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Big Boris, Our Prime Minister

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4 hours ago, Doakes said:

If it was continuing like it started off it would be fine

I would still prefer to be part of Europe in a large and expanding union where my country has the right of veto. Is it perfect? Not in my opinion. I would prefer to influence it from within. 

We joined the rest of the UK in a union which many perhaps believe  has outlived its usefulness. Some want to stay in and others don't. We have no right of veto. The opportunity to influence it from within is therefore diminished. 

Edited by St.Ricky

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1 hour ago, St.Ricky said:

I would still prefer to be part of Europe in a large and expanding union where my country has the right of veto. Is it perfect? Not in my opinion. I would prefer to influence it from within. 

We joined the rest of the UK in a union which many perhaps believe  has outlived its usefulness. Some want to stay in and others don't. We have no right of veto. The opportunity to influence it from within us therefore diminished. 

300 years ago - we have no written constitution, a PM who says he will not implement a law passed by parliament - as one commentator put it the other day we are now sailing into waters marked "Here be Dragons". We live in a devolved country with disputes about which parliament returning EU powers should be restored to and yes up until now courts have upheld that interpretation but courts have changed their minds in the past.

On a practical note with BJ having purged the party the likelihood is the Torie will go into the upcoming election pretty much on the same page of the songbook with Labour all over the place, It remains to be seen if the Lib-Dems have rid themselves of the toxicity from their spell in the coalition government. Opinions on Brexit cross party line for the two major parties and no-one can tell how the vote will split, obviously BJ thinks the Tories will hoover up the majority of the LEAVE vote while REMAIN will be more evenly split allowing the Tories to win the GE - once again I say "Here be Dragons".

Edited by Bud the Baker

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:
2 hours ago, St.Ricky said:

I would still prefer to be part of Europe in a large and expanding union where my country has the right of veto. Is it perfect? Not in my opinion. I would prefer to influence it from within. 

We joined the rest of the UK in a union which many perhaps believe  has outlived its usefulness. Some want to stay in and others don't. We have no right of veto. The opportunity to influence it from within us therefore diminished. 

300 years ago - we have no written constitution, a PM who says he will not implement a law passed by parliament - as one commentator put it the other day we are now sailing into waters marked "Here be Dragons". We live in a devolved country with disputes about which parliament returning EU powers should be restored to and yes up until now courts have upheld that interpretation but courts have changed their minds in the past.

On a practical note with BJ having purged the party the likelihood is the Torie will go into the upcoming election pretty much on the same page of the songbook with Labour all over the place, It remains to be seen if the Lib-Dems have rid themselves of the toxicity from their spell in the coalition government. Opinions on Brexit cross party line for the two major parties and no-one can tell how the vote will split, obviously BJ thinks the Tories will hoover up the majority of the LEAVE vote while REMAIN will be more evenly split allowing the Tories to win the GE - once again I say "Here be Dragons".

Personally I have no time for BJ ...........apart from the fact that he is the one political leader who is willing to implement the result of the referendum, whilst those politicians in Parliament charged with that duty have obfuscated and dithered and downright ignored the will of the people because (for whichever reason) it does not suit them and were he (BJ) to ignore the law and do so, I would applaud him, although I don't think he will. And as an aside if the best political leader Scotland can come up with is NS...........well! we deserve all we get. I would rather have the Big Yin in power he makes a sight more fecking sense than the wee poison dwarf.

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1 hour ago, Bud the Baker said:

300 years ago - we have no written constitution, a PM who says he will not implement a law passed by parliament - as one commentator put it the other day we are now sailing into waters marked "Here be Dragons". We live in a devolved country with disputes about which parliament returning EU powers should be restored to and yes up until now courts have upheld that interpretation but courts have changed their minds in the past.

On a practical note with BJ having purged the party the likelihood is the Torie will go into the upcoming election pretty much on the same page of the songbook with Labour all over the place, It remains to be seen if the Lib-Dems have rid themselves of the toxicity from their spell in the coalition government. Opinions on Brexit cross party line for the two major parties and no-one can tell how the vote will split, obviously BJ thinks the Tories will hoover up the majority of the LEAVE vote while REMAIN will be more evenly split allowing the Tories to win the GE - once again I say "Here be Dragons".

The Chinese proverb.. May you live in interesting times comes to mind. We certainly are. 

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42 minutes ago, jaybee said:

Personally I have no time for BJ ...........apart from the fact that he is the one political leader who is willing to implement the result of the referendum, whilst those politicians in Parliament charged with that duty have obfuscated and dithered and downright ignored the will of the people because (for whichever reason) it does not suit them and were he (BJ) to ignore the law and do so, I would applaud him, although I don't think he will. And as an aside if the best political leader Scotland can come up with is NS...........well! we deserve all we get. I would rather have the Big Yin in power he makes a sight more fecking sense than the wee poison dwarf.

I don't recall a No-Deal Brexit being on the agenda during the referendum, indeed BJ is on record during the campaign saying he thought the UK should stay in the Single Market! My recollection is that the most likely scenarios for the "easiest deal in history" were along the Canada/Norway models - both, as the vernacular goes, fairly soft. 

Full membership of the Single Market would IIRC solve the Backstop problem. :spud5

Edited by Bud the Baker

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14 minutes ago, Bud the Baker said:

I don't recall a No-Deal Brexit being on the agenda during the referendum, indeed BJ is on record during the campaign saying he thought the UK should stay in the Single Market! My recollection is that the most likely scenarios for the "easiest deal in history" were along the Canada/Norway models - both, as the vernacular goes, fairly soft. 

Full membership of the Single Market would IIRC solve the Backstop problem. :spud5

A deal wasn't part of the campaign to leave but Cameron and Osborne said quite vocally that it would mean no single market no customs union , they basically said it would mean leaving everything 

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1 hour ago, theknickerwetter said:

A deal wasn't part of the campaign to leave but Cameron and Osborne said quite vocally that it would mean no single market no customs union , they basically said it would mean leaving everything 

This is nonsense. They constantly talked up how easy new trade deals would be struck. Crippling the country by leaving us unable to properly import / export goods for an extended period of time is not what people voted for.

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1 hour ago, theknickerwetter said:

A deal wasn't part of the campaign to leave but Cameron and Osborne said quite vocally that it would mean no single market no customs union , they basically said it would mean leaving everything 

A lot of this is about nuances and while you're correct about the Cameron's remarks on the Single Market, the Customs Union was barely mentioned during the campaign, even TMs deal had us staying in the EU on existing terms until the current budget runs out at the end of 2020 effectively gaving us 412 years to sort out a Free Trade deal (easiest in history) - we were never told it meant leaving everything. None of this changes what BJ, Farage and no doubt plenty other politicos who are now NoDealers said back then, if anything it just shows what a mess the Brexit referendum campaign was.

Edited by Bud the Baker

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I would still prefer to be part of Europe in a large and expanding union where my country has the right of veto. Is it perfect? Not in my opinion. I would prefer to influence it from within. 
We joined the rest of the UK in a union which many perhaps believe  has outlived its usefulness. Some want to stay in and others don't. We have no right of veto. The opportunity to influence it from within is therefore diminished. 


35 SNP MPs have just vetoed England attempting to leave the EU without a deal.

Quite a lot of influence I reckon

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This is nonsense. They constantly talked up how easy new trade deals would be struck. Crippling the country by leaving us unable to properly import / export goods for an extended period of time is not what people voted for.


I’m afraid it’s true chap. David Cameron did state it’s an “all in or all out”

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.
The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
The news was welcomed by Eurosceptics who have long campaigned for a vote.
France and Germany both warned the UK could not "cherry pick" EU membership.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-21148282

Also strange that within hours of the MP’s blocking a No Deal Brexit, the Bank of England state that a no deal Brexit would be less severe than first thought.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/bank-of-england-revises-impact-of-no-deal-brexit-from-8-to-5-of-gdp

If Brexit is stopped, then democracy is dead in the UK.

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35 SNP MPs have just vetoed England attempting to leave the EU without a deal.

Quite a lot of influence I reckon


What I don’t get is. If Sturgeon is hell bent on Indy Ref 2, why block/Veto the No Deal. Is she hedging her bets that if Indy Ref 2 is a repeat outcome of the first attempt, then at least Scotland are still part of the UK, and by extension still in the EU?
Why should the SNP MP’s get a vote on an issue that effects all of the UK if they don’t want to be part of it?

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What I don’t get is. If Sturgeon is hell bent on Indy Ref 2, why block/Veto the No Deal. Is she hedging her bets that if Indy Ref 2 is a repeat outcome of the first attempt, then at least Scotland are still part of the UK, and by extension still in the EU?
Why should the SNP MP’s get a vote on an issue that effects all of the UK if they don’t want to be part of it?
That's democracy in action.

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26 minutes ago, Russian Saint said:

 


What I don’t get is. If Sturgeon is hell bent on Indy Ref 2, why block/Veto the No Deal. Is she hedging her bets that if Indy Ref 2 is a repeat outcome of the first attempt, then at least Scotland are still part of the UK, and by extension still in the EU?
Why should the SNP MP’s get a vote on an issue that effects all of the UK if they don’t want to be part of it?

 

Because like it or not, we ARE part of the UK as it currently stands and therefore the SNP have a duty to use their votes as they see fit.

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2 hours ago, Bud the Baker said:

A lot of this is about nuances and while you're correct about the Cameron's remarks on the Single Market, the Customs Union was barely mentioned during the campaign, even TMs deal had us staying in the EU on existing terms until the current budget runs out at the end of 2020 effectively gaving us 412 years to sort out a Free Trade deal (easiest in history) - we were never told it meant leaving everything. None of this changes what BJ, Farage and no doubt plenty other politicos who are now NoDealers said back then, if anything it just shows what a mess the Brexit referendum campaign was.

I dont think it is nuances at all Bud it is more to do with political viewpoints. 

Politicians from both major parties campaigned that , if elected they would get us out of Europe, in 2016 . None of them said that they would try and hinder in every way leaving or that they were actually remainers.  Then they put a remainer in charge of the leave "negotiations " , to get a withdrawal agreement.  A surrender bill that totally favours The Tusk/Barnier junta.  It is not a deal it is a treaty that no one in their right mind would sign . The junta have also said now that they won't make a deal with Johnson because they dont negotiate they are trying to make an example of  Britian , the second biggest economy in their evil little scheme. Once Britain does leave they know the party is over , the project collapses and the junta are looking for gainful employment elsewhere 

 

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1 hour ago, Russian Saint said:

 


I’m afraid it’s true chap. David Cameron did state it’s an “all in or all out”

David Cameron has said the British people must "have their say" on Europe as he pledged an in/out referendum if the Conservatives win the election.
The prime minister said he wanted to renegotiate the UK's relationship with the EU and then give people the "simple choice" between staying in under those new terms, or leaving the EU.
The news was welcomed by Eurosceptics who have long campaigned for a vote.
France and Germany both warned the UK could not "cherry pick" EU membership.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-21148282

Also strange that within hours of the MP’s blocking a No Deal Brexit, the Bank of England state that a no deal Brexit would be less severe than first thought.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/04/bank-of-england-revises-impact-of-no-deal-brexit-from-8-to-5-of-gdp

If Brexit is stopped, then democracy is dead in the UK.

 

Good lord, this just shows how poorly informed most of the public are on this, yourself included.

Leaving the EU and single market does not equate to leaving it with no deal for what comes next.

Do you genuinely not understand that?

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39 minutes ago, theknickerwetter said:

I dont think it is nuances at all Bud it is more to do with political viewpoints. 

Politicians from both major parties campaigned that , if elected they would get us out of Europe, in 2016 . None of them said that they would try and hinder in every way leaving or that they were actually remainers.  Then they put a remainer in charge of the leave "negotiations " , to get a withdrawal agreement.  A surrender bill that totally favours The Tusk/Barnier junta.  It is not a deal it is a treaty that no one in their right mind would sign . The junta have also said now that they won't make a deal with Johnson because they dont negotiate they are trying to make an example of  Britian , the second biggest economy in their evil little scheme. Once Britain does leave they know the party is over , the project collapses and the junta are looking for gainful employment elsewhere 

 

You're right neither of the main two parties come out of this with any dignity.

 

As an aside TM was considered at one point to be the Leader of the LEAVE campaign, she had always been considered a Eurosceptic and it was a surprise when she came out in favour of REMAIN clearly positioning herself for a bid for leadership of the Tory party in the event LEAVE won - that turned out well for her! :rolleyes:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-referendum-theresa-may-could-lead-out-campaign-after-nigel-farage-says-hed-be-delighted-if-she-a6717291.html

 

Again I can understand the frustration of many people with events post-referendum but we couldn't get a good deal from the EU they are protecting there own interests so that's not gonna change no matter what Boris says, a No-Deal Brexit would lead to a 5.5 decrease in GDP even under the revised BoE estimates, in these circumstances is it wrong to give the people a chance to change their minds?

 

FWIW - I think the EU will be able to ride out a No-Deal Brexit for the UK -we're only 60 out of 500 million. 

 

 

Edited by Bud the Baker

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