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Big Boris, Our Prime Minister

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39 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

I dont think it is nuances at all Bud it is more to do with political viewpoints. 

Politicians from both major parties campaigned that , if elected they would get us out of Europe, in 2016 . None of them said that they would try and hinder in every way leaving or that they were actually remainers.  Then they put a remainer in charge of the leave "negotiations " , to get a withdrawal agreement.  A surrender bill that totally favours The Tusk/Barnier junta.  It is not a deal it is a treaty that no one in their right mind would sign . The junta have also said now that they won't make a deal with Johnson because they dont negotiate they are trying to make an example of  Britian , the second biggest economy in their evil little scheme. Once Britain does leave they know the party is over , the project collapses and the junta are looking for gainful employment elsewhere 

 

You're right neither of the main two parties come out of this with any dignity.

 

As an aside TM was considered at one point to be the Leader of the LEAVE campaign, she had always been considered a Eurosceptic and it was a surprise when she came out in favour of REMAIN clearly positioning herself for a bid for leadership of the Tory party in the event LEAVE won - that turned out well for her! :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-theresa-may-could-lead-out-campaign-after-nigel-farage-says-hed-be-delighted-if-she-a6717291.html

 

Again I can understand the frustration of many people with events post-referendum but we couldn't get a good deal from the EU they are protecting there own interests so that's not gonna change no matter what Boris says, a No-Deal Brexit would lead to a 5.5 decrease in GDP even under the revised BoE estimates, in these circumstances is it wrong to give the people a chance to change their minds?

 

FWIW - I think the EU will be able to ride out a No-Deal Brexit for the UK -we're only 60 out of 500 million. 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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Because like it or not, we ARE part of the UK as it currently stands and therefore the SNP have a duty to use their votes as they see fit.


Yup, I’m well aware Scotland are part of the UK
However, my point being. The SNP MP’s (I’m assuming all of them) want to be an independent country from the rest of the UK,
therefore Kiboshing the wishes of the 17.4 million voters (including those in Scotland) that voted leave.
Also, if I’m not mistaken. If Scotland is gained independence they would then have to apply for membership back into the EU.

Ian Blackford quoted this.

So you're not considering any other "ways" of holding a referendum?
"The way it should happen which is the same way as it happened in 2014. What is different of course is we have a UK government now saying that they would try to block that. That is the unacceptable and undemocratic power and I think you know those questions are really for them. Why on earth it's legitimate to oppose Scottish independence but to seek to block the ability of people in Scotland to choose and I don't think is acceptable but equally I don't think it's a sustainable position. And of course it may be put to the test quite soon in a general election, so we'll see the outcome of that".

“The SNP certainly don't want Brexit and we would try to use whatever influence we have which might be significant after an election to stop Brexit happening but also to give Scotland the opportunity to choose independence because ultimately that's the only way we can stop Brexit happening for Scotland and make sure that we never face that prospect in the future.”

So the SNP want to block Brexit which as we all know was put to the people..... (ALL of the UK) and the outcome was to leave.
Now. In the same breath the SNP say that if the Tories rejected a second Scottish independence Referendum...... it would be undemocratic? Where is the democracy in ignoring the 17.4 million?
We can’t pick and chose. So yes, we are part of the UK and should accept the democratic vote.

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What I don’t get is. If Sturgeon is hell bent on Indy Ref 2, why block/Veto the No Deal. Is she hedging her bets that if Indy Ref 2 is a repeat outcome of the first attempt, then at least Scotland are still part of the UK, and by extension still in the EU?
Why should the SNP MP’s get a vote on an issue that effects all of the UK if they don’t want to be part of it?
How dare these politicians take part in the democracy they were elected to.
Send them back

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Good lord, this just shows how poorly informed most of the public are on this, yourself included.
Leaving the EU and single market does not equate to leaving it with no deal for what comes next.
Do you genuinely not understand that?


I certainly get it. Do you honestly believe the UK will overnight become a third world country if we leave with a No Deal?
The UK has the 5th biggest world economy, do you not think we’re capable of maintaining that by striking trade deals with other countries on our own?
Ideally we should leave with a deal........ but one that benefits the UK.

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9 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

You're right neither of the main two parties come out of this with any dignity.

 

As an aside TM was considered at one point to be the Leader of the LEAVE campaign, she had always been considered a Eurosceptic and it was a surprise when she came out in favour of REMAIN clearly positioning herself for a bid for leadership of the Tory party in the event LEAVE won - that turned out well for her! :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-theresa-may-could-lead-out-campaign-after-nigel-farage-says-hed-be-delighted-if-she-a6717291.html

 

Again I can understand the frustration of many people with events post-referendum but we couldn't get a good deal from the EU they are protecting there own interests so that's not gonna change no matter what Boris says, a No-Deal Brexit would lead to a 5.5 decrease in GDP even under the revised BoE estimates, in these circumstances is it wrong to give the people a chance to change their minds?

 

FWIW - I think the EU will be able to ride out a No-Deal Brexit for the UK -we're only 60 out of 500 million. 

 

 

The projections for losses on a no deal leave are purely projections . We get 4% on our exports to the Union , currently currency can fluctuate that on a daily basis . Europe would be battering down our door for "a deal" if we got away with WtO rules , the so called no deal . 

Basically it would be a jail break that , has been seen , the majority of the establishment  on both sides of the Channel do not want , makes you wonder donit?

FWIW a German MEP has already pointed out that the British departure is the equivalent of 20 smaller countries leaving( there are on 27 countriesin the con). We are the second biggest economy in a project that is already teetering on financial collapse 

They are doing their best to make an example of us

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1 minute ago, Russian Saint said:

 


I certainly get it. Do you honestly believe the UK will overnight become a third world country if we leave with a No Deal?
The UK has the 5th biggest world economy, do you not think we’re capable of maintaining that by striking trade deals with other countries on our own?
Ideally we should leave with a deal........ but one that benefits the UK.

 

1. Thats not the question. People did not vote to leave the most damaging way possible to the economy. 

2. Correct, the UK will not maintain its position in the global economy. I don't think there is much doubt at this, it is going to enter a serious period of decline and wont be in the top 20 in future.

"One that benefits the UK". You actually believe all the guff you come out with? Once the UK leaves the EU without a deal it will need to go round begging for whatever deals it can get. What a starting point for any negotiation. The EU isn't going to abandon Ireland to make the Tory party happy either, the final deal is no way going to "benefit the UK".

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3 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

The projections for losses on a no deal leave are purely projections . We get 4% on our exports to the Union , currently currency can fluctuate that on a daily basis . Europe would be battering down our door for "a deal" if we got away with WtO rules , the so called no deal . 

Basically it would be a jail break that , has been seen , the majority of the establishment  on both sides of the Channel do not want , makes you wonder donit?

FWIW a German MEP has already pointed out that the British departure is the equivalent of 20 smaller countries leaving( there are on 27 countriesin the con). We are the second biggest economy in a project that is already teetering on financial collapse 

They are doing their best to make an example of us

Do you understand what WTO rules are? 

It is the worst possible trading position, not something to be happy about!

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1. Thats not the question. People did not vote to leave the most damaging way possible to the economy. 

2. Correct, the UK will not maintain its position in the global economy. I don't think there is much doubt at this, it is going to enter a serious period of decline and wont be in the top 20 in future.
"One that benefits the UK". You actually believe all the guff you come out with? Once the UK leaves the EU without a deal it will need to go round begging for whatever deals it can get. What a starting point for any negotiation. The EU isn't going to abandon Ireland to make the Tory party happy either, the final deal is no way going to "benefit the UK".


1. Thats not the question. People did not vote to leave the most damaging way possible to the economy. 

The choice was a straight “Remain or Leave”

2. Correct, the UK will not maintain its position in the global economy. I don't think there is much doubt at this, it is going to enter a serious period of decline and wont be in the top 20 in future.

I haven’t seen anything to show the UK will drop out the top 20. Could you please share that info?

One that benefits the UK". You actually believe all the guff you come out with?

How is a deal that benefits the UK “Guff”?

So “the final deal is no way going to "benefit the UK". What deal will benefit the UK?

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1 hour ago, theknickerwetter said:

The projections for losses on a no deal leave are purely projections . We get 4% on our exports to the Union , currently currency can fluctuate that on a daily basis . Europe would be battering down our door for "a deal" if we got away with WtO rules , the so called no deal . 

Basically it would be a jail break that , has been seen , the majority of the establishment  on both sides of the Channel do not want , makes you wonder donit?

FWIW a German MEP has already pointed out that the British departure is the equivalent of 20 smaller countries leaving( there are on 27 countriesin the con). We are the second biggest economy in a project that is already teetering on financial collapse 

They are doing their best to make an example of us

WTO rules/so called no deal - a bit pedantic with the terms being used interchangeably.

We voted to leave it's not the job of the EU to be concerned for us, and really what else would you expect?

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13 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

WTO rules/so called no deal - a bit pedantic with the terms being used interchangeably.

We voted to leave it's not the job of the EU to be concerned for us, and really what else would you expect?

It is not a matter of showing concern but they have shown a complete unwillingness to negotiate, which was also pointed out by the Greek finance minister and shows the junta up as being the fascists they are . They were never going to a deal with Britain in the hope that we'd cake in and stay🤭🙀

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10 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

It is not a matter of showing concern but they have shown a complete unwillingness to negotiate, which was also pointed out by the Greek finance minister and shows the junta up as being the fascists they are . They were never going to a deal with Britain in the hope that we'd cake in and stay🤭🙀

Why would the EU be soft touches. Wouldn't make sense. I wouldn't want to be in the EU if they were. 

We can accept or reject any terms proposed. We then have to face the consequences of our decision. Seems fair enough to me. We asked to leave after all, didn't we? 

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13 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

It is not a matter of showing concern but they have shown a complete unwillingness to negotiate, which was also pointed out by the Greek finance minister and shows the junta up as being the fascists they are . They were never going to a deal with Britain in the hope that we'd cake in and stay🤭🙀

Black Forest gateau?

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25 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

It is not a matter of showing concern but they have shown a complete unwillingness to negotiate, which was also pointed out by the Greek finance minister and shows the junta up as being the fascists they are . They were never going to a deal with Britain in the hope that we'd cake in and stay🤭🙀

They negotiated a deal with our last PM.

As for the Greek Finance minister, everyone has an agenda! :rolleyes:

Finally I should have picked you up on this before but the EU is in no way a Fascist Junta.

 

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34 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

They negotiated a deal with our last PM.

As for the Greek Finance minister, everyone has an agenda! :rolleyes:

Finally I should have picked you up on this before but the EU is in no way a Fascist Junta.

 

No they didn't.  May signed a withdrawal agreement which is not a deal , it's a treaty.  

Tusk/Barnier are effectively a junta.  Negotiations are about reaching a workable compromise,  they dont do that they want to dictate. You need to remember that over the centuries Europe has been subject to more repressive regimes than we've had . It has often been left to us to preserve the nation states of Europe 

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13 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

No they didn't.  May signed a withdrawal agreement which is not a deal , it's a treaty.  

Tusk/Barnier are effectively a junta.  Negotiations are about reaching a workable compromise,  they dont do that they want to dictate. You need to remember that over the centuries Europe has been subject to more repressive regimes than we've had . It has often been left to us to preserve the nation states of Europe 

What utter drivel.

The negotiations took some time and May signed a DEAL. Not a good deal but both sides made compromise. Quite simply It's the British government who decided to try to change that deal. Why should the EU come back to the table with a government who want to tear up everything? At least the labour party are talking about a real compromise and the EU may be willing to discuss this. 

As far as history is concerned. You do realise that the British were one of the most oppressive countries the world has seen as far as dominating other nations and slavery is concerned? Glass houses my friend.

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1 hour ago, theknickerwetter said:

No they didn't.  May signed a withdrawal agreement which is not a deal , it's a treaty.  

Tusk/Barnier are effectively a junta.  Negotiations are about reaching a workable compromise,  they dont do that they want to dictate. You need to remember that over the centuries Europe has been subject to more repressive regimes than we've had . It has often been left to us to preserve the nation states of Europe 

Um, a Treaty based on a Deal - again you're being pedantic.

As we've seen over the last few pages both sides made statements during the referendum that are contradictory to their current positions so any and all claims of betrayal are invalid. Before invoking A50 TM should've found out what she could realistically get through Parliament, doubly so after losing her majority in the 20117 GE we are where are due to her cart-before-horse negotiating strategy. TM set her "Red Lines" early on in the negotiations and got the deal she deserved, one that she couldn't get through Parliament and had to go back cap-in-hand to the EU to attempt to for concessions - IMO the EU negotiators were quite right to say No - there were and according to Labour's Shadow Chancellor today on the Andrew Marr Show still are other deals/compromises available. 

Both parties to the Withdrawal Agreement comprised a mixture of elected/unelected appointees as representatives and just because you're unhappy with the outcome it doesn't make your claim of "effectively a junta" correct.

**************************

I'm well aware of the countries history and would probably deconstruct it in a manner different to yours but I don't see what relevance it has in 2019.

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Javid claims a new proposal has been sent to EU.
Eu claim no new proposal, although an "insider" claims UK gov sent back May's treaty/deal/proposal with some lines scored out.
Rudd resigns claiming UK not taking negotiations seriously.
Meanwhile in another reality this is all EU fault for not letting us leave.
Over 3 years of this push but we'll have blue passports to eat.

How do you bake a Dunkirk spirit?
(don't tell them Dunkirk was a retreat, pike!)

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22 hours ago, Russian Saint said:

 


Yup, I’m well aware Scotland are part of the UK
 

 

If you understand that, then I'm struggling to make sense of your point.

There's a difference between where the SNP want to be and where they currently are.

You don't just abandon your responsibilities just because you can't get what you want.

The SNP have a mandate to fight for Scottish issues and the Scottish public are clearly anti-Brexit. They are not there to represent any other part of the UK. That is a job for THEIR MPs. The SNP also were not the party who gave the UK a referendum on the EU. They have no obligation to fight for Brexit.

Edited by oaksoft

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21 hours ago, Russian Saint said:

 


I certainly get it. Do you honestly believe the UK will overnight become a third world country if we leave with a No Deal?
The UK has the 5th biggest world economy, do you not think we’re capable of maintaining that by striking trade deals with other countries on our own?
Ideally we should leave with a deal........ but one that benefits the UK.

 

It's not about any of that. Of course you are correct that we could stand on our own two feet as the UK.

The question is about how fast we can do that.

Can you guarantee that there won't be short term or medium term food or fuel shortages in the next 2-3 years? If you can, you know more than anyone in the UK or EU parliaments.

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6 hours ago, theknickerwetter said:

It is not a matter of showing concern but they have shown a complete unwillingness to negotiate, which was also pointed out by the Greek finance minister and shows the junta up as being the fascists they are . They were never going to a deal with Britain in the hope that we'd cake in and stay🤭🙀

Stuart, comparing the UK to Greece and using phrases like "fascist" and "junta" is ridiculous and childish. f**king grow up.

The Greeks were bankrupt and in no position to negotiate. At all.

Edited by oaksoft

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It's not about any of that. Of course you are correct that we could stand on our own two feet as the UK.
The question is about how fast we can do that.
Can you guarantee that there won't be short term or medium term food or fuel shortages in the next 2-3 years? If you can, you know more than anyone in the UK or EU parliaments.


Of course I can’t guarantee there won’t be bumps on the road, but I’ll flip the question and ask you if you can guarantee there will be?
There seems to be so called experts (Politicians, Economists and suchlike) on both sides of the debate, which side are correct is anyone’s guess.

That question that you just put to me got me thinking. If (and it’s a big if) Scotland gained independence from the UK (keeping in mind we’d need to re apply to gain access to the EU) How would Scotland fair on its own. Would there be a border between Scotland and England (North/South Ireland Backstop scenario)

Watched this earlier today, which lends itself to my post yesterday.



There’s a lot of if’s buts and maybes on this debate, but in my opinion the government must uphold the will of the 17.4 million that voted to leave.

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