Big Boris, Our Prime Minister

[DougJamie]

44 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 

You’re the nationalist and a Sevco apologist, so more your thing I guess.

And yet you're the one who goes on and on about them and post far right crap as above - You're in a big river in Africa pal

[DougJamie]

23 minutes ago, Doakes said:

So how would you describe yourself? A globalist? Would you object to sovereignty being more passed to Brussels in the future? If not, would you then a be a European Nationalist? 

Not having a pop, labeling like this has always confused me. You see folk use "nationalist" as some sort of dirty word. Personally wouldn't say I'm a nationalist, but I do believe in less government, and localisation of power

I am a patriot not a nationalist as such, however SNP do stand morally far above any other party bar the Greens. I think after the last 5 years we could all do with a lot less government

 

[Cornwall_Saint]

8 minutes ago, Doakes said:

There's a lot to unpack there

Is localisation the same as nationalism? Is globalisation the same as centralisation? Then of course, which is better for the population as a whole?

My view would be - you can be proud of where you're from without being a nationalist - nationalism to me would be putting people you live with first, at the expense of other nations. There's probably a happy medium to be found where countries/nations/regions agree to help each other without battling for supremacy. But that's probably an idealistic viewpoint  

Nationalism is a difficult term, usually associated with xenophobia and racism (such as the BNP). Most nationalist party types fall in these lines.

The SNP however are the polar opposite, being one of the few to stand up for immigrants, against racism and show themselves as a welcoming party. Sometimes it’s difficult to call them nationalist as they aren’t your typical nationalist party.

[St.Ricky]

5 minutes ago, Doakes said:

There's a lot to unpack there

Is localisation the same as nationalism? Is globalisation the same as centralisation? Then of course, which is better for the population as a whole?

My view would be - you can be proud of where you're from without being a nationalist - nationalism to me would be putting people you live with first, at the expense of other nations. There's probably a happy medium to be found where countries/nations/regions agree to help each other without battling for supremacy. But that's probably an idealistic viewpoint  

I don't equate localism with nationalism. Although at one level this is true but the best examples presently are found in the nordic countries where people have become more engaged, more decisions are taken locally etc. 

Globalisation at the time I looked at this was pan government. Other examples were the growth of trading and political blocs and the fall of others such as the soviet Union where power became more local. A time of upcoming turbulence that we now live in. 

[Doakes]

54 minutes ago, Cornwall_Saint said:

Nationalism is a difficult term, usually associated with xenophobia and racism (such as the BNP). Most nationalist party types fall in these lines.

The SNP however are the polar opposite, being one of the few to stand up for immigrants, against racism and show themselves as a welcoming party. Sometimes it’s difficult to call them nationalist as they aren’t your typical nationalist party.

I'd say its become a way to discredit someones argument, based on labeling them as something with a negative connotation...

Similar to this "cancel culture" phenomenon where if a person has said one thing that someone disagrees with in the past - everything they say in the future is then cancelled / not worth listening to.

It's a bit of a cheap way to "win" debates, without actually debating, if you ask me

[Russian Saint]

Some interesting stuff on that video.

[oaksoft]

1 hour ago, DougJamie said:

I am a patriot not a nationalist as such, however SNP do stand morally far above any other party bar the Greens. I think after the last 5 years we could all do with a lot less government

 

Oh for goodness sakes.

This is where the needless division comes in.

The idea that the SNP deeply care about you but the Tories and everyone else loath you is laughable.

This grubby grab for the moral high ground in politics is the stuff of school playgrounds. It treats voters like idiots.

[oaksoft]

50 minutes ago, Doakes said:

I'd say its become a way to discredit someones argument, based on labeling them as something with a negative connotation...

Similar to this "cancel culture" phenomenon where if a person has said one thing that someone disagrees with in the past - everything they say in the future is then cancelled / not worth listening to.

It's a bit of a cheap way to "win" debates, without actually debating, if you ask me

Agreed but it's also a very widespread tactic now thanks to the spread of social media.

A Tory who agrees with the bedroom tax for example (and there are PERFECTLY good reasons for doing so) is permanently labelled as "hating the poor" regardless of his reasons for agreeing with that policy or whatever else he does to help those less fortunate. On P & B, at least one poster is wittering on about the Tories "murdering poor people".  It is utterly depressing to hear "analysis" like that from supposedly intelligent humans.

The grabbing of the moral high ground thing (which DJ has just attempted to do) is embarrassing in it's infantility.

[beyond our ken]

30 minutes ago, Russian Saint said:

 

 

Some interesting stuff on that video.

 

got to 1 min 46 before the stink of bullshit filled the air

 

[Doakes]

15 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Agreed but it's also a very widespread tactic now thanks to the spread of social media.

A Tory who agrees with the bedroom tax for example (and there are PERFECTLY good reasons for doing so) is permanently labelled as "hating the poor" regardless of his reasons for agreeing with that policy or whatever else he does to help those less fortunate. On P & B, at least one poster is wittering on about the Tories "murdering poor people".  It is utterly depressing to hear "analysis" like that from supposedly intelligent humans.

The grabbing of the moral high ground thing (which DJ has just attempted to do) is embarrassing in it's infantility.

It's all very polarised. Its somewhat ironic that some on the so-called "left", are so keen to shut down, de-platform (online) and "cancel" opposing views to their own. Especially when you consider the definition of fascism. Which is weird to say as I'm pretty left leaning.

Holding the moral highground is all very well if you can back up your views with evidence - but if you're the type that just uses labels and cheap shots to "win", its not even worth holding a debate in the first place. 

[Ayrshire Saints]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Agreed but it's also a very widespread tactic now thanks to the spread of social media.

A Tory who agrees with the bedroom tax for example (and there are PERFECTLY good reasons for doing so) is permanently labelled as "hating the poor" regardless of his reasons for agreeing with that policy or whatever else he does to help those less fortunate. On P & B, at least one poster is wittering on about the Tories "murdering poor people".  It is utterly depressing to hear "analysis" like that from supposedly intelligent humans.

The grabbing of the moral high ground thing (which DJ has just attempted to do) is embarrassing in it's infantility.

I did analysis on the bedroom tax for a few LA's in Scotland before the Scot Govt mitigation and it would only have some merit had every LA in Scotland been able to offer every tenant a property to suit their requirements per the legislation. In that scenario if someone then chose to take on a larger house than they required then yes it had merit.  It turned out no LA I had worked with could get close to that criteria therefore it was a futile and punishing tax on many who could not be offered a suitable alternative and was rightly mitigated centrally.

[oaksoft]

7 minutes ago, Ayrshire Saints said:

I did analysis on the bedroom tax for a few LA's in Scotland before the Scot Govt mitigation and it would only have some merit had every LA in Scotland been able to offer every tenant a property to suit their requirements per the legislation. In that scenario if someone then chose to take on a larger house than they required then yes it had merit.  It turned out no LA I had worked with could get close to that criteria therefore it was a futile and punishing tax on many who could not be offered a suitable alternative and was rightly mitigated centrally.

The implementation difficulties is a separate discussion.

It's hard IMO to make a case for allowing people to stay in a scarce council home which is bigger than they need when families are crammed into flats. I find it very hard to believe that some kind of system to swap people around could not be conceived. Introducing financial incentives is certainly a perfectly good way of persuading people to move down and think of others.

This boils down to who you have more sympathy with - those who need to be moved from a home they've lived in for years or those struggling for space in cramped accomodation. Building more council houses is not the whole answer. This is a great example of a disagreement between left and right where the left climbs the moral high ground but the inconvenient truth is that both left and right are driven by a desire to help others.

[Russian Saint]

got to 1 min 46 before the stink of bullshit filled the air
 

Bullshit it may be chap, but at 2 min and 44 seconds it states the Mr Barnier and Mr Varadkar want the EU to block any new deal proposal by Mr B Johnson. Therefore a no deal Brexit will happen. Even if parliament vote to postpone the October 31st date the EU have the final say on that as well (going by the content of the video)

It’s strange when the likes of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown lend their weight to the remain campaign that people are supposed to sit up and believe everything they say, keeping in mind that they took us into an illegal war.
If Tony Blair told me it was raining outside, I’d look out the window.

[DougJamie]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

Oh for goodness sakes.

This is where the needless division comes in.

The idea that the SNP deeply care about you but the Tories and everyone else loath you is laughable.

This grubby grab for the moral high ground in politics is the stuff of school playgrounds. It treats voters like idiots.

Slight exaggeration on what I said, are you a Tory MP ?

The SNPs have a mandate, 63% of votes cast by PR, they work with parties, the didn't sign Article 50 unlike the 487 sheep, they don't change their minds every quarter

Majority of voters are idiots, 17.4m of them to be precise 

 

So don't worry- you're not alone

[oaksoft]

10 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

Slight exaggeration on what I said, are you a Tory MP ?

The SNPs have a mandate, 63% of votes cast by PR, they work with parties, the didn't sign Article 50 unlike the 487 sheep, they don't change their minds every quarter

Majority of voters are idiots, 17.4m of them to be precise 

 

So don't worry- you're not alone

Sigh!

 

Edited September 4, 2019 by oaksoft

[DougJamie]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Sigh!

I wish you made it a rule to stick to one word replies, this Forum would be far the wiser and happier without having to read your sanctimonious drivel...

[oaksoft]

2 minutes ago, DougJamie said:

I wish you made it a rule to stick to one word replies, this Forum would be far the wiser and happier without having to read your sanctimonious drivel...

I wonder how many of those people you are calling "idiots" were stupid enough to sign up to the Bears Den Rangers forum to troll their fans using your work email address?

There's a reason why you have your nickname on this forum.

Edited September 4, 2019 by oaksoft

[DougJamie]

8 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I wonder how many of those people you are calling "idiots" were stupid enough to sign up to the Bears Den Rangers forum to troll their fans using your work email address?

There's a reason why you have your nickname on this forum.

I see you cant even do one word answers without editing

I like my nickname- this should amuse even you

https://www.snotr.com/video/7882/Monty_Python_-_Village_Idiots

[Wendy Saintss]

And yet you're the one who goes on and on about them and post far right crap as above - You're in a big river in Africa pal

I go on about Sevco because I want to see them obliterated.

What far right crap do I post?

[Wendy Saintss]

Nationalism is a difficult term, usually associated with xenophobia and racism (such as the BNP). Most nationalist party types fall in these lines.
The SNP however are the polar opposite, being one of the few to stand up for immigrants, against racism and show themselves as a welcoming party. Sometimes it’s difficult to call them nationalist as they aren’t your typical nationalist party.

That’s because Scotland hasn’t had to deal with large scale immigration in recent times like in England and other countries in Europe.

It’s easy for them to be a welcoming party when immigration isn’t an issue.

But I don’t think we can kid ourselves. I keep hearing that Scotland voted to remain as if Scotland is some united country on the matter.

But the fact is that approx a third of Scotland voted to leave. In terms of actual number of votes cast, as many people in Scotland voted to leave as voted for the SNP in the Scottish Parliament elections.

I have no doubt that immigration was a big factor in that.

And the fact that Scottish football is dominated by 2 clubs whose business model is based on the exploitation of hatred of the last large influx of immigrants to Scotland shows that Scotland is not as welcoming as made out.

[DougJamie]

2 minutes ago, Wendy Saintss said:

 

 

I go on about Sevco because I want to see them obliterated.

What far right crap do I post?
 

 

So do I, and everything they stand for

 

And I know your were Winding Up on Far right but I need a retort

[Wendy Saintss]

The implementation difficulties is a separate discussion.

It's hard IMO to make a case for allowing people to stay in a scarce council home which is bigger than they need when families are crammed into flats. I find it very hard to believe that some kind of system to swap people around could not be conceived. Introducing financial incentives is certainly a perfectly good way of persuading people to move down and think of others.

This boils down to who you have more sympathy with - those who need to be moved from a home they've lived in for years or those struggling for space in cramped accomodation. Building more council houses is not the whole answer. This is a great example of a disagreement between left and right where the left climbs the moral high ground but the inconvenient truth is that both left and right are driven by a desire to help others.

 

But there just aren’t enough 1 bedroom properties to make the bedroom tax feasible.

 

It doesn’t really save the country any money and it just makes the Tories look nasty.

 

It’s ludicrous.

[StanleySaint]

Looking forward to see how Wales and locally (to me) Sunderland vote, have the turkeys seen the light and get the opportunity not to vote for Christmas after all?

[whydowebother]

I truly hope labour get pumped at every opportunity in the future

Political annihilation preferably

All power handed directly back to Brussels

FFS

[Ayrshire Saints]

People were moved and swapped where possible but there simply wasn't enough accommodation for one and two person households. I encountered very few cases of persons refusing to move to smaller accommodation that would have suited their needs. The vast majority of council housing in the areas I was working for were 2 and 3 bedroom, that's where the issues lay. The scenario you painted was pretty rare in my experience but that may well have been different in other parts of the UK. A classic example of a one size fits all policy that simply couldn't be made to work. Your right though that the ethos behind it had merit, it was just ill conceived.

The implementation difficulties is a separate discussion.
It's hard IMO to make a case for allowing people to stay in a scarce council home which is bigger than they need when families are crammed into flats. I find it very hard to believe that some kind of system to swap people around could not be conceived. Introducing financial incentives is certainly a perfectly good way of persuading people to move down and think of others.
This boils down to who you have more sympathy with - those who need to be moved from a home they've lived in for years or those struggling for space in cramped accomodation. Building more council houses is not the whole answer. This is a great example of a disagreement between left and right where the left climbs the moral high ground but the inconvenient truth is that both left and right are driven by a desire to help others.