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I've dealt with this daft notion, that we didn't know there was an EU referendum, above.

Why people insist on trying to rewrite history is beyond me.

I know there isn’t much point going back and forth here, but that really isn’t true. There was no date, no year, no plan set about an EU referendum when we had Indyref. Nothing was set until after the 2015 election.

All some know about was a vague mention of it by Cameron in 2013. It was not at the forefront of anything until Cameron realised the serious threat of UKIP and plastered it over the Conservative manifesto.

It was not all over the media in 2014, and as stated elsewhere it would have been the obvious counter to the massive “Vote No to stay in EU” claim. All the discussions that were EU related were about Scotland forcing itself out of the EU with independence, and about how we’d have to re-apply if we wanted to stay in. There was nothing about Cameron’s vague 2013 comment.

We are not trying to rewrite history. We are simply pointing out that the EU referendum was nowhere near being on the cards until the run-up to the 2015 election, small mentions of it beforehand were not overly relevant as a lot had to happen before the EU referendum was going to take place.

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16 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

I know there isn’t much point going back and forth here, but that really isn’t true. There was no date, no year, no plan set about an EU referendum when we had Indyref. Nothing was set until after the 2015 election.

All some know about was a vague mention of it by Cameron in 2013. It was not at the forefront of anything until Cameron realised the serious threat of UKIP and plastered it over the Conservative manifesto.

It was not all over the media in 2014, and as stated elsewhere it would have been the obvious counter to the massive “Vote No to stay in EU” claim. All the discussions that were EU related were about Scotland forcing itself out of the EU with independence, and about how we’d have to re-apply if we wanted to stay in. There was nothing about Cameron’s vague 2013 comment.

We are not trying to rewrite history. We are simply pointing out that the EU referendum was nowhere near being on the cards until the run-up to the 2015 election, small mentions of it beforehand were not overly relevant as a lot had to happen before the EU referendum was going to take place.

Did you open and read the link I gave you to Cameron's announcement.

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16 hours ago, stlucifer said:

No you haven't..At the time. It was mooted as a possibility in a speech. It wasn't tory party policy. There was a private members bill in 2013 which was thrown out early 2014 therefore the Scottish people had a right to believe the lies about the EU debate at that time and it certainly had impact on the result. AND. Even that was about  accepting a renegotiation of the UK's terms. As has been said. IF it had been a definite then the YES campaigners would have jumped on the daft statement that the ONLY way to remain in the EU was to vote NO. What don't you get?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21148282

 

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1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Did you open and read the link I gave you to Cameron's announcement.

Announcing it in 2013 as going on the 2015 manifesto is not the same as guaranteeing one will take place.

It still came down to the Conservatives winning an election majority (as coalition partners at the time Lib Dem wouldn’t support it), something which was not guaranteed. If the Tories didn’t go on to take a majority the whole thing may never have happened.

Indeed all the polls in the run up to the election suggested another hung parliament, and that would have meant the Tories relying on UKIP to push them over the line, an unlikely scenario. Even the exit polls only had the Tories on 314 seats IIRC.

This whole EU referendum was dependent on a Tory majority that wasn’t expected to happen. That’s why it wasn’t overly relevant in 2014.

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Guest TPAFKATS
Announcing it in 2013 as going on the 2015 manifesto is not the same as guaranteeing one will take place.
It still came down to the Conservatives winning an election majority (as coalition partners at the time Lib Dem wouldn’t support it), something which was not guaranteed. If the Tories didn’t go on to take a majority the whole thing may never have happened.
Indeed all the polls in the run up to the election suggested another hung parliament, and that would have meant the Tories relying on UKIP to push them over the line, an unlikely scenario. Even the exit polls only had the Tories on 314 seats IIRC.
This whole EU referendum was dependent on a Tory majority that wasn’t expected to happen. That’s why it wasn’t overly relevant in 2014.
Indeed. Add to this that the lib dems had a policy demanding a referendum on leaving EU and had a failed vote on it in Parliament during 2008.
During their time in coalition they were against it.
Now their policy is to remain without a Referendum. Or at least it was a week or two ago.
Of course they would need to win an election for this. [emoji1]
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3 hours ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Announcing it in 2013 as going on the 2015 manifesto is not the same as guaranteeing one will take place.

It still came down to the Conservatives winning an election majority (as coalition partners at the time Lib Dem wouldn’t support it), something which was not guaranteed. If the Tories didn’t go on to take a majority the whole thing may never have happened.

Indeed all the polls in the run up to the election suggested another hung parliament, and that would have meant the Tories relying on UKIP to push them over the line, an unlikely scenario. Even the exit polls only had the Tories on 314 seats IIRC.

This whole EU referendum was dependent on a Tory majority that wasn’t expected to happen. That’s why it wasn’t overly relevant in 2014.

I don't know what to say to you CS.

Maybe we hang around in different types of circles.

In 2014 we had No politicians saying "The only way to guarantee staying in the EU is to vote No".

We agree on that.

Where we disagree is that I find it completely inconceivable that an intelligent person would leave it at that without responding "Hang on. If the Tories win next year, we'll be having an EU referendum anyway within a couple of years and if we vote to leave we'll be out of the EU anyway". You seem to be suggesting that because the EU referendum car crash wasn't sitting right in front of our noses that it wasn't relevant to even consider it. To me it is utterly bizarre to not think ahead a little to see potential scenarios like that but if that's the thought process you had then fair enough. I can assure you that it was a very real possibility and plenty of people up here were talking about it even if you weren't.

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I don't know what to say to you CS.
Maybe we hang around in different types of circles.
In 2014 we had No politicians saying "The only way to guarantee staying in the EU is to vote No".
We agree on that.
Where we disagree is that I find it completely inconceivable that an intelligent person would leave it at that without responding "Hang on. If the Tories win next year, we'll be having an EU referendum anyway within a couple of years and if we vote to leave we'll be out of the EU anyway". You seem to be suggesting that because the EU referendum car crash wasn't sitting right in front of our noses that it wasn't relevant to even consider it. To me it is utterly bizarre to not think ahead a little to see potential scenarios like that but if that's the thought process you had then fair enough. I can assure you that it was a very real possibility and plenty of people up here were talking about it even if you weren't.
Sorry to butt in on this discourse but I think the you're both right if that helps, yes the mention of a referendum on EU membership was floated but it wasn't party policy for any mainstream party, the better together campaign were able to make this claim specifically because the French and Spanish stated that an independent Scotland would have to leave the EU and re-apply and may be refused. This was self interest of course because of Catalan and Basque claims. Both have now said that they would welcome an independent Scotland as circumstances have changed due to Brexit. Complaining now is a bit like complaining about the claim on the Brexit bus - it was lazy and partisan journalism that all claims in a campaign aren't necessarily tested.
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1 hour ago, stlucifer said:

WTF? Are you really so moronic you think this is clever?

Not very clever really, since they aren't running scared. In fact they want it sooner than the government do.

SNP - The party's leader at Westminster, Ian Blackford, said "we want an election but these terms are not acceptable," adding that the poll should take place earlier than the middle of December

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